Quaddities: This One's for You -- Barry Manilow (CD4) Listenable Copy?

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Eggplant

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Since 2002/2003
Joined
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Huntington Beach, CA
Four Top 40 hits, including one #1.
One of the very last pop quad releases, this album has to be near the top of many collector lists just for the content.
One track, Daybreak, was actually the only quad cut to chart into 1978, making it the format's swan song.

Now for the bad news.

One of two pop titles released in CD-4 only -- God only knows why. That wouldn't be much of a problem but for the fact that parts of the album are unlistenable due to horrendous distortion.

Only a cruel Quad God could take one of the biggest albums ever offered in the format, release a botched quad disc and then cancel the promised quad tape.

I have only my copy to judge, but I've heard they're all bad.
One time I'd sure love to be wrong.

What went awry?

I never read anything about this, but here are my observations.

Early CD-4 pressings were pretty bad: laboratory perfection ran smack into crap grey vinyl. To minimize -- a relative term here -- distortion, albums were compressed, sonically (squishing dynamic range) and physically (restricting grooves to the disc's outer rim). Arista, latecomer to the format in 1976, generally had decent CD-4 pressings that benefited from incremental improvements. Said improvements included a wider dynamic range and the ability to cut grroves closer to the center. Just compare any Arista CD-4 to, say, an early Warner one and the difference is apparent.

But in their excitement, someone forgot who they were dealing with.
Manilow -- the King of Dynamic.

He virtually invented the explosive ballad, the kind that starts soft and low and ends like a nuclear bomb.
I just listened to this tonight and man, does this thing get loud. Somebody got a little carried away with NOT compressing this enough. Two of the hits -- the title track and Daybreak demodulate just fine. But then A) they don't build to an apocalyptic climax, and B) they're both near the record's outer edge, so not so prone to distortion anyway.

As for the two bigger hits ... ugh.
When too loud meets inner groove, it gets ugly.
Looks Like We Made It sounds like it just might make it until the final, key-changed chorus when that same Quad God throws lightning bolts of distortion. But that's a picnic compared to Weekend in New England, whose entire second half is a hellstorm of audio terror rained down by You-Know-Who.

For all this audio misery to be slogged through, how's the mix?
Call it "Arista Eh" -- the same malady afflcting previous Manilow's and Eric Carmen's solo debut.
Druns front, strings rear, but nothing's entirely discrete. Background vocals sometimes (mostly) in rears, but then also in front. And my pet peeve: lead vocal in all channels almost equally. Can't stand that.

Dunno what equipment Tab used on my dts conversion, but I could swear I got a better result on the old B&O back in the day.
Anybody get those two tracks to work, maybe by adjusting carrier level or something?
Anything?

Sure like to know who was in charge of Arista quality control for that release.
"Sounds good!
Let's ship it!"
 
my CD-4 copy of this one is in pretty rough shape so it may be beyond hope, i recall i couldn't get it to demodulate too well last time i tried, so i gave up.. but knowing that the mix is fairly unadventurous with vocals all round, perhaps backing off on the separation might just sneak it through without the splatting. when i get the old Quad gear setup again i'll give it another try.
 
The '70s were a time of erratic vinyl quality when it came to Lp's (not very much so 45's, which were generally well pressed), and particularly--but not exclusively--some indie plants, and I can only wonder who Arista was using at that time. I found their Lp vinyl to trend toward the thin and slightly noisy (the best labels for vinyl quality at that time? I'd say RCA and MCA. Capitol and Columbia were more erratic, IMO).

Quality control wasn't always what it should have been. For instance, even Columbia could screw up. I remember having to go through multiple copies of Loggins & Messina's FULL SAIL to get a pressing that didn't have a glitch on the opening track, "Lahaina." Just one example, and that's not taking into account a problem that still exists: the slightly (or not so slightly) off-center pressing. But that's an understandable risk of record-making; distortion as has been described for the Manilow Lp is generally unusual, and may have been due to bad cutting.

For the Manilow quad, there are bad copies out there, but the entire press run? Seems hard to believe, but we can be fairly certain it was a pressing where not a lot of copies were made, as labels were phasing out quad by this point, even if they didn't let us in on that fact.

Had there been any justice, all quad pressings would have come from Germany or Japan, where quality control was very high; I can't honestly remember ever hearing a bad one from either country, regardless of mono, stereo, quad.

You might want to go over to 45 cat's subdivision, 45 worlds, which has a section for vinyl Lp's. There's a guy named WBlabel who is an expert about pressings of all kinds and eras; he might be helpful. I don't know if the Manilow quad is listed there, and it is a younger site than its 45 cousin. Worth a shot, and he also posts elsewhere, like Steve Hoffman's forum, so that might be worth a shot, too.

ED :)
 
There is a story about this album, AQ-4090. Allegedly, or something like this, the engineers knew that this was going to be the very last quadradisc they made for Arista, so they put all of the tolerances to the max. If you look at that LP, the run out groove is massive as the audio is squished to the outer edges of the LP. Accordingly, only the very best CD-4 setups would play the thing without distortion. I have a real good rip of the title song on my PC that I did myself a few years ago. I think I actually recorded in the entire LP but I am not sure where I stored it, but I do remember that it came out fairly well as my copy was bought new in 1976 (or whatever) and it was only played by me a few times with a Shure M-24, so no damage from the needle.

There are quite a few hits on it, and it was a very big album of that day. If it's something people want I could see if I can dig out my original rip. As I recall it came out fairly well.
 
oh Jon! its really scarce now on CD-4! if you have a great demodulated transfer of a mint copy you should back it up twice, thrice, quadruple! (imho) :giggle:
 
There is a story about this album, AQ-4090. Allegedly, or something like this, the engineers knew that this was going to be the very last quadradisc they made for Arista, so they put all of the tolerances to the max. If you look at that LP, the run out groove is massive as the audio is squished to the outer edges of the LP. Accordingly, only the very best CD-4 setups would play the thing without distortion. I have a real good rip of the title song on my PC that I did myself a few years ago. I think I actually recorded in the entire LP but I am not sure where I stored it, but I do remember that it came out fairly well as my copy was bought new in 1976 (or whatever) and it was only played by me a few times with a Shure M-24, so no damage from the needle.

There are quite a few hits on it, and it was a very big album of that day. If it's something people want I could see if I can dig out my original rip. As I recall it came out fairly well.
Jon..
Please do your best to find it...coming from a "syroupy music" fan... I'll hold my breath...
 
I'll second Jon's comment about this album. I remember reading on the forum in years past that this album was notoriously difficult to demodulate cleanly, but I'm having a hard time finding the thread, so I may have read it on one of the linked websites.
 
Why doesn't Dutton Vocalion just release this QUAD treasure on SACD? And some Melissa Manchester QUADs, as well!

I can attest that a lot of the vinyl in the early 70's was RECYCLED. READ somewhere, because of the oil 'crisis' at the time, they took all the unsold Vinyl and melted it down with its paper labels, intact, causing inclusions which didn't translate well, especially to finicky [to begin with] CD~4.

I remember taking back vinyl record after vinyl record to my local record store for replacements only to find the replacements were defective, as well. NO Virgin vinyl back in that day! [Oops, according to below post, RCA's Dynaflex was virgin vinyl]

READ POST #48: https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/vinyl-lps-now-vs-back-in-the-day.1804817/page-3
 
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a rough translation of the article for English speaking QQ members:

The CD-4 record "Barry Manilow - This One's For You" (AQ-4090) is the last Arista CD-4 record.

The record company and the CD-4 engineer obviously wanted to show the potential in the CD-4 system again in 1976 and have therefore gone all the way to the modulation limits.

For the CD-4 mix, they were well aware that the record would cause considerable trouble for most of the demodulators. In particular, the songs in the anyway critical inner circle have extremely high levels.

The strong deflection of the record grooves can be seen on page 1 song 5 "Weekend In New England" even with the naked eye.

Only a few demodulators, including the JVC CD4-50, are known to play this disc without distortion. Responsible for this is the built-in demodulators CD-4 IC 392.

Quadro friend Wolfgang Nehles and I wanted to review this story in a small test.

First, we heard the record on the well-known SH-400. The player was a DUAL 741Q equipped with JVC X-2 used. The distortions put in the 4th song of the first side "Jump Shout Boogie" and increased until Song 5 "Weekend In New England" so much that Barry Manilow's voice was no longer recognizable.

Then we checked how the Denon UDA-100, finally made in 1976, coped with the record in CD-4 mode. As a player now served a JVC QL-10 equipped with JVC X-1. But the result was similarly miserable.

On 06.11.2008 we accepted an invitation of the quadraphonic expert Edgar Leinung to Neukirchen-Vlyn. Mr. Leinung operates a television and radio business and had in his hi-fi studio a test installation with various demodulators, including the JVC CD4-50.

Of course, we had the Barry Manilow disc in our luggage. The drive was a Sony 2250 equipped with an Audio Technica AT 20 SLA. The demodulator was connected to the multichannel input of a modern Yamaha amplifier. The reproduction took place over outstanding loudspeakers of the manufacturer ASW.

Meeting with Mr. Leinung As soon as the first notes of the record sounded, the surprising transparency of the sound picture fascinated us. The CD4-50 played the record extremely analytically, but also a bit overcooled. Furthermore, we occasionally noticed an unpleasant pumping, similar to that of "Tate" or "Space & Image" devices, when the channel separation in SQ mode is set too high. Our tension increased as the needle neared the first critical passages in the 4th song. Only a single spot, a loud "Shout, Shout" of the background choir, distorted. Attentive, we now watched how the device would handle the extreme levels of the 5th song "Weekend In New England". Almost effortlessly the CD4-50 mastered these tracks. Stunned, we turned the disc around and listened to the entire second side with the CD4-50. It sounded distortion-free.

This was followed by a demodulator change. The Grundig CD-4 should now be used. As before, the CD4-50, the Grundig was re-adjusted and optimally adjusted by Mr. Leinung. The cable was a bit annoying because of the required DIN adapter.

When the needle finally fell into the groove, the Grundig surprised us with a pleasant and full sound. He gave Barry Manilow's voice much more warmth and character than before the CD4-50. Although the Grundig built the IC 392, it distorted the critical songs as bad as we had previously heard on the SH-400 and UDA-100. Nevertheless, he scored overall with his much more pleasing sound. As Grundig continually improved the CD-4 during production under the same type designation and unchanged housing design, it should be noted for insiders that we used a Grundig CD-4 # 11212.

This was followed by a test with the Sansui QC-04. Although Sansui has later installed in its receivers and the IC 392, but in QC-04 he was not yet used. As expected, the Sansui then failed even at the extreme levels. Overall, he did not sound as good as the Grundig.

CD4-50
A look inside the open case of the CD4-50 revealed the effort that went into this device: two IC 392s are working hard here. A 30 KHz oscillator will vibrate as soon as the device is switched to CD-4 mode, so that a signal is already present at the ICs before the needle ever makes contact with the disc's CD-4 carrier. This effort ultimately leads to a very clean sound, but it is clearly lacking in substance and heat. CD4-50 The real freak will have to buy two devices: A good sounding demodulator for everyday use and a CD4-50 or similar built for the few CD-4 discs with really difficult levels.

Klaus Hönemann
 
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just as a personal footnote to this extensive testing that was carried out in 2008;

I have a Grundig Quadro CD-4 demodulator in my rig now and I do find it to be a more consistent performer with a lot less Quadradiscs tripping it up and distorting than I experienced with the JVC 4DD-5. The Grundig also has a more pleasing sound than the better performing of my multiple JVC 4DD-5 units, with a more rounded bass and less of the hollow ringing treble I had previously encountered on some discs.
however, imho, the greatest failing of the Grundig demodulator is its auto carrier lock for the 30khz signal. If the Grundig had a manual adjustment for the 30khz carrier like the JVC then one could attenuate it for certain discs and it would be almost "perfect" for my needs.

I guess I'm going to have to track down a JVC CD4-50..

..either that or Dutton Vocalion work their magic on the Arista Quads, including this torture Manilow disc.

could it be magic?
maybe, baby!

(by "Manilow torture", I don't mean musically, of course!)
 
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Nice work, Jon and fredblue. It's interesting to hear a review (and positive one at that) of the Grundig CD-4 demodulator. I've seen a photo of one before, but didn't think much of it.

As far as getting your hands on a JVC or Victor CD4-50, it's "good luck" to both of us. I've been looking out for one for a while, they don't pop up often.
 
Amazing find, Jon.
I'll assume you didn't have a CD4-50 to use for your conversion?
Did anyone?

Too bad these guys didn't think to make a convseriom disc of their experiment.
Or maybe they did ...
 
There is a story about this album, AQ-4090. Allegedly, or something like this, the engineers knew that this was going to be the very last quadradisc they made for Arista, so they put all of the tolerances to the max. If you look at that LP, the run out groove is massive as the audio is squished to the outer edges of the LP. Accordingly, only the very best CD-4 setups would play the thing without distortion. I have a real good rip of the title song on my PC that I did myself a few years ago. I think I actually recorded in the entire LP but I am not sure where I stored it, but I do remember that it came out fairly well as my copy was bought new in 1976 (or whatever) and it was only played by me a few times with a Shure M-24, so no damage from the needle.

There are quite a few hits on it, and it was a very big album of that day. If it's something people want I could see if I can dig out my original rip. As I recall it came out fairly well.

I have this "Manilow, Barry - 1974 - II (CD-4)" which made me think that maybe you filed your This One's For You under Manilow, Barry. Just a thought.
 
Always wanted to experiment with this record. Every time a copy pops up on ebay I find myself thinking, I'll hate the music, it won't play right, and will frustrate the hell out of me for hours upon hours.....I must own one!

But it always slips away for more than I'm willing to pay for the hours of frustration.

If someone has a really good hi-res stereo needledrop of the album, that could be useful. For science!
 
Out of curiosity, I gave my copy a spin the other night. A few years ago I invested in a NOS SE-405 Demod and a NOS replacement stylus for my 4MD-20x cartridge. There hasn't yet been a CD-4 disc this setup can't conquer. Cat Stevens' Greatest Hits, a notorious problem disc, plays without issue.

So I put on "Looks Like We Made It", and it almost played that track perfectly...I started getting distortion in the rear channels toward the very end of the song, but for all the times the loud backing vocals come in during the chorus it managed to hang on to the carrier.

CD-4 is such a fascinating system...
 
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