Current Production CD-4 Cartridges

[macdude]

With the discontinuation of the AT440Mla and Mlb, what's next for the CD-4 users out there? Anything else tried and true? I could buy a 440 but the cost of the cartridge and stylus has really gone up. I've been using an AT-12Sa with a Jico Shibata stylus since I got into CD-4 in 2012. I suppose I'll stick with it at this point. I can't afford a NOS 440 these days.

 

[sjcorne]

With the discontinuation of the AT440Mla and Mlb, what's next for the CD-4 users out there?

Apparently there's a 540 now: https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/e7a3d4bc8b248b64/index.html

We'll have to see if it still does CD-4...

 

[DuncanS]

Some while ago when I was musing over whether to 'do' CD4 (I decided against!) I came across the Ortofon Cadenza Black which has a Nude Shibata, meets the bandwidth requirement, but is a MC cartridge so needs a different pre-amp, and the killer is that it is mega expensive at £1825 in the UK!

 

[fredblue]

i hope the 540 is basically a straight swap for the 440MLb because that cart (despite it sounding a bit bright and a bit bass-shy to me) has only truly let me down in spectacular fashion with 2 CD-4's in approx 150 discs; Cat Stevens' "Greatest Hits" and Barry Manilow's "This One's For You", to the point where i've thrown in the towel now! most of Cat Stevens is ok but the Manilow disc is unlistenable / undemodulatable-ubble! though to be fair it is said to be a torture CD-4 title and my disc is in pretty poor shape. tbh i'm not too bothered about either though because a couple of superstar Quaddie conversionistas have managed to conquer these discs already but it is 'a shame'! anyway., where were we? oh yeah! i'd get a NOS 440 if i were you, macdude (if you've not got your heart set on Barry and Cat!)

 

[macdude]

I'm currently stuck in the stage of "is my cartridge/alignment/turntable correct or is it this disk"? Which led me to start looking at what's currently available. I can't say I've had a major issue demodulating disks with what I've got, only one or two, which came from questionable sources anyhow. My old AT-12Sa sounds AWESOME when it's working, so I'd think that'd rule out turntable setup.

 

[macdude]

Has anyone tried the 440MLb? Specs claim a slightly higher frequency response, which we know is conservative if it works with CD-4.

 

[fredblue]

Some while ago when I was musing over whether to 'do' CD4 (I decided against!) I came across the Ortofon Cadenza Black which has a Nude Shibata, meets the bandwidth requirement, but is a MC cartridge so needs a different pre-amp, and the killer is that it is mega expensive at £1825 in the UK!
View attachment 38703

yummy yummy yum yum!
i was planning on doing something not totally dissimilar (was eyeing up an AT MC cart, much less pricey than that Ortofon, model escapes me now but on paper it had spec. enough for CD-4, in cahoots with an Ortofon MCA-76 CD-4 MC preamp) but 'life shit' conspired against it! anyway.. "still alive and well" so maybe "one day tomorrow"..

 

[fredblue]

Has anyone tried the 440MLb? Specs claim a slightly higher frequency response, which we know is conservative if it works with CD-4.

yes, i've used an AT440MLb on an SL1210 Mk2 with either a JVC 4DD-5 or a Grundig Quadro demodulator on 140+ CD-4 discs the last few years and its been the most consistent cart in my setup.

 

[macdude]

yes, i've used an AT440MLb on an SL1210 Mk2 with either a JVC 4DD-5 or a Grundig Quadro demodulator on 140+ CD-4 discs the last few years and its been the most consistent cart in my setup.

Lokks like it may be time to bite the bullet while there is still stock available. I'm using a Technics SL-1100 with the JVC 4DD-5.

 

[fredblue]

Lokks like it may be time to bite the bullet while there is still stock available. I'm using a Technics SL-1100 with the JVC 4DD-5.

sounds like a plan! no time like the present!
if you do go the AT440MLb route, i'd be interested to know which notch on the 30kHz carrier adjustment you can get to on your 4DD-5 before the test discs' tone breaks up, mine used to waver between 3-4 before i swapped it out for the cute lil' Grundig demod which has auto carrier lock on so all that sodding abouts a thing of the past!

 

[Circular Vibes]

I will throw my 2 cents worth in here. I use a 440mlb myself and couldn't be happier. I have no idea what I will do when the stylus wears out. Audio Technica has updated the AT95 and they make shibata, line contact and many other types of styli for it. I have no idea if it works for CD4, but it is more in my budget than the 540 and 740. I use my AT440mlb on the built in demodulators of my Sansui QRX7001 and JVC 5456x. The only CD4 title that gives me problems is Barry Manilow 2.

 

[fredblue]

I will throw my 2 cents worth in here. I use a 440mlb myself and couldn't be happier. I have no idea what I will do when the stylus wears out. Audio Technica has updated the AT95 and they make shibata, line contact and many other types of styli for it. I have no idea if it works for CD4, but it is more in my budget than the 540 and 740. I use my AT440mlb on the built in demodulators of my Sansui QRX7001 and JVC 5456x. The only CD4 title that gives me problems is Barry Manilow 2.

oh yes Matthew, i remember you saying you'd got good CD-4 results from the AT440MLb and that helped me enormously when shopping for bits to cobble together a CD-4 setup.

surprisingly i got through Manilow II with the 440 reasonably unscathed!
..time to burst into song; "looks like we made it..!!"

it still tickles me that some of those Quads that don't have mixes with a shit ton of separation are on CD-4 and then you get a Columbia crazy 4-corner mix on SQ!

 

[sjcorne]

it still tickles me that some of those Quads that don't have mixes with a shit ton of separation are on CD-4 and then you get a Columbia crazy 4-corner mix on SQ!

It's a shame there weren't more CBS-style quad mixes on CD-4. The few I can think of (Pure Prairie League, later Guess Who, Eagles) really show the separation advantage CD-4 has over the matrix systems. There probably weren't more because more channel separation often equals more distortion.

I have the Japanese-pressed CD-4 LP of Deodato 2 (discrete to the point of having a dead channel) and it comes much closer to the discrete master than the SQ does.

I suppose one of quad's great ironies is that the "four-corner" mixing style was adopted specifically for SQ...

 

[kfbkfb]

In 2018-08, I posted a question on the A-T website about using the 540 for CD-4, they answered:

" Thank you for your inquiry. I believe it will. Quad records need a cartridge that can reproduce sound of to 20K Hz and this will."

Kirk Bayne

 

[Circular Vibes]

The Manilow 2 is an uncommon CD4 title. AoQ did a conversion and he did better than I, but artifacts were still there. The 8 track is possibly a different mix. At least it doesn't seem to be the same as the LP. I found that the CD4 had Barry across the rears and backing vocals on front. I found it to be obviously discrete but possibly not the best mix. I will say that wet cleaning CD4 discs is my "secret". As to sound, I admit I like it a bit bright, but my systems seem to be bass heavy and treble light to begin with. My speakers are Mission 700 originals in front and 700 later and smaller versions for rears.

 

[DuncanS]

In 2018-08, I posted a question on the A-T website about using the 540 for CD-4, they answered:

" Thank you for your inquiry. I believe it will. Quad records need a cartridge that can reproduce sound of to 20K Hz and this will."

Kirk Bayne

I thought CD-4 need up to 50kHz as 0-15kHz for F+R, & F-R is Frequency modulated over something like the 20kHz-45kHz bandwidth with 30kHz pilot tone.

 

[kfbkfb]

CD-4 needs fairly good channel separation above 20kHz (at least 12dB, 20dB or more is best),
the demodulator can "flatten" poor frequency response above 20kHz (within reason).

My Shure V-15 III w/MicroRidge (spec. to 25kHz, almost no separation above 20kHz though)
works fairly well with my SH-400 demodulator.

Kirk Bayne

 

[fredblue]

CD-4 needs fairly good channel separation above 20kHz (at least 12dB, 20dB or more is best),
the demodulator can "flatten" poor frequency response above 20kHz (within reason).

My Shure V-15 III w/MicroRidge (spec. to 25kHz, almost no separation above 20kHz though)
works fairly well with my SH-400 demodulator.

Kirk Bayne

did you try an M24H?

afaik that was the TOTL Shure cart where CD-4 was concerned.

i'm in the market for one! (if one comes up in the UK in great nick for no money!

 

[kfbkfb]

In 1975, I bought a $12 Grado CD-4 cartridge (with a spherical stylus!), I bought my Shure
in 1976-08, unfortunately just when Quad was fading away (in the USA), so I never did
try to buy a Shure M24H (I considered the Pickering 4500Q CD-4 cartridge, but decided
to buy the Shure V-15 III instead).

Kirk Bayne

 

[macdude]

sounds like a plan! no time like the present!
if you do go the AT440MLb route, i'd be interested to know which notch on the 30kHz carrier adjustment you can get to on your 4DD-5 before the test discs' tone breaks up, mine used to waver between 3-4 before i swapped it out for the cute lil' Grundig demod which has auto carrier lock on so all that sodding abouts a thing of the past!

Right now it's at the half-way mark, which is where I left it, since it's on the bottom. I never actually lose carrier with the AT-12Sa. I just get some distortion once in a while on louder passages and only on left or right channels (which could be disc wear or simply a notably hard to track LP, like Pick Up the Pieces, AWB.