Petition to UMG to release the early Steely Dans in 5.1

[MrSmithers]

Thanks so much Humprof et all for your efforts in getting this put to the top of the pops...

You may say I’m a dreamer but I don’t necessarily think it’s game over... UMG is up for sale! What you’ve done is start some whispers in Santa Monica that may lead to bigger things....

If all else fails we’ve got a great novel/movie! Vaults, pitch forks, sources, secretive files etc. We could sell it to Universal Pictures?! Oh the irony...

Is it ok to ask which single album is finished? I think Ryan may have given it away (Pretzel Logic)?!

Anyways, there really was nothing to lose and I think we can only benefit by more people knowing about what’s out there...

Cheers

 

[4-earredwonder]

Thanks so much Humprof for your efforts in getting this put to the top of the pops...

You may say I’m a dreamer but I don’t necessarily think it’s game over... UMG is up for sale! What you’ve done is start some whispers in Santa Monica that may lead to bigger things....

If all else fails we’ve got a great novel/movie! Vaults, pitch forks, sources, secretive files etc. We could sell it to Universal Pictures?! Oh the irony...

Is it ok to ask which single album is finished? I think Ryan may have given it away (Pretzel Logic)?!

Anyways, there really was nothing to lose and I think we can only benefit by more people knowing about what’s out there...

Cheers

Mr Smithers, supposedly Pretzel Logic is completed and QUAD masters of Countdown and Can't Buy A Thrill do exist and the only unfinished remix is Aja. All three could comfortably be accommodated on a single BD~A!

Wonder who is going to buy UMG [perhaps the largest of ALL the Majors which of course includes the Beatles catalogue]? Hmmmmm! Beatles for Sale [yet, again]?

 

[MrSmithers]

Mr Smithers, supposedly Pretzel Logic is completed and QUAD masters of Countdown and Can't Buy A Thrill do exist and the only unfinished remix is Aja. All three could comfortably be accommodated on a single BD~A!

Wonder who is going to buy UMG [perhaps the largest of ALL the Majors which of course includes the Beatles catalogue]? Hmmmmm!

Maybe we could sort it with BA rather then BD-A?!

 

[4-earredwonder]

Maybe we could sort it with BA rather then BD-A?!

View attachment 33252

Are you referring to Mr. Tease, Mr. Smithers as I'm certain the BA refers to BADASSSSSSSS!

 

[MrSmithers]

Are you referring to Mr. Tease, Mr. Smithers as I'm certain the BA refers to BADASSSSSSSS!

Just don"t get him on any plane...

To be honest I don't really know what the pretzel logic was in said execs not giving the green light...

To me the decision was...

 

[4-earredwonder]

Just don"t get him on any plane...

To be honest I don't really know what the pretzel logic was in said execs not giving the green light...

To me the decision was...

But since when, Mr. Smithers, has anything the major record companies accomplished been in any way UNCOMPLICATED? They royally screwed up EVERY attempt at making Quad/Surround a viable format, have toyed with every conceivable format known to man, screwed their artists out of royalties, destroyed or lost precious masters [and multitracks] and wonder why revenues have fallen to precipitous lows.

DUH!

 

[MrSmithers]

But since when, Mr. Smithers, has anything the major record companies accomplished been in any way UNCOMPLICATED? They royally screwed up EVERY attempt at making Quad/Surround a viable format, have toyed with every conceivable format known to man, screwed their artists out of royalties, destroyed or lost precious masters [and multitracks] and wonder why revenues have fallen to precipitous lows.

DUH!

And then went to lossy streaming. One word - Dickheads!

Man we are like the last knight in Indiana Jones protecting the sacred quad. If only these people could hear it man?! There is no way a stereo track can beat a decent MULTICHANNEL mix. I really would like to be a fly on the wall at UMG when the guy that can ok it hears PL (or others) but then says 'nah not going to work' and then signs off. It just doesn't make sense?!

 

[4-earredwonder]

And then went to lossy streaming. One word - Dickheads!

Man we are like the last knight in Indiana Jones protecting the sacred quad. If only these people could hear it man?! There is no way a stereo track can beat a decent MULTICHANNEL mix. I really would like to be a fly on the wall at UMG when the guy that can ok it hears PL (or others) but then says 'nah not going to work' and then signs off. It just doesn't make sense?!

The real problem, Mr. Smithers, is when the lawyers and accountants took over the music business [and just about every other major corporation]. Their bottom Line......Will it Sell? Will it make a MAJOR profit? If today's CEOs don't produce, they'll quickly be replaced. Which is why QUAD/5.1 died. There was NO instantaneous gratification as when DVD took the world by storm by almost immediately supplanting every other video format. Not even RBCD had that distinction and now all physical media is suffering as you intimated ... to be replaced by LOSSY streaming. And of course it's lossy.......to think the majors would give us the sound of their precious master tapes.

And you're correct.........Hearing music in SURROUND is a trip 'n a half......almost everything sounds better in hi res QUAD/5.1. But I think we've passed that stage and are fortunate to get the occasional surround remix. Throw the dogs....a bone!

Even Indiana Jones had a happy ending. As more and more corporate giants swallow up the entertainment/music/film businesses, quality will suffer and only the TOP acts and Marvel Comics which guarantee huge returns on their investments will prosper and originality/Imagination will be remnants of the past.

 

[mandrix]

Admittedly I didn't read every post -I did sign the petition- but my understanding is there are misssing tracks for Aja.

 

[rtbluray]

Admittedly I didn't read every post -I did sign the petition- but my understanding is there are misssing tracks for Aja.

That’s correct. The multitrack tapes are missing for “Black Cow” and “Aja”. It prevented Steely Dan and Elliot Scheiner from mixing the album in 5.1 Surround in the late 90s for a DTSCD release. Then they still could not mix the album in 5.1 Surround when they were trying to release the Steely Dan albums on SACD in the 2000s.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

All is not lost in my opinion.

At minimum we got noticed , prior to that UMG never knew we existed , and we do buy.......5.1 at a premium price.


They MUST release music in order to survive as a label......so it stands to reason our request may yet come to some sort of fruition . They don't seem to be making much money releasing the same stereo crap year after year, so it stands to reason "something "surroundwise will surely occur. It may not be Dan , but it will happen because there is a market for that niche product.

 

[bmoura]

To be honest I don't really know what the pretzel logic was in said execs not giving the green light...

The lack of artist approval for the Steely Dan albums to be reissued is the key part of the puzzle here. As it has been in the past. Not "the execs".

 

[rtbluray]

The lack of artist approval for the Steely Dan albums to be reissued is the key part of the puzzle here. As it has been in the past. Not "the execs".

So I was right then.
It IS Steely Dan who are holding up any future reissues.
That’s a rotten shame...

 

[Clint Eastwood]

The lack of artist approval for the Steely Dan albums to be reissued is the key part of the puzzle here. As it has been in the past. Not "the execs".

It appears that artists don't always impact the release....Van Morrison publicly discouraged people from buying Moondance in surround...but it was released anyway...does Steely Dan have ownership of the music in question...and how does Becker's death affect this now?

 

[humprof]

So I was right then.
It IS Steely Dan who are holding up any future reissues.
That’s a rotten shame...

Nothing I've heard sheds any light on what role, if any, the artist is playing in this, Ryan (and Brian). Maybe Steely Dan had some kind of “standing order” in place with regard to reissues, but I doubt anyone has gone to Fagen about this recently. As Clint (and others) have said—and old interviews support this—Becker and Fagen were friendly to surround in the past. Becker went even further: he was a genuine enthusiast, I think, the one who most actively consulted on Scheiner’s existing SD mixes. But even Fagen reportedly wanted Sunken Condos mixed for surround (though gave up on it ever happening in the current climate). Possible that they would veto anything other than an “all or nothing” deal, as (I think) they did with the 1999 remasters, though that wouldn’t explain why Gaucho got released in surround, not once but twice.

What little the agent told me (after speaking with the exec) points to the "strictly business" explanation: they’re reluctant to spend the money on the remixing, manufacturing, and marketing for any new reissues unless they can be confident of generating a big enough profit. Why they don’t want to do anything with Pretzel Logic alone—whose 5.1 mix is apparently the only one that is more or less in the can—they won’t say. But I suspect, and I’m just speculating, that it has to do with what 4EW said: even a bird in hand is not worth their trouble unless they think they can make it turn a major profit. And major profit, according to their post-2016 thinking (this is Ryan's analysis), seems to involve big, bloated, box sets. (Although I wonder what the numbers on the Tull sets are? We all agree that those are bargains, and Universal distributes them in the States, after all...). Old, unimaginative paradigm—obviously there are better, nimbler, more efficient, less expensive ways to bring a product to market and get it to sell. But start with the orthodox groupthink of any big corporation which insists that certain questions have already been decided, and add to that the precarious dynamics that, as Jon reminds us, are governing the industry right now, and you have an environment that's not exactly conducive to bold risk-taking...

 

[4-earredwonder]

Nothing I've heard sheds any light on what role, if any, the artist is playing in this, Ryan (and Brian). Maybe Steely Dan had some kind of “standing order” in place with regard to reissues, but I doubt anyone has gone to Fagen about this recently. As Clint (and others) have said—and old interviews support this—Becker and Fagen were friendly to surround in the past. Becker went even further: he was a genuine enthusiast, I think, the one who most actively consulted on Scheiner’s existing SD mixes. But even Fagen reportedly wanted Sunken Condos mixed for surround (though gave up on it ever happening in the current climate). Possible that they would veto anything other than an “all or nothing” deal, as (I think) they did with the 1999 remasters, though that wouldn’t explain why Gaucho got released in surround, not once but twice.

What little the agent told me (after speaking with the exec) points to the "strictly business" explanation: they’re reluctant to spend the money on the remixing, manufacturing, and marketing for any new reissues unless they can be confident of generating a big enough profit. Why they don’t want to do anything with Pretzel Logic alone—whose 5.1 mix is apparently the only one that is more or less in the can—they won’t say. But I suspect, and I’m just speculating, that it has to do with what 4EW said: even a bird in hand is not worth their trouble unless they think they can make it turn a major profit. And major profit, according to their post-2016 thinking (this is Ryan's analysis), seems to involve big, bloated, box sets. (Although I wonder what the numbers on the Tull sets are? We all agree that those are bargains, and Universal distributes them in the States, after all...). Old, unimaginative paradigm—obviously there are better, nimbler, more efficient, less expensive ways to bring a product to market and get it to sell. But start with the orthodox groupthink of any big corporation which insists that certain questions have already been decided, and add to that the precarious dynamics that, as Jon reminds us, are governing the industry right now, and you have an environment that's not exactly conducive to bold risk-taking...

At the VERY least, if the QUAD masters for Countdown and Can't Buy a Thrill still exist and we know Pretzel Logic's 5.1 remix is 'resting comfortably' in the can, why not release those on a SINGLE BD~A and charge appropriately. I know that would sell!

As for AJA, release it as a stand alone BD~A first with the Stereo hi res version and then with the existing 5.1 remixes and the two missing multitracks in up mixed versions.

 

[ar surround]

Let me speculate as to why a single "in the can" mix doesn't get released. Perhaps the gross sales are not sufficient to justify the "soft" costs...accounting, marketing, and especially legal...as well as tying up the associated staff. Big corporations seem to thrive only on large deals because that's how their structures are set up...too much governance. Small,"road kill" deals consume relatively too many resources.

And even though a 5.1 mix is extant, there might yet be a whole lot of legal crap to delve through to get it to market. I'm sure Audio Fidelity went through the ringer while grinding through the legal matters with the labels, artists, (writers?) In my business, it always amazed me at how difficult people could become when you offered to buy something from them that was heretofore considered of little value or even a burden.

The Chicago and Doobie Brothers Quadios...well there's probably enough content there to justify the time and money. So why can't the remaining Elton John 5.1's be packaged into a single set similar to the Quadio's? Beats me.

 

[4-earredwonder]

Let me speculate as to why a single "in the can" mix doesn't get released. Perhaps the gross sales are not sufficient to justify the "soft" costs...accounting, marketing, and especially legal...as well as tying up the associated staff. Big corporations seem to thrive only on large deals because that's how their structures are set up...too much governance. Small,"road kill" deals consume relatively too many resources.

And even though a 5.1 mix is extant, there might yet be a whole lot of legal crap to delve through to get it to market. I'm sure Audio Fidelity went through the ringer while grinding through the legal matters with the labels, artists, (writers?) In my business, it always amazed me at how difficult people could become when you offered to buy something from them that was heretofore considered of little value or even a burden.

The Chicago and Doobie Brothers Quadios...well there's probably enough content there to justify the time and money. So why can't the remaining Elton John 5.1's be packaged into a single set similar to the Quadio's? Beats me.

It's absolutely criminal that Universal has not seen fit to release the existing remixed Elton John albums. EJ's 5.1 SACDs are among the BEST out there. Surely John himself wouldn't be opposed to their release. So what's the REAL hold~up?????

And if Universal doesn't want to get their hands soiled.....license them to UK's Dutton Vocalion!

 

[rtbluray]

(Although I wonder what the numbers on the Tull sets are? We all agree that those are bargains, and Universal distributes them in the States, after all...).

The Tull sets are actually distributed by Warner Music, not Universal, but I agree. They are amazing, well-priced sets, and many have sold out from many stores, so they do sell well.
I think the main issue is that Steely Dan aren’t ones to want include any kind of extra material in any kind of reissue, so apart from straight remasters and 5.1 Surround mixes, we probably won’t see anything else released from them, so that really doesn’t fit into Universal’s current box set model.

 

[rtbluray]

The Chicago and Doobie Brothers Quadios...well there's probably enough content there to justify the time and money. So why can't the remaining Elton John 5.1's be packaged into a single set similar to the Quadio's? Beats me.

Either it’s because Elton has not authorized their release, or Universal just aren’t smart enough to realize what they’ve got!
I agree that a Blu-Ray box set with “Elton John”, “Tumbleweed Connection”, “Madman Across the Water”, “Honky Chateau”, “Don’t Shoot Me, I’m Only the Piano Player”, “Goodbye Yellow Brick Road” (already on Blu-Ray), “Caribou”, “Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy”, “Rock of the Westies”, and “Blue Moves” would be a contender for the greatest surround sound release of all time!

I always wondered why Universal never released more of these 5.1 mixes during their HFPA Blu-Ray initiative. They would have been better release choices than several that they did release...