Surround Project Procedures

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CarcPazu

Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
24
Location
Montreal
Hi to everyone!

I've been working on a project with my drummer for a year now and in a month or two, I'll start mixing it in surround in Cakewalk Sonar 4.

I would like to ask a couple of questions to people here who are doing music in surround.

I would like to know if you start the project right away in surround or you track everything in stereo (with surround in mind) and when it's time to mix, your switch the project to surround?

If you start in stereo do you record everything, I mean everything, even the stuff that will eventually end up in the rear speakers and then when you switch to surround mode, then you start to spread the stuff around, or you just record the basic of the song and then in surround you record the extra stuff to complete the project?

Wich DAW do you mainly use for this?

Any advice on this would be appreciated since I'm a newbie to this and I don't know anyone who know anything about surround prods. Everyone I know who are recording engineers shit on me when I say I want to do my project in surround, they either laugh at me or say surround is a gimmick and that I should give it up. (NO WAY!)

I don't know if I explain all this clearly, I speak french, so sorry for typos or misunderstanding, I could rephrase if it's unclear.

I will surely need a bunch of advice for this, I hope some people over here could help me. I kinda feel alone in this surround world. :(

Thanks in advance! :)

:D CarcPazu :D
 
CarcPazu.

We meet again! Seems I am seeing you all over the place these days. Firstly, don't listen to those who sneer at Surround. It's not their fault they have not yet "heard the light" as it were.

When I do a surround mix, I am thinking in surround right from the start. This is very much a personal way of working, as there are those who will do the stereo first, then unwrap it into 5.1 or whatever format they are using. I just find it easier to work the other way around. Main reason is that Surround is actually a lot easier than stereo. You use a lot less EQ correctively - you don't have to "force" things into 2 speakers, so an EQ shoehorn is not really needed. I find I use EQ to enhance or for effect as long as the tracks have been well recorded.
Same thing applies with reverbs - a lot less is used. In stereo mixing, reverb is used more to make things sit in the mix - bringing a sound up or setting it further back in the field, and not nearly so much is needed in 5.1 as you don't need to artificially create the sense of space.
I tend to start off by bringing up all the faders in the front pair, nothing to centre channel, and try to get the positioning set basically where I want it to be with panners. After this has been done, the rest is all ear candy - fine detail, effects, dynamics, all that - to my way of working - comes after I get the basic channels all mapped out.

Software?
DAW = Nuendo 3.2 for me, but the trick is to use the package you are familiar with. We all go on about how our chosen package is better than all the others, but as long as you can route what you want where you want, and the workflow matches your way of working, and the beast doesn't crash on you, then it really doesn't matter too much what you use. I use Nuendo as it was designed for multichannel right from version 1.0 - it's not something that got added in later on to an existing platform.
Plus it works well for me.
Plugin wise, not too much:
Steinberg Surround Edition
Waves 360 Bundle
Starplugs Surround tools
Tony B's excellent shareware package - this man codes some of the best panners there are & some great little tools.
Wizoo W5 reverb
Voxengo
URS EQ
Nomad Factory
UAD-1
Okay, the last 4 are not multichannel, but careful planning will get you where you need to be.

Surround is not a gimmick, not by a long way. And to be honest, those who say it is are either speaking out of ignorance and should be ignored or out of spite/Jealousy because they are not doing it, and in that case should be pitied IMHO. Forgive them for they know not what they are saying (to paraphrase).
Listening to a well-crafted Surround mix is a never ending source of pleasure for me. There is nothing to beat being placed in the middle of the band - things sit up & stand out in ways that stereo can never even come close to achieving.

Anyway - before I dribble on for pages & pages, wasting all the valuavble space here, I would like to finish by saying you are in the right place for certain.
 
I definitely agree that surround should be thought of from the beginning. If you do "translate" or "transform" stereo to surround, it will sound like an expansion of stereo rather than a true surround mix.

In terms of DAW -- I'm a victim of funds, so I make do with what I got, which is an ADAT and a bunch of stereo reverbs. I target 4.0 basically, as that is sufficient for my musical needs -- my ideas will convey just fine in quad.
 
neil wilkes said:
We meet again! Seems I am seeing you all over the place these days. Firstly, don't listen to those who sneer at Surround. It's not their fault they have not yet "heard the light" as it were.

ehehe, yes, I'm glad I found this spot. at last a place where people are opened to surround. Since I discovered surround in 1998, I swear only by this, I wish every band would release their album in surround. I still enjoy stereo, but it's like mono to me, pretty much outdated.


neil wilkes said:
You use a lot less EQ correctively - you don't have to "force" things into 2 speakers, so an EQ shoehorn is not really needed. I find I use EQ to enhance or for effect as long as the tracks have been well recorded.

That confirm what I thought. I've been tracking in stereo, but I always had surround in mind from the start.


neil wilkes said:
Same thing applies with reverbs - a lot less is used. In stereo mixing, reverb is used more to make things sit in the mix - bringing a sound up or setting it further back in the field, and not nearly so much is needed in 5.1 as you don't need to artificially create the sense of space. I tend to start off by bringing up all the faders in the front pair, nothing to centre channel, and try to get the positioning set basically where I want it to be with panners. After this has been done, the rest is all ear candy - fine detail, effects, dynamics, all that - to my way of working - comes after I get the basic channels all mapped out.

Very interesting. So far that's basicaly the way i've been doing it instinctively.


neil wilkes said:
DAW = Nuendo 3.2 for me, but the trick is to use the package you are familiar with. We all go on about how our chosen package is better than all the others, but as long as you can route what you want where you want, and the workflow matches your way of working, and the beast doesn't crash on you, then it really doesn't matter too much what you use. I use Nuendo as it was designed for multichannel right from version 1.0 - it's not something that got added in later on to an existing platform.

When I started to shop for a DAW, I considered Nuendo for a split second for the reasons you mentionned, but the price was way to high for me. I couldn't afford it. So I bought Cakewalk Sonar 4. Now the 5ft is out but I don't plan on upgrading unless I really need the new features. It's true that people tend to push for what they use. I considered many ones, but I finally ended up with Sonar, wich seems to fit me well. I like the workflow so far, concerning the surround features, I'm not there yet. From what I red, surround features are well integrated in it. I guess I'll figure it out. So far it doesn't crash on me (yet).

Here is a list of what I use, my gear setup is kinda modest, since I'm not a professionnal, I bought what I could, so far it fits my need.

P4 3.2ghz, 2g ram, 80g, 200g hard-disk, Matrox Parhelia 650 with 2 19" LCD in dual-head
Sound Card : M-Audio Firewire 410 4in 8out
Monitors : M-Audio LX4 2.1 System with LX4 5.1 Expander System.
Cakewalk Sonar 4.0
Lexicon Pantheon 5.1 Reverbs plug-in (inc in Sonar)
Native Instruements Guitar Rig
Izotope Trash
Drum: Roland V-Drum TD-3 hooked in MIDI with FXpansion BFD Drum Module.
Guitars: Ibanez AX120, Ibanez RG570
Bass: Ibanez Ergodyne 5 strings
Mics : Audio Technica AT2020 Cardioid Condenser Mic, Sure SM58.
Evolution MK-425C keyboard controler
VST: AAS String Studio VS-1
VST: AAS Ultra Analog VA-1
VST: AAS Tassman 4
AKG K240 Studio Headphones




neil wilkes said:
Surround is not a gimmick, not by a long way. And to be honest, those who say it is are either speaking out of ignorance and should be ignored or out of spite/Jealousy because they are not doing it, and in that case should be pitied IMHO. Forgive them for they know not what they are saying (to paraphrase).

AMEN :D


neil wilkes said:
Listening to a well-crafted Surround mix is a never ending source of pleasure for me. There is nothing to beat being placed in the middle of the band - things sit up & stand out in ways that stereo can never even come close to achieving.

(y) I totally agree with you. (y)


neil wilkes said:
Anyway - before I dribble on for pages & pages, wasting all the valuavble space here, I would like to finish by saying you are in the right place for certain.

no no, go on, the waste would be not to use this valuable space to dribble on for pages & pages.

I'm glad to be at the right place!

I could explain a bit what is my project.
I'm working on a Experimental Extreme Metal song wich is 50 minutes long on wich I play the guitars, the bass, keyboard's ambiances, and singing (growling mostly), Mathz, my drummer, is doing all the percussions. Our goal is to do it in surround exclusively. I was tired to wait for extreme metal bands to do it in surround, so I decided to do it myself, maybe to kick some people in the butt (myself included) and also for the sake of self achievement. The song is basicaly all recorded now with many many guitars tracks. I started the vox recently, but I still need a month or two of practicing and mic placement testing before I record something final.


For now it's in stereo but it sound kinda awfull all crammed and unstable because everything is crammed in stereo, wich sucks. I cannot wait to spread this in surround to open things up. The reason why you seem me all over the place now, is because I started to listen to some 5.1 albums and made me realize that I will surely need somekind of help if I want to acheive something up to what I wish I could do. I don't think I will do a stereo version. Maybe a quick rough down-mix to spread some mp3 around. But nothing official. The goal is to do this in surround. Period. If you want to hear a rough-mix segment, pm me and I'll send you a link.

In the end my goal is to press maybe a 100dvd of it, send it here and there, maybe put some in local metal stores around, but nothing big, no gig, I do this for fun as a hobby. I'm also studying the possibility to put it online in somekind of format (aacPlus, wma..) or maybe just a straight .iso dvd ready to burn. I believe in free music at some extend.

Anyway that's about it for now.

:D CarcPazu :D
 
I almost always arrange a song in stereo..while thinking about how I will mix it in surround. Since I rely heavily on samples for my music, it is just easier to work with stereo tracks to chop up, add effects, and get fades set up properly for the individual "instruments".

Once the arrangement is complete, I usually create the stereo mix and listen to it many, many times to see what things pop out at me, or things I think should be more "background" noise. Listening to the stereo mix repeatedly helps me tremendously in preparing for the surround mixing stage.....I hear things in the mix that I would not have noticed during arrangement even if I started in surround.

....but

I've started doing some real-time "playing" (which is a challenge all by itself for people like me who cannot play an instrument) in surround using Reason. The sounds that I can make in surround using that program are way too cool, and it is a nice change of pace from the tedious "drawing" of samples and loops in ACID, my primary arrangement tool. My latest song has some real-time playing in it, but those parts (the bass line and a synth melody) were in stereo. I think my future songs will have real-time drum parts in surround mixed with the usual cut, paste, loop, chop, modify and other stuff I do in ACID.

I really don't think there is a wrong way to work in surround.....I guess it really depends on the material and/or personal preference.

Here are the tools I use:

Sony ACID 6(y)
Sony Vegas 6
Cubase SX3
Reason 2.5(y)
Wavelab 5
Soundforge 8(y)
...and a ton of stereo plugins (I don't own any surround plugins)
....and a ton of samples and loops.....I think my library is up to 34 gig.
 
In brief, I've been building song projects in ACID since 2.0. When I got to ACID 4.0 and could start doing the things I imagined in surround, what fun! These days I may or may not have a surround mix in mind when I start, depends of what I'm doing. BBE Sonic Maximizer was added recently and I treat tracks at times with Sound Forge with plug-ins.

What a joy not to shoehorn (thanks Neil that's exactly the way I look at it) into a mere 2.0 setup. It's like people complaining about the black bars above and below the movie on video...

"also available in pan & scan for people who don't get it..."
 
It's very interesting to read about how you guys proceeds.

I know there's no rule on what should be done in the way of mixing, but I'd like to know if you could share some tips & tricks, on what works and what doesn't, from your experience and to your personnal taste in a surround mix. On the NiN "Downward Spiral" DVV-A, Trent like to start the song in front and then bring some surprises in the back as the song goes. I think this kind of mix works well. He rarely bring the drums (or percussions) in the back. He also barely used the center speaker, claiming the most people didn't set their center speaker correctly and he prefer to have a phantom center instead. Also I'm concerned about the subwoofer, do you guys prefer to send only the bass and kick's low frequencies in it, or the whole low frequencies of the mix?
What's your approach on all this?

CarcPazu
 
I am of the same mind about the subwoofer that Trent is about the center -- no-one has it set up right, so just go ahead and use the whole frequency range in the speakers. If you try to set it up for those who aren't using bass management, but don't have full range speakers either, you end up shooting yourself in the foot by compromising the mix for those who do have it set up right, yet may have different crossover settings for whatever reason.
 
Great comments here. The only non-technical thing I would add is: stay true to the music as a standalone idea while you're tracking and then later "stage" it in surround. At the heart of it all, you should have a compelling piece of music that should still communicate in mono thru an AM radio.

The only technical thing I would say is: for pity's sake, retain dynamic range - even if it is "heavy" music!

I'm currently mixing in 5.1 using Digital Performer 4.something-or-other, a Quicksilver 1ghz DP Mac G4, Mackie Control Universal, Altiverb, Waves Plugs - used delicately ;), a venerable MOTU 2408, Reason, and other various widgets of hardware and software origin.
 
Dusty Chalk said:
I am of the same mind about the subwoofer that Trent is about the center -- no-one has it set up right, so just go ahead and use the whole frequency range in the speakers. If you try to set it up for those who aren't using bass management, but don't have full range speakers either, you end up shooting yourself in the foot by compromising the mix for those who do have it set up right, yet may have different crossover settings for whatever reason.

I tend to agree with you on this, but doing so compromise the artistic value for those who are too dumb to calibrate their surround system correctly. And then render almost irrelevent true essence of the words 5.1 Surround Sound and it becomes Quad.

In the end I don't think the solution is to render useless the center and subwoofer, but it's to be very carefull the way you use them.
 
CarcPazu said:
If you want to hear a rough-mix segment, pm me and I'll send you a link.




Hi everyone,
I got some message asking to hear, so I'll post a segment here.

It's a segment from a 50 minutes song, it's located at around 20 minutes in the song. There's no vocals on this for now. It's still a rough stereo mix.

http://www.sla-m.com/krokmiten/krokmiten_redroom_cocktail_2.mp3

Let me know what you think about it (songwise and mixwise)
smile.gif
.



:D CarcPazu :D
 
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