How Do I make a DVD-A?

[georgeshannon]

Boy, that HD Audio Solo Ultra sure has some unnecessarily retricted limitations. Hope they don't charge too much for their software. I sure wouldn't buy it.

You know, when folks talk about a mandatory limit before using compression, they are talking specifications; not reality. The DVDA spec may very well require MLP for 96/24 5.1 DVDA. (I'll bet you all a cookie and a soda that Meridian had a big hand in the writing of that particular specification. ) What is "proper etiquette" for a DVDA does not necessarily describe the physical limitations of the medium.

The group who wrote the DVDA specification required MLP for that data rate in part for political purposes and in part for the physical size limitations of the DVD. Most modern albums would not fit on a DVD when recorded at 5.1 96/24 without the use of a compression algorithm; especially when one includes a DTS/DD version and a stereo version.

But there is sure no reason to not record 5.1 96/24 onto DVDA when an album does fit. Can anyone think of a case where a product exceeds its specification at no additional cost to the customer?

[Ge Someone]

What is "proper etiquette" for a DVDA does not necessarily describe the physical limitations of the medium.

The limit we speak of here is a "data rate" limit not a "size limit". Those specs are to make sure every (DVD-A) player can read and process such disc.

[georgeshannon]

I didn't think you could burn 96/24 5.1 wav files in Chrome. Don't you get an error message when you load the 6 mono waves?

Do you get an error message when loading the 6 mono waves?

[neil wilkes]

I know, but why can DVD-Audio solo burn 5.1 24/96 without compression. What is going on? Is it reducing the bit or sample rate automatically without telling us? that would be a bummer.

Because Cirlinca allowed disc creation to continue even though it is out of spec as some players will be able to stream the audio, but it is not guaranteed to work. Rather like the inclusion of a Dolby Digital 640 stream on Floyd's "Pulse" album. It's out of spec, but some players will play it.
The DVD-A specifications give a maximum bitrate of 9.6Mb/sec for Audio, and uncompressed 24/96 5.1 is around 13.8Mb/sec.
What this means is that if it works for you, great. However, commercially it cannot be done as the specifications state 9.6

[ndiamone]

The 4GB limit of files on a hard drive, the 27 different kinds of things you have to do to a piece to get it to play on everything, and the twiddly nature of digital itself is just three reasons why I keep everything on 4 track half inch or 4 track 35-MM full coat mag.
Or sometimes I'll cut straight multiple PCM into Broadcast Wav (.bwav) format.

When they can come up with something that has 2 buttons on it Play and Record, works like an 8-track deck (push it in-it goes-take it out-it stops) and will read off and write to whatever optical disc format you drop into it, decode it all into the same format all by itself on the fly, and burn to a disc that everybody can play, then I'll go digital.

Til then I play my 35-MM full coat on a Westrex and my 4-track half inch on an Ampex 440-AG.

[wanners]

Do you get an error message when loading the 6 mono waves?

As I recall, I did get that message in Chrome that tells you to lower the sample rate. That's why the 6 files would have had to be put through surcode mlp.

To avoid this, I started using cirlinca to burn files at 96/24.

[georgeshannon]

That's strange. My version of Chrome does not give the error message, nor does it balk at 24/96 files.

[Bob Romano]

Having a little problem here...

I have an AUDIO_TS, a VIDEO_TS and a BONUS (an Audiospectrum release) folder that are in another main folder. I have tried using ImgBurn to burn these several different ways. I tried just choosing the 3 folders using the "Write Folders To Disc". Then I tried just the VTS and ATS folders. Then I tried all three folders in another main folder. Each time I get errors when playing the disc. What format should I be using? ISO9660, ISO9660+UDF etc??? I know I have used this to burn discs using folders but nothing on this one seems to work properly.

Thanks y'all.

[georgeshannon]

Bob, I just put the Audio_ts, Video_ts and Bonus folders in the source box and created an ISO file. (I used the Planet Waves conversion). Mounted the ISO file and all three folders showed up just right. That said, the audio_ts and Video_ts would play in their respective players.

The default settings in ImgBurn take you through the ISO creation process regarding the ISO9660, ISO9660+UDF stuff. If you're experiencing trouble with creating and ISO image containing three folders, maybe re-installing would be helpful to reset to default values.

If this doesn't help, please ask specific questions and I'll run tests to get you the answers.

Hope it helps,
George

[wanners]

The 4GB limit of files on a hard drive,

Not sure why you list this as a problem, the NTFS file system does not have a 4gb limit, that's the FAT system that has the limit. Just reformat your HD for NTFS.

The digital realm has its faults, but for me the benefits outweigh the limitations by a mile.

[neil wilkes]

That's strange. My version of Chrome does not give the error message, nor does it balk at 24/96 files.

For Quad, it won't.
For 4.1 it should and for 5.1 it will.
This is why we use MLP.

[georgeshannon]

For Quad, it won't.
For 4.1 it should and for 5.1 it will.
This is why we use MLP.

Neil,

It does not. Try it, you'll see.

Its a simple thing. Load a 96/24 5.1 PCM file into Chrome and it will accept it as easily as a 96/24 5.1 MLP file. Burns well. I made a test disc. If you are unable to do this simple test, I could upload the test disc for you to see.

In fact, here is the upload: http://www.demonoid.com/files/detail...rel=1245762531 for all you Doubting Thomas's out there.

George

[QuadMusic]

This is a question that seems to come up with some regularity, but why even bother with burning a DVD-A unless you have an in-car DVD-A player?

Instead connect a PC with a multi-channel sound card to you vintage receivers. Find any album in seconds, jump staright to any track, preserve your valuable vinyl/Q4/Q8 source material, and still enjoy the sound of your classic receiver. Add in a bit of NR according to personal taste.

PC

[Ge Someone]

.. using ImgBurn to burn these .. What format should I be using? ISO9660, ISO9660+UDF etc???

ISO9660 + UDF with UDF Revision set to 1.02 .
I don't know if it makes a difference, but I drag the AUDIO_TS first to the file/folder window of IMGburn (as it should be at the start of the disc to have the offsets correct), then the VIDEO_TS (and the rest if there is any).
IMGburn gives a notice, something about 32kB padding. That means it knows you're trying to burn a DVD-A or V.

If that doesn't work something is probably wrong with the AUDIO_TS (maybe the way it was created or ripped from the image or disc).

(is it Santana Welcome? )

[wanners]

This is a question that seems to come up with some regularity, but why even bother with burning a DVD-A unless you have an in-car DVD-A player?

Instead connect a PC with a multi-channel sound card to you vintage receivers. Find any album in seconds, jump staright to any track, preserve your valuable vinyl/Q4/Q8 source material, and still enjoy the sound of your classic receiver. Add in a bit of NR according to personal taste.

PC

I hear you, but call me old fashioned, I have to burn everything and plop it into the DVD player on the HTS to get full enjoyment. I like the PC for back up.

[wanners]

Because Cirlinca allowed disc creation to continue even though it is out of spec as some players will be able to stream the audio, but it is not guaranteed to work. Rather like the inclusion of a Dolby Digital 640 stream on Floyd's "Pulse" album. It's out of spec, but some players will play it.
The DVD-A specifications give a maximum bitrate of 9.6Mb/sec for Audio, and uncompressed 24/96 5.1 is around 13.8Mb/sec.
What this means is that if it works for you, great. However, commercially it cannot be done as the specifications state 9.6

A belated thanks for the reply, Neil. It's it's nice to have you experts to answer these question, and I appreciate it

Although I agree with George that these limitations probably should not be forced upon us if they are not a natural limitation of the media.

[neil wilkes]

Although I agree with George that these limitations probably should not be forced upon us if they are not a natural limitation of the media.

That's the problem with anything designed & developed by committee.
It's always going to be a compromise.
For my mind, the daftest DVDA spec is the pitiful 2Mb buffer in players as a minimum requirement.

[neil wilkes]

Neil,

It does not. Try it, you'll see.

Its a simple thing. Load a 96/24 5.1 PCM file into Chrome and it will accept it as easily as a 96/24 5.1 MLP file. Burns well. I made a test disc. If you are unable to do this simple test, I could upload the test disc for you to see.

In fact, here is the upload: http://www.demonoid.com/files/detail...rel=1245762531 for all you Doubting Thomas's out there.

George

Then this is a bug. It might be explainable by the lack of a stereo stream (also out of spec as players are incapable of performing a downmix on the fly, and if a surround mix with no stereo option is played in a stereo only player, all you get is Front Left/Front Right).
I'm not saying you cannot do it - just that you should not be able to do it and that it's out of spec - period.
It might well play on a lot of players, but it is not guaranteed to work, and should not be possible to do this for that very reason.
The specs state a maximum stream bitrate of 9.6Mb/sec.

[georgeshannon]

Neil,

Thanks for the concession.

"I'm not saying you cannot do it - just that you should not be able to do it and that it's out of spec - period." I agree with you here; it is only a spec.

"...should not be able to do it..." is a far cry from:

"...nor does it balk at 24/96 files.

For Quad, it won't.
For 4.1 it should and for 5.1 it will.
This is why we use MLP."

I've recently read three articles where the maximum bitrate for DVDA was shown as 9.6Mbs. None of the articles cited a source for this erroneous maximum bitrate. Do you happen to know who concocted the 9.6Mbs maximum DVDA bitrate myth? I'd like to have a little chat with him/her.

Thanks in advance.

[neil wilkes]

I've recently read three articles where the maximum bitrate for DVDA was shown as 9.6Mbs. None of the articles cited a source for this erroneous maximum bitrate. Do you happen to know who concocted the 9.6Mbs maximum DVDA bitrate myth? I'd like to have a little chat with him/her.

Thanks in advance.

It is in the DVD-Audio Book Specifications.
These cost around $10,000 to purchase (done by those who create applications and/or players), similar charges apply to DVD-Video book specs too.
The spec limitation is not a myth. What needs to be understood is what the specification means, and it does not mean "no players will do this", it means that "all players must be capable of at least this".
Given the way specs are interpreted, that will mean in the real world that as a bare minimum, all players have to be capable of decoding - glitch free - a stream of 9.6Mb/sec. Given that the best you can do with LPCM is 24/96 in Quad without exceeding this bitrate, the specs further state that all above 9.6 require the mandatory use of MLP Lossless to get the rate below this figure. No disc can have a 24/96 5.1 LPCM stream and still be called DVD-Audio, because it ain't. It's out of spec.
Any applications that allow this are treading on very thin ice indeed, because these titles could simply never be used for replicated content carrying the logos. It will fail at glass mastering, and the disc should be rejected by the plant as out of spec.
The reason for this is simple - the specs are the absolute minimum tolerances for players, so for most cheap players, read "exactly what they generally do, and no more".
The disc would fail at factory simply because it could not be successfully played in all players, as there are plenty out there that cut off sharply at 9.6Mb/sec, and will simply not be capable of demuxing the streams. What happens is debatable, as different players error in different ways. The disc might skip, it might glitch, it might not load the overlays, it may play & stop or it may do any other thing except play properly.
it is an unknown quantity once you drift out of spec.

You can certainly do this on some applications, and BTW my copy of Chrome certainly will *not* accept a 5.1 LPCM set under any circumstances (I tried) and will try Sonic to see what that does.
My guess is that even if it does import, it won't compile without a spec violation warning. You can always compile through a spec violation if you choose to do so (or in Sonic's case, set this as a preference before attempting to compile) but what you end up with cannot get replicated, and playback cannot be guaranteed.

[georgeshannon]

Neil, you are definately the Go-To guy for the DVDA specification. I know you're a busy fellow so I want to thank you for taking the time for such a thoughtful and informative reply.

I understand now that given the definition of the term "DVD-Audio" the max bit-rate is 9.6Mbs. Discs made with different bit-rates (e.g. - 13.8Mbs) are by definition not DVD-Audio. Guess we need to call them DVD-A+ or something along that line.

Thanks also for trying your version of Chrome and attempting to author a disc at 96/24 LPCM 5.1. Sorry it didn't work for you. My version is 2.0.6 and doesn't give any error message or spec violation warning. Must be a bug in this version.

The fellow from post #10 who asked how to burn his .wav files to DVD can use MLP and call them DVDA or can burn them without MLP and call them DVD-A+ (if his tools support it).

Thanks, also to Biff84 who was successful in authoring a disc in 96/24 LPCM 5.1.

Great discussion. Very entertaining. Most informative.

[georgeshannon]

Having a little problem here...

I have an AUDIO_TS, a VIDEO_TS and a BONUS (an Audiospectrum release) folder that are in another main folder. I have tried using ImgBurn to burn these several different ways. I tried just choosing the 3 folders using the "Write Folders To Disc". Then I tried just the VTS and ATS folders. Then I tried all three folders in another main folder. Each time I get errors when playing the disc. What format should I be using? ISO9660, ISO9660+UDF etc??? I know I have used this to burn discs using folders but nothing on this one seems to work properly.

Thanks y'all.

Bob, did you solve the ImgBurn issue? I encountered that last night when I attempted to "Write Folders To Disc." The result was a disc that didn't load in the player. When I made an image from the folder first and then burned to image to disc, the disc loaded and played OK.

[wanners]

I just learned from experience that what Neil said is correct (as if we were doubting it) . The discs I burned out of spec in cirlinca DVD audio solo will not play properly on the new oppo bdp-83 blu-ray player. It starts to play the first song on the disc and then skips through all the rest. They all play fine in the oppo 980H, though.

It's interesting that the new player is more to spec. For me that's not good, because I'm always doing radical things on the fringes of reality.

[wanners]

Neil,

It does not. Try it, you'll see.

Its a simple thing. Load a 96/24 5.1 PCM file into Chrome and it will accept it as easily as a 96/24 5.1 MLP file. Burns well. I made a test disc. If you are unable to do this simple test, I could upload the test disc for you to see.

Can I have the bug your program has?

[sennyg23]

does converting a .wav track to mlp cause the length of the file to shorten?
because whenever I use surcode with my music , the mlp output is seconds or minutes shorter than the original wav