New Mac Mini 2018 advice

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kap'n krunch

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Hello brothers and sisters...

It has taken me a while longer to finally get a NEW computer and Apple had definitely cooperated by revamping their Mac Mini, which is what I was waiting for.
Since I have been a "Mac head" for a LOOOOOOONG time (1990 anyone?..still have my Power PC aluminum tower from 2005..and I also got my ex her iMac in 2008) and having formatted my backup drives in Mac format, and having my projects in Logic I will get a new Mac Mini soon...

Sooo, the question is...from the new options (yes I KNOW it's REALLY expensive), please let me know what you guys recommend..
I am going for :
  • 3.2GHz 6‑core 8th‑generation Intel Core i7 (Turbo Boost up to 4.6GHz)
  • 16GB 2666MHz DDR4
  • 1TB SSD storage
which makes the total a pretty hefty $2698.26 .... of course , with Logic included and Apple care for 3 years..

As for the sound card, I am pondering ("Are you pondering what I am pondering, Pinky???") about getting a MOTU 828es which is about $1K...

Any advice would be helpful....
 
I'm a pretty hard core Apple user since around 1994. Drank all the koolaid and all that.
Apple isn't Apple anymore after Steve Jobs left. The 2011 and 2012 machines are their flagship models. There are full high spec models available from those years that will match or outperform the current higher spec models and will certainly outlast them. The post-Jobs Macs aren't very Apple-like. More Dell-like build quality actually. Made to be disposable to the point of even soldering the hard drive to the logic board.

I think even with that all said, they're still a better experience than the Windows restricted machines available (Dell, HP, etc). I'm not suggesting anything like Windows over OSX! But I'm very much suggesting to avoid any post-Jobs Mac.

My 2c

PS. The Mac Mini doesn't have a pci card cage. Adapting a pci sound card audio interface would be a PITA! Go for USB or thunderbolt connecting audio interfaces.
 
I'm also a long time Mac user, and while I cannot necessarily chime in on a high end Mini and the sound card questions, I don't really want the only feedback the OP gets to be "Avoid any post-Jobs Mac."

The "flagship" models jimfisheye refers to are so old they don't even support the current version of macOS. Having owned several newer Macs and having worked with and bought many "post-Jobs" Macs for work, I would not at all characterize these newer machines as being not Apple-like nor that they are Dell-like and disposable. And frankly the customer satisfaction numbers for Apple vs. Dell would also agree with this point.

It seems really silly to try and steer someone towards obsolete hardware. Just my two cents.
 
It does seem silly... until you do the math.
We're in weird "in-between" times right now with Apple degrading and no one else jumping into the arena right now. Meanwhile, everyone (Apple included) is selling all these budget machines with circa 2000 specs to folks for browsing facebook. Which makes sense. (Except the part where Apple is still charging the high prices their former actual quality products sold for.)

My current 2011 Macbook Pro cost me $235 on Ebay a year and a half ago. I'd sell this with the current SSD config I have for $800. (For reference) You'd pay $3200 for the closest new model MBP with the closest specs to this 2011 machine. I give that new model 5 years life tops. You won't ever be swapping out the SSD because they literally soldered it to the logic board! This 2011 machine will still be running 10 years from now. These were 20 year products.

"Common sense" suggests I'm out to lunch.
Math suggests I'm right.

What else are you gonna do? Buy some HP and run Windows? Take a trip back to 1997 seeming tech or something?
Linux will be the path forward but... how much DIY do you want to do today? (That's the main complaint with Windows OS. Everything is DIY intensive.)

PS. I'm running 10.13.6 right now but this machine fully supports 10.14. It's true that Apple is intentionally blacklisting some fully compatible older machines from newer OS builds however! 100% busted! Look up dosdude1 on Mac Rumors forum for bug fixed copies of the more recent OSX installers. He also has workarounds for genuinely no longer fully supported machines if you're into that.
10.14 is a little green yet IMHO. (To be fair, I haven't shaken down the latest .4 revision yet.) They started this every other year thing it seems... Let's see if 10.15 ends up being a bug-fixed version of 10.14 (like 10.13 was to 10.12).

PPS. The new models are also only USB-C for the most part. The 2011/2012 machines will have USB 2/3, firewire, and thunderbolt. Are all your accessories USB-C? Because if they're not, that new Mac is gonna look like a Microsoft dongle/hub fest!
 
I'm a pretty hard core Apple user since around 1994. Drank all the koolaid and all that.
Apple isn't Apple anymore after Steve Jobs left. The 2011 and 2012 machines are their flagship models. There are full high spec models available from those years that will match or outperform the current higher spec models and will certainly outlast them. The post-Jobs Macs aren't very Apple-like. More Dell-like build quality actually. Made to be disposable to the point of even soldering the hard drive to the logic board.

I think even with that all said, they're still a better experience than the Windows restricted machines available (Dell, HP, etc). I'm not suggesting anything like Windows over OSX! But I'm very much suggesting to avoid any post-Jobs Mac.

My 2c

PS. The Mac Mini doesn't have a pci card cage. Adapting a pci sound card audio interface would be a PITA! Go for USB or thunderbolt connecting audio interfaces.
Thanks Jim, I know you are a very knowledgeable person .... sooo, I am guessing the 2011-12 ones are as fast as the new ones cause I know that processor speed and all the rest peaked around that time.. so what is your recommendation? A Mac Pro?

EDIT;
the MOTU is Thunderbolt!
 
Recording/mixing/music server, so.. yes..

I’d venture to suggest that for the music server, you could look around for a good used 2014 MacMini. Some new 2014 units are still around, for something like $400-$600. The main purpose of the server would be for playback.

For recording/mixing (e.g. ProTools type) you’d be better off getting a powerful Mac, maybe a MacPro or MacBookPro, in which case you’d be over the $3K line.
 
Thanks Jim, I know you are a very knowledgeable person .... sooo, I am guessing the 2011-12 ones are as fast as the new ones cause I know that processor speed and all the rest peaked around that time.. so what is your recommendation? A Mac Pro?

EDIT;
the MOTU is Thunderbolt!

That's one of the things I'm looking at (processor speed). The SSD is the big advance a few years ago that removed the largest bottleneck from the system.

The price tag on Apple in the past included high end gamer grade hardware and what has seemed to be a pretty robust OS. The professional audio and video community embraced it and absolutely shunned Windows. If you didn't have a very strong level of DIY savvy with Windows you'd end up paying 3x or more at the end of the day between Rip-Off Squad "cleaning" fees and other scams than you would have for a top of the line Apple.

Fast forward to today.
Apple prices are just as high (if not a little bit higher). The hardware build quality is low end Dell-like now. OSX apparently has more development time spent finding ways to disable the older pro Macs from running it than moving forward. Feature regression across the board for all the hardware.
All the arguments for justifying the premium price (which were a stretch for some to begin with) have vanished.

So...

If you need a computer for a music server, you don't need a lot of processing power.
Maybe one of the modern $300 - $400 Windows restricted machines with a Linux install could be a good fit?
It would be new. Some DIY required with the Linux thing. You could use it out of the box with Windows I suppose. There would be at least some level of operation and access to modern-ish software that just worked.
So that's one argument.
It doesn't just sound crazy.

A con would be the Windows experience. Complete luddite computer users seem to get shut down with Windows quicker than they get shut down with OSX. (But I've seen some just as stupid stuff from certain OSX users. I remember a guy that had MacKeeper (malware) downloaded and installed within 4 hours of getting a new machine.)

Paying $2k or $3k for a Mac for a music server though? And it's one of the new degraded ones?
That's a tough sell for me even if I don't consider Windows a reasonable option! This option sounds... crazy!

Now paying that $300 - $800 for a used genuine Jobs-era Mac is making more sense.
Those machines will outlast the new ones as a rule. Making even more sense!

What could go wrong?!

The usual things with buying used of course!
Missed something.
Got scammed.
Some bits got significant use and are more used up than expected.

But then there's the math part where you could get scammed on 4 used machines in a row but you're still ahead because 5 used machines were still cheaper than buying a new one!

Are you at least a little tech savvy?
Is making a USB installer for whichever version of OSX no big deal?
Keeping clones of your various systems with Carbon Copy Cloner? Also no big deal?

If that's all good, treat yourself to one of the 2011/2012 Macs. Put a new SSD in it and enjoy the genuine Apple experience for another decade while everyone else flounders around and spends too much money doing it.

If your response to those questions is "I don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about!", maybe consider something else. Maybe it isn't the best, but it will be new and there will be some hand holding available. A computer with something wrong with the OS install (or some quirky hardware issue) is a paperweight.

The 2011 & 2012 Mac Mini machines have 2 2.5" SATA drive bays and support 16GB ram.
Fine little machines for the price.
The 2018 Mac Mini Disposable features a soldered onto the logic board SSD and no drive bays. Not good.

Mac Pro?
I love my 2009/2010 Mac Pro!
It's a lot of hardware. You'll kind of want to justify that kind of a purchase. It's grossly overpowered for the audio work I do in general. Multitrack recording in a studio setting. Running live sound (including simultaneously recording all the multitrack). Mixing large projects (300+ tracks). Various other whatnot. These machines were more aimed at video editors. I just wanted to treat myself to something over the top 10 years ago now. I was thinking of upgrading the 2 quad core CPUs from the original 3.33GHz to dual 4.something GHz 6 core one of these times. Can't justify that either right now though.
A machine like this would be a bit over the top for a music server! Plenty of hard drive bays though! These go for $1400 - $1800 these day which is a killer price if you need one!
 
That's one of the things I'm looking at (processor speed). The SSD is the big advance a few years ago that removed the largest bottleneck from the system.

The price tag on Apple in the past included high end gamer grade hardware and what has seemed to be a pretty robust OS. The professional audio and video community embraced it and absolutely shunned Windows. If you didn't have a very strong level of DIY savvy with Windows you'd end up paying 3x or more at the end of the day between Rip-Off Squad "cleaning" fees and other scams than you would have for a top of the line Apple.

Fast forward to today.
Apple prices are just as high (if not a little bit higher). The hardware build quality is low end Dell-like now. OSX apparently has more development time spent finding ways to disable the older pro Macs from running it than moving forward. Feature regression across the board for all the hardware.
All the arguments for justifying the premium price (which were a stretch for some to begin with) have vanished.

So...

If you need a computer for a music server, you don't need a lot of processing power.
Maybe one of the modern $300 - $400 Windows restricted machines with a Linux install could be a good fit?
It would be new. Some DIY required with the Linux thing. You could use it out of the box with Windows I suppose. There would be at least some level of operation and access to modern-ish software that just worked.
So that's one argument.
It doesn't just sound crazy.

A con would be the Windows experience. Complete luddite computer users seem to get shut down with Windows quicker than they get shut down with OSX. (But I've seen some just as stupid stuff from certain OSX users. I remember a guy that had MacKeeper (malware) downloaded and installed within 4 hours of getting a new machine.)

Paying $2k or $3k for a Mac for a music server though? And it's one of the new degraded ones?
That's a tough sell for me even if I don't consider Windows a reasonable option! This option sounds... crazy!

Now paying that $300 - $800 for a used genuine Jobs-era Mac is making more sense.
Those machines will outlast the new ones as a rule. Making even more sense!

What could go wrong?!

The usual things with buying used of course!
Missed something.
Got scammed.
Some bits got significant use and are more used up than expected.

But then there's the math part where you could get scammed on 4 used machines in a row but you're still ahead because 5 used machines were still cheaper than buying a new one!

Are you at least a little tech savvy?
Is making a USB installer for whichever version of OSX no big deal?
Keeping clones of your various systems with Carbon Copy Cloner? Also no big deal?

If that's all good, treat yourself to one of the 2011/2012 Macs. Put a new SSD in it and enjoy the genuine Apple experience for another decade while everyone else flounders around and spends too much money doing it.

If your response to those questions is "I don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about!", maybe consider something else. Maybe it isn't the best, but it will be new and there will be some hand holding available. A computer with something wrong with the OS install (or some quirky hardware issue) is a paperweight.

The 2011 & 2012 Mac Mini machines have 2 2.5" SATA drive bays and support 16GB ram.
Fine little machines for the price.
The 2018 Mac Mini Disposable features a soldered onto the logic board SSD and no drive bays. Not good.

Mac Pro?
I love my 2009/2010 Mac Pro!
It's a lot of hardware. You'll kind of want to justify that kind of a purchase. It's grossly overpowered for the audio work I do in general. Multitrack recording in a studio setting. Running live sound (including simultaneously recording all the multitrack). Mixing large projects (300+ tracks). Various other whatnot. These machines were more aimed at video editors. I just wanted to treat myself to something over the top 10 years ago now. I was thinking of upgrading the 2 quad core CPUs from the original 3.33GHz to dual 4.something GHz 6 core one of these times. Can't justify that either right now though.
A machine like this would be a bit over the top for a music server! Plenty of hard drive bays though! These go for $1400 - $1800 these day which is a killer price if you need one!

Great advice, thanks a lot!!!
No , I am not tech savvy but I am not a complete ignoramus.. AFAIK (minor gripe) the SSD drives are great and fast but as opposed to disk drives, when they die, you can't rescue any info..

Yes, I usually have several external drives and one dedicated to Time Machine...

A Mac Pro from 2010 sounds like a great option, but , are the cooling fans loud?
 
Great advice, thanks a lot!!!
No , I am not tech savvy but I am not a complete ignoramus.. AFAIK (minor gripe) the SSD drives are great and fast but as opposed to disk drives, when they die, you can't rescue any info..

Yes, I usually have several external drives and one dedicated to Time Machine...

A Mac Pro from 2010 sounds like a great option, but , are the cooling fans loud?

There's no reasonable reason to shy away from SSD's. HDD's can fail catastrophically too. You keep backup volumes with any hard drive. Otherwise, you know... why not just delete all your files right now and get it over with, right? (/s if that wasn't obvious there) SSD's are literally the one computer advance of note in the last 10 years and the reason everything sped up 5x - 10x around 2009. (That's when I adopted them anyway.) The arguments against them are ludicrous IMHO because the failure rates and fragility for HDDs are magnitudes higher. HDD's are still available in larger sizes and still relevant for data servers though.

I just had someone douse their Macbook Pro last week. Took out the screen and the SSD. Somehow avoided the logic board (most of the value of the machine). I took the SSD enclosure apart, blasted the circuit board with isopropyl and blew out the water under the chips. Let it dry off well. Drive mounted right up and I cloned it to a new drive. (I believe the circuits were stressed and it's not to be trusted to keep using.) If it would have been a mechanical HDD in this scenario, there would have been no recovery! This dude still isn't going to bother plugging in his little external backup drive to let Time Machine automatically run a backup even after this and another sermon from me either. Some people... but I digress.

The Mac Pro has just a tank of an enclosure. 6 drive bays. Everything is serviceable/mod'able. Supports up to 128GB ram.
The fans are not quiet and you absolutely can not have it in the same room you listen in. It doesn't just scream but you can't have it in your control room/listening room.

It's been a great machine. I should be pretty setup for another 10 years. Maybe I'll even upgrade CPUs, we'll see. I think it would be silly overpowered for a music server though.

A Mac Mini with a SSD for your system and maybe a 2TB 2.5" drive in the 2nd bay might be a plan. You could get a pair of 4TB USB externals (primary and it's backup) for more storage. Probably do that for around $500. Spending $1400 or so for a monster Mac Pro tower if you don't need the horsepower... hmmm...

One 'con' on the Mac Pro might be that it's pre thunderbolt. If you don't have any TB accessories and don't plan to, it's a moot point.
 
There's no reasonable reason to shy away from SSD's. HDD's can fail catastrophically too. You keep backup volumes with any hard drive. Otherwise, you know... why not just delete all your files right now and get it over with, right? (/s if that wasn't obvious there) SSD's are literally the one computer advance of note in the last 10 years and the reason everything sped up 5x - 10x around 2009. (That's when I adopted them anyway.) The arguments against them are ludicrous IMHO because the failure rates and fragility for HDDs are magnitudes higher. HDD's are still available in larger sizes and still relevant for data servers though.

I just had someone douse their Macbook Pro last week. Took out the screen and the SSD. Somehow avoided the logic board (most of the value of the machine). I took the SSD enclosure apart, blasted the circuit board with isopropyl and blew out the water under the chips. Let it dry off well. Drive mounted right up and I cloned it to a new drive. (I believe the circuits were stressed and it's not to be trusted to keep using.) If it would have been a mechanical HDD in this scenario, there would have been no recovery! This dude still isn't going to bother plugging in his little external backup drive to let Time Machine automatically run a backup even after this and another sermon from me either. Some people... but I digress.

The Mac Pro has just a tank of an enclosure. 6 drive bays. Everything is serviceable/mod'able. Supports up to 128GB ram.
The fans are not quiet and you absolutely can not have it in the same room you listen in. It doesn't just scream but you can't have it in your control room/listening room.

It's been a great machine. I should be pretty setup for another 10 years. Maybe I'll even upgrade CPUs, we'll see. I think it would be silly overpowered for a music server though.

A Mac Mini with a SSD for your system and maybe a 2TB 2.5" drive in the 2nd bay might be a plan. You could get a pair of 4TB USB externals (primary and it's backup) for more storage. Probably do that for around $500. Spending $1400 or so for a monster Mac Pro tower if you don't need the horsepower... hmmm...

One 'con' on the Mac Pro might be that it's pre thunderbolt. If you don't have any TB accessories and don't plan to, it's a moot point.
I got my first mac in 1995 and have been working on a mac exclusively since then. I never got an iphone because it was a closed platform from the beginning and the toxic "apple store" nonsense, went straight to android, and i'm sad to say my imac pro that I got a year ago will be the last mac I own. It's a piece of shit. My next computer will be a monster custom linux machine that will be three times as powerful as the imac pro and probably cost half its price. I'll have to start working in Windows in a virtual machine on some of my programs, but it is what it is... I do love MacOS X, but that alone can no longer sustain everything else.

Re HDs though, my HHDs have been more reliable, I have to say. The one big SSD I had ended up as a paper weight after 2 years, and there was no special reason, the thing just died. On the other hand, one of my HHDs here has been in operations for 12 (!) years with no issues whatsoever. Just my personal experience. I do back up everything wholesale online now, I just can't lose any data, and the cost is super low these days for online back up (crashplan, for example, or AWS if you're savvy enough). So if noise is the main issue, SSDs of course are better, but more costly - both when you buy it the first time and when you need to replace it when the thing dies on you...
 
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