I won't pay any money to sponsor an SACD. I want to see that format dead. I think it's a sham. (Dons Nomex suit.)
We need a Quad First/Surround First reissue label
- Thread starter fredblue
- Start date
Help Support QuadraphonicQuad:
I won't pay any money to sponsor an SACD. I want to see that format dead. I think it's a sham. (Dons Nomex suit.)
I can't answer for anyone else but I would have pledged something extra for Musicmagic and Tale Spinnin' to have happened in Quad.. nobody else will ever do them in Surround now
The RTF-MUSICMAGIC disc quite likely does not have a Discrete Q4 tape in the vaults to be accessed.This was one of the final discs to be encoded by CBS.....77 I believe.
Some of the final discs encoded by CBS at this time were encoded via their "Position Encoder"CBS LABS NEW TOY, which could be fed by 8 or more multi-tracks.This meant you could encode direct from a concert or mixing board, eliminating the need to make a Q4 master.
(btw; still waiting to hear if AF was supplied any encoded reels-by accident, re:Joe Walsh, BS&T, etc. The "stereo" SACDS )
Hmm.. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the likes of the Quads of Santana's Amigos & Festival & Herbie Hancock's Secrets for that matter were created with that Position Encoder.. all from 1976-1977..
but I have a tough time accepting Musicmagic Quad was created that way, sorry Fizzy, those other 3 in SQ LP form I just mentioned are shit Quad, I mean really piss poor with a capital SHIT.. Musicmagic on the other hand is superb Quad (imho
)Even so, no excuse for Tale Spinnin' not to be done on Surround SACD, I'd lay Kickstarter money on that one having a 4-channel discrete master in the vaults.
Hmm.. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the likes of the Quads of Santana's Amigos & Festival & Herbie Hancock's Secrets for that matter were created with that Position Encoder.. all from 1976-1977..
but I have a tough time accepting Musicmagic Quad was created that way, sorry Fizzy, those other 3 in SQ LP form I just mentioned are shit Quad, I mean really piss poor with a capital SHIT.. Musicmagic on the other hand is superb Quad (imho
Even so, no excuse for Tale Spinnin' not to be done on Surround SACD, I'd lay Kickstarter money on that one having a 4-channel discrete master in the vaults.
I'd be inclined to believe fizzywiggs41 except in this case, MusicMagic had a Q8 counterpart, so it would've necessitated a Q4 master for duplication. If this were an SQ-only release, I'd believe him to be correct. Santana's Festival also has a Q8 version however it's definitely not discrete. Somebody phoned that one in for sure and similar to the Isley's "Live it Up" sounds like it's been processed by some passive decoder. I don't believe Amigos has a Q8, so that one too may have been a direct to SQ release. Shame as I had my hopes up for albums like Johnny Taylor's Eargasm.... which should have had a Q8 but sadly, was SQ-only. Chances are there's no 4-track master for that one then either.
We're now veering way off piste but this is something I've looked at closely for several reasons since going on my SQ trip.. Carefully listening to and closely looking at the 4 decoded channels of these things on the computer helps enormously when playing Sherlock, imho.
I do not believe Eargasm and Live It Up are the Stereo passed thru a decoder, to me they're remixes and the real thing.
steelydave put forward a theory about Live It Up, which to me explained the situation very well (can't remember it now off the top of my head but if it comes to me I will edit/post back).
Amigos, Festival & Secrets are, I believe, faked, with no 4-channel master, possibly created using the Position Encoder (all the same remix engineer, Fred Catero.. can it be any coincidence the same fella Fred fudged all 3 in 76-77?)
Ps. Did you try my latest Eargasm conversion? Not the one from last year, the new one since getting new turntable etc.? I'm not bigging myself up (at all) I just think using the AT cart (with greater stereo separation specs than my old Ortofon cart) has enhanced the separation effect when decoded by the SQ Vinyl Surround Master.. also, Eargasm was a Larry Keyes Quad, I have a hard time believing he would fudge it.. but anything is possible, I guess.. though all that said, if Musicmagic is not the real deal I'll eat my hat!!
also, with regard to the question mark over mixes that were only ever in SQ matrix form with no Q8...
I don't feel that is indicative of the lack of a 4-channel master, since the Harold Melvin Wake Up Everybody Quad was SQ LP only with no Q8 release.. and AF excerpted the title track for their Collection compilation.. existence of 4-channel master = proven! (imho)
..oh and Philadelphia International did several other Quads in SQ only form, with no Q8 release, that decode brilliantly (O'Jays Family Reunion & Survival, MFSB Philadelphia Freedom)
..also the Don Ellis Quad (only ever on SQ LPs) has a Robin Reel (akin to a 4-CH master?) and AF must have had a 4-CH master for the Miles Davis Quad (Also only available in SQ LPs, no Q8 option) they included in their Collection SACD too.
so yeah, there you go.. blah!
I don't feel that is indicative of the lack of a 4-channel master, since the Harold Melvin Wake Up Everybody Quad was SQ LP only with no Q8 release.. and AF excerpted the title track for their Collection compilation.. existence of 4-channel master = proven! (imho)
..oh and Philadelphia International did several other Quads in SQ only form, with no Q8 release, that decode brilliantly (O'Jays Family Reunion & Survival, MFSB Philadelphia Freedom)
..also the Don Ellis Quad (only ever on SQ LPs) has a Robin Reel (akin to a 4-CH master?) and AF must have had a 4-CH master for the Miles Davis Quad (Also only available in SQ LPs, no Q8 option) they included in their Collection SACD too.
so yeah, there you go.. blah!
also, with regard to the questiotn mark over mixes that were only ever in SQ matrix form with no Q8...
I don't feel that is indicative of the lack of a 4-channel master, since the Harold Melvin Wake Up Everybody Quad was SQ LP only with no Q8 release.. and AF excerpted the title track for their Collection compilation.. existence of 4-channel master = proven! (imho)
so yeah, there you go.. blah!
Oh I agree, I'm just saying that they (CBS) had this new toy which could be utilized via multi-track (more than 4) at this time (77).
As to Q-Eight's info that MUSICMAGIC has a Q8, well ok.I did not know that.I did check with Mark's
discography first, so I guess it needs an update.
And CBS also had encoders via the Ghent microphone,& London Box (76 ) which could do SQ ENCODE
without a Q4 Master.They were used for classical performances for the most part, I do believe
Just thought I'd add that.....to further muddy the waters.
They had the toy.. I'm sure it was their pride and joy.. but boy oh boy.. it would be nice to know what they used it on..!
My best guess at this point is it could be one of the surprisingly few really shitty late era Quads from Columbia.. I don't mean subjectively "worse" later ones that went back to a slightly cruder 4-corner mixing approach (which I happen to like btw but I know the Tower Of Power for example with its drums hard in the rear right and bass hard rear left aren't every Quaddies' cup of tea!) not late 4-corner jobs like Energy To Burn, Thunder In The Afternoon, Ain't Nothin' Stoppin' Us Now.. but those three other late Columbia Quads I referred to on here the other day which are all truly terrible imho., with a kind of hollow sound, no real surround soundfield to speak of and on the SQ LPs when decoded the rears do not cancel out lead vocals in the centre back position when summed to mono, which are; Santana's Amigos & Festival Quads and Herbie Hancock's Secrets.. they have to have been done with some fudge it device or something went disastrously wrong in Fred Catero's Quad mixing facility in San Francisco.. hmm.,
anyway, this is all lovely and very much my kind of geeky Sherlock chat.. but maybe if we could get back on track to see if we can work out how to get all these Quads reissued..?? that would be lovely..
What they used it on.......
Maybe few if any discs, but Ken Rasek used one on the live Buddy Rich (84), so maybe mostly later live stuff.
And back to the thread ;
Well "Deitrich Rasche" of QUADRO-SURROUND , GERMANY does alot of Quad on DVD-A , and that's an exclusive quad label not to be missed.
Yea, I know freddie; It's not 70's albums.But it is something.
All these old rumours about your insurmountable wealth (the only one on QQ , perhaps with so much purchase power), I guess buying up a large amount of voting shares on a label is out of the question ? That would do it though.
Maybe few if any discs, but Ken Rasek used one on the live Buddy Rich (84), so maybe mostly later live stuff.
And back to the thread ;
Well "Deitrich Rasche" of QUADRO-SURROUND , GERMANY does alot of Quad on DVD-A , and that's an exclusive quad label not to be missed.
Yea, I know freddie; It's not 70's albums.But it is something.
All these old rumours about your insurmountable wealth (the only one on QQ , perhaps with so much purchase power
), I guess buying up a large amount of voting shares on a label is out of the question ? That would do it though.Last night at home I checked the listings for Musicmagic, in Larry's Quad listing s bible.
Sure enough, the Q8 is listed.
One that Mark omitted in error most likely.:xp:
These things happen.
What they used it on.......
Maybe few if any discs, but Ken Rasek used one on the live Buddy Rich (84), so maybe mostly later live stuff.
And back to the thread ;
Well "Deitrich Rasche" of QUADRO-SURROUND , GERMANY does alot of Quad on DVD-A , and that's an exclusive quad label not to be missed.
Yea, I know freddie; It's not 70's albums.But it is something.
All these old rumours about your insurmountable wealth (the only one on QQ , perhaps with so much purchase power
Yes I have a few Quadro Surround discs already, all excellent..!
Once I'm done with the ludicrous Quad vinyl obsession folly pet project, I'll start hoovering up more of those kinds of DVD-A's and SACDs etc again, just like old times
Insurmountable wealth..?? Haha..!! Now that is funny! :brew
seriously, I'm probably one of the poorest on here.. I just spend almost all my "pocket money" on this crazy hobby! Literally everything else (movies, games, hookers, hagen dazs) has taken a major backseat the last few years in order to fund this Quad & 5.1 addiction...
..I'll happily crowdsurf (or whatever its called) in order to get these old Quad things out in the best quality possible.. and I'm open to all suggestions.. but subsidising a record label who can't run their business efficiently (generalisation of the industry, I am not having a dig at anyone or any label..!! Phew!
) is not an option to me I'm afraid, everyone has their limits, even SACD OCD loonies
Last night at home I checked the listings for Musicmagic, in Larry's Quad listing s bible.
Sure enough, the Q8 is listed.
One that Mark omitted in error most likely.:xp:
These things happen.
ah.. but has anybody seen Musicmagic on Q8, let alone heard it..??
there is only one tiny question mark hovering over Musicmagic for me.. and that is that there is no Quad remixing credit to be found anywhere on the sleeve of the SQ LP (that I can find at any rate)..
..but that is potentially indicative of not much other than they didn't credit whoever did it, since there are several late Quads from Columbia & assoc labels that similarly make no specific mention of the Quad remix engineer (Turnstiles, Live It Up, Harvest For The World, Love Crazy, Family Reunion, Second Childhood, Andy, Tower Of Power, Wired, Rated Extraordinaire, EWG w/Rick Derringer.. and they are all good Quads.. imho..)
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2013
- Messages
- 24,416
ah.. but has anybody seen Musicmagic on Q8, let alone heard it..??
there is only one tiny question mark hovering over Musicmagic for me.. and that is that there is no Quad remixing credit to be found anywhere on the sleeve of the SQ LP (that I can find at any rate)..
..but that is potentially indicative of not much other than they didn't credit whoever did it, since there are several late Quads from Columbia & assoc labels that similarly make no specific mention of the Quad remix engineer (Turnstiles, Live It Up, Harvest For The World, Love Crazy, Family Reunion, Second Childhood, Andy, Tower Of Power, Wired, Rated Extraordinaire, EWG w/Rick Derringer.. and they are all good Quads.. imho..)
QUAD remixers were probably NOT listed, as late into the QUAD era, the impending demise of the surround format
QUAD became a dirty word as everyone was somehow burnt [including yours, truly] by its promise and then failure and as I've always maintained it was the NOT READY FOR PRIMETIME launch into the NEW format that carries a stigma to this VERY day.
If it HAD initially worked, as INTENDED, I really do believe we'd have seen more and more artists and labels embracing the format into the 21st century.
Adam, where was the SURROUND MASTER when we needed it? 55 years too late.....but as the ole saying goes....better late than NEVER!
well I've now since got to hear the Q8 of Musicmagic (and it rocks.. many thanks!!) so there you go it definitely did/does exist in discrete Quad form.. still none the wiser on the fine fellow(s) who remixed it into Quad back in 77 but.. anyway.. there you go.. its for real
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2013
- Messages
- 24,416
well I've now since got to hear the Q8 of Musicmagic (and it rocks.. many thanks!!) so there you go it definitely did/does exist in discrete Quad form.. still none the wiser on the fine fellow(s) who remixed it into Quad back in 77 but.. anyway.. there you go.. its for real
Did you finally get a Q8 player, Adam?
This is just the personal opinion of someone who's looked at the back cover of pretty much every CBS label group quad over the last year or so, but my theory is that the quad remix credits on the Columbia/Epic/etc. quad releases were either contractually obligated for their salaried employees, or when they were done by outside people at outside studios they never provided seperate quad remix credits because the same people did both stereo and quad mixes.
This is by no means an exhaustive list, but if you look at the majority of CBS releases that don't have a quad remix credit, the common thread is that they were done at a non-CBS studio by outside engineers/producers. Here are some off the top of my head:
Argent 'In Deep' (1973) (AIR Studios, London)
Herbie Hancock 'Thrust' (1974) (Wally Heider, SF)
Weather Report 'Tale Spinnin' (1975) (Wally Heider, SF w/Bruce Botnick)
Earth Wind & Fire 'Thats The Way Of The World' (1975) (Caribou Ranch & various LA studios w/George Massenburg)
Rick Derringer 'Spring Fever' (1975) (Record Plant East w/Shelly Yakus)
Aerosmith 'Rocks' (1976) (Record Plant East w/Jay Messina)
Jeff Beck 'Wired' (1976) (AIR, Caribou Ranch, Record Plant w/George Martin & Geoff Emerick)
Isley Brothers 'Live It Up' (1974) 'Harvest For The World' (1976) (Record Plant w/Margouleff and/or Cecil)
Tower Of Power 'Aint Nothin Stoppin Us Now (1976) (Record Plant w/the bands engineers)
Columbia and Epic seemed were pretty meticulous about putting credits for quad remixes on their product from the very first quad releases they did in January 1972, way more so than any other labels. I'd guess that near enough to 90% of their quad releases have a quad remix credit, and if there seems to be less quad credits on some of the '75-'77 releases I think it's because more outside studios were becoming quad equipped whereas Columbia had some kind of quad facilities dating back to the late 60s. I don't have any specific examples but Columbia Masterworks classical releases were the same, the overwhelming majority had a quad remix credit but the few that didn't were often done by non-staff producers/engineers or in countries outside the US such as the UK or Japan.
I spoke via email a bit to Darrell Johnson (who is a member here, but doesn't post much) who was a CD-4 mastering engineer at JVC's cutting center in the 70s and he told me that engineers had to fight tooth and nail to get their names on quad albums. He said that Tom Dowd and himself had to work hard to convince Atlantic to put that coloured band around their CD-4 releases with 'Remixed for QuadraDisc by' credit on the back. Even though quad was in decline after '75, it hadn't yet acquired that sort of (in my opinion undeserved, obviously) reputation as one of the great technical follies of the modern era that it would in subsequent years (and decades) - I think any engineer who did a quad mix would be more than happy to receive a credit on the finished product.
This is by no means an exhaustive list, but if you look at the majority of CBS releases that don't have a quad remix credit, the common thread is that they were done at a non-CBS studio by outside engineers/producers. Here are some off the top of my head:
Argent 'In Deep' (1973) (AIR Studios, London)
Herbie Hancock 'Thrust' (1974) (Wally Heider, SF)
Weather Report 'Tale Spinnin' (1975) (Wally Heider, SF w/Bruce Botnick)
Earth Wind & Fire 'Thats The Way Of The World' (1975) (Caribou Ranch & various LA studios w/George Massenburg)
Rick Derringer 'Spring Fever' (1975) (Record Plant East w/Shelly Yakus)
Aerosmith 'Rocks' (1976) (Record Plant East w/Jay Messina)
Jeff Beck 'Wired' (1976) (AIR, Caribou Ranch, Record Plant w/George Martin & Geoff Emerick)
Isley Brothers 'Live It Up' (1974) 'Harvest For The World' (1976) (Record Plant w/Margouleff and/or Cecil)
Tower Of Power 'Aint Nothin Stoppin Us Now (1976) (Record Plant w/the bands engineers)
Columbia and Epic seemed were pretty meticulous about putting credits for quad remixes on their product from the very first quad releases they did in January 1972, way more so than any other labels. I'd guess that near enough to 90% of their quad releases have a quad remix credit, and if there seems to be less quad credits on some of the '75-'77 releases I think it's because more outside studios were becoming quad equipped whereas Columbia had some kind of quad facilities dating back to the late 60s. I don't have any specific examples but Columbia Masterworks classical releases were the same, the overwhelming majority had a quad remix credit but the few that didn't were often done by non-staff producers/engineers or in countries outside the US such as the UK or Japan.
I spoke via email a bit to Darrell Johnson (who is a member here, but doesn't post much) who was a CD-4 mastering engineer at JVC's cutting center in the 70s and he told me that engineers had to fight tooth and nail to get their names on quad albums. He said that Tom Dowd and himself had to work hard to convince Atlantic to put that coloured band around their CD-4 releases with 'Remixed for QuadraDisc by' credit on the back. Even though quad was in decline after '75, it hadn't yet acquired that sort of (in my opinion undeserved, obviously) reputation as one of the great technical follies of the modern era that it would in subsequent years (and decades) - I think any engineer who did a quad mix would be more than happy to receive a credit on the finished product.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2013
- Messages
- 24,416
Thanks for the 'probable' explanation of the missing credits on the QUAD discs.
Regarding your last paragraph........I hope you don't think I was denigrating the QUAD era as a complete failure. I absolutely applaud all those extraordinary QUAD mixers/mixes from that era. It was the vinyl delivery systems which failed. I'm sure the pro SQ/QS/CD~4 decoders utilized by the record companies were superior to the consumer versions. ONLY when I went QUAD Open Reel was I, personally, able to hear these extraordinary remixes for the first time.
As I mentioned to Adam, had a decoder on par with the Surround Master been available at the time, it would've certainly made a splash but then to this day, those JVC [or equivalent] CD~4 decoders which were problematic at the time are still problematic with a hefty failure rate and erratic tracking problems and even more so the crappy vinyl they were pressing these discs on.
And like Adam, I would LOVE for ALL those old quad masters to be revitalized on modern SACD/DVD~A/BD~A discs so that we can hear them for the first time in all their glory.
But my stance stands on why QUAD failed during those early 'experimental' days and the reason classical labels like DGG and Philips failed to release in those disc formats even though they indeed had a stockpike of QUAD masters sequestered in their vaults.
I also wish all those hundreds of EMI Angel QUAD masters will one day be released by Pentatone as QUAD SACDs after they finish their Philips/DGG release schedules.
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2013
- Messages
- 24,416
I love PMs!
Especially when they're lightly scented with lavender :ugham:
Interesting stuff..!
Thanks for all that cool info Dave.
fwiw, I think we may be able to put two and two together and make Quad and presume the following were remixed into Quad by..
Wired : Geoff Emerick,
Thrust : Fred Catero,
Tale Spinnin' : Bruce Botnick,
Spring Fever : Larry Keyes
Live It Up : Robert Margouleff & Malcolm Cecil
Harvest For The World : Malcolm Cecil (*)
(* Margouleff was no longer working with the Isleys by that point.. and Cecil was gone by the time of 77's Go For Your Guns with the Quad mixed by Larry Keyes)
oh and the other 2 Aerosmith SQ LPs (as I'm sure you already know Dave
) gave a Quad Remix Engineering credit to Jay Messina, so its probably safe to assume that since Messina was credited as Engineer of Rocks he did the Quad mixing of that album too.. ..however (imho) I think we should maybe draw a line somewhere with all this and I would say to keep it as we've done it and only list where it specifically credits them on the LPs rather than start speculating, even if the guesses are more "educated"!
..meantime, I think I've exhausted all avenues I can think of but if I come across any LPs with credits on or info from other sources will update the Unsung Heroes QQ thread accordingly.. it was a lot of fun doing the sleuthing with you guys, thank you for all your wonderful info and input! Similar threads
