How Do I make a DVD-A?

echosend said:

Neil,
Yes, I mean on a Mac. Apparently my choice of alliance in the computer wars means I have made my bed and now I must lie in it.

I hadn't checked on Blu-Ray yet. I assumed it would be at least a little longer before the burners, the authoring software, and sound and video building applications and editors would become affordable. I know that Toast has offered support for BR video for a while now, so I guessed it wouldn't be long before Mac users could begin to explore all the possibilities of BR. Obviously, as BR allows for uncompressed audio, it would offer a decent possible replacement to the dvd-a disc in the future.

OK, so universal discs are definitely a dual layer thing? It sounded more like a double session thing with the player seeking out which session and its contents were applicable to it (just like a computer will "see" and be able to use both data and audio sessions of a mixed mode CD, but a regular CD player will only "see" the audio session). I know that DW Bronze does not do dual layer at all. If it's a DL thing you not only need to worry about how much total space of the disc the two _TS folders will need but you need to have the second layer be less than the first. I also thought there was no such thing as a DL -R disc. I've never been clear on the difference between - and + anyway.

As for image files, if I understand you correctly not only does the DIM, ISO, etc. need to be constructed properly (i.e. with DVD Studio Pro, Sonic, DW, WaveLab) according to the type of disc you wish to make (and embedded with, for lack of a better term, some kind of identifying information--again if it's not a flag per se, is it just specifically named files in specifically names places? There has to be some bit of data in there somewhere to tell the player what kind of disc it is), it also must be burned with authoring software (Toast, ImgBurn, Burn) that can actually DO that kind of image file. Neither Toast, at least my current version of it, nor Burn can do the universal disc ISO that I mentioned I acquired, neither can they do dvd-a discs from an ISO or an AUDIO_TS folder, although Toast does do dual layer dvd-v. Neither app will just burn any disc based on the content of the ISO; it has to be familiar with the type of disc in question apparently. I've asked SourceForge about the Burn problems because it is not necessarily stated that it will burn either universal discs or dvd-a discs from an AUDIO_TS folder, although it will apparently do dvd-a from regular stereo audio files.

So with DVD Studio Pro I can obviously make the correct dvd-v portion and with DW-B I can make the correct dvd-a portion. I need a Mac image file construction app to either create a universal disc image or merge a VIDEO_TS folder with the DIM file that DW-B would create and an authoring app that will correctly burn the resulting image file, correct? Because, obviously the ISO alone is not sufficient for just any burning program.

Click to expand...

Hello.

Universals are not always a dual layer thing - just very common.
Not even a dual session thing either, as you only burn once. What you do have to do is build 2 titles though - the Video_TS & the Audio_TS.

You are correct about the control over type of titles loaded is indeed based on certain files being in a certain place - for an Audio_TS to load in an Audio capable player, there must be an AUDIO_TS.IFO file located within the Audio_TS. If the player cannot find this, it will look for VIDEO_TS.IFO in the Video_TS etc.
Naturally, a non audio capable player will not look for the Audio_TS at all.

AFAIK, DVD Studio Pro cannot create a properly formatted Video_TS for DVDA use - it's an abstraction layer tool, and will create dummy VMGM files & VTSM files that should not be there, and additionally it will almost certainly use illegal commands in the construction (Pre & Post commands especially). Only way to know for sure is to take a DVD-SP created Video_TS file & attempt to import it into Sonic or Chrome. Maybe you could send me one and I will try it & see.......

As far as universal titles go, I think you are screwed with a mac unless there is a burn application that can do what IMGBurn does.
As far as I can tell, all you can do is an audio-only title from Bronze, which is of course fine for personal use.

echosend said:

Neil,
Yes, I mean on a Mac. Apparently my choice of alliance in the computer wars means I have made my bed and now I must lie in it.

Click to expand...

I recently bought my first Mac - a laptop - ironic too because I wanted to try an audio app that only runs on Mac..but needed a new laptop anyways..

There are way more tools for what you want to do in Windows - however can't you set up a Windows partition on your Mac? - I have done this on mine - works fine - other than you have to log in and out to switch back and forth..

This thread is great....from this I've managed to:

• 
  Downmix 96/24 WAV files to 48/24 so they fit on a single layer DVD-R (via Audiomuxer)

• 
  Burn a DVD-A using DVD-Audio Solo

• 
  Use multiAVCHD to burn Hi-rez audio WAV files on a DVD-R for playback on Blu-ray players...

Awesome!!!!!! Thanks to all......

Neil, sent you a PM.

Andy

After hours of reading DVD-A related threads, posts I'm wondering if there are tool(s) available for viewing the structure of a DVD-A. For VIDEO_TS (DVD-V) there are numerous tools - there's PGCEdit referenced several times in QQ forums, for MAC users there's myDVDEdit for example. These are useful for seeing how DVDs are put together and can be used to fix problems/bugs). It'd be interesting to see how the nice looking DVD-A discs are done - not that Chrome can be used to do the same thing(s)

schultz1010 said:

After hours of reading DVD-A related threads, posts I'm wondering if there are tool(s) available for viewing the structure of a DVD-A. For VIDEO_TS (DVD-V) there are numerous tools - there's PGCEdit referenced several times in QQ forums, for MAC users there's myDVDEdit for example. These are useful for seeing how DVDs are put together and can be used to fix problems/bugs). It'd be interesting to see how the nice looking DVD-A discs are done - not that Chrome can be used to do the same thing(s)

Click to expand...

Sadly I have never seen one.
PGCEdit can actually rework every navigational command on the Video_TS completely.
DVD-A heirarchy is not that difficult to do. There is also a freeware open source toolkit - I do not know how good it is though, as it is entirely based on reverse engineering - and some very useful information can be found there (but be careful)
What you have on AUDIO_TS is essentially this:

1 - PGC Menus - these are navigational and never track associated.
2 - GROUPS.
A GROUP is a series of tracks and their associated visual imagery (ASV = Audio Still Visual).
A track can have associated images as either still images, browseable slideshows or timed slideshows, but you cannot mix timed & browseable in the same group.
You can get up to maybe 15-20 images in one ASVU - Audio Still Video Unit) without it starting to use noticeable compression on the images (which will be encoded usually as very high bitrate MPEG-2 stills) so watch how many segued tracks there are - 2 segued tracks sets that 15-20 limitation to that amount across both tracks so a live album will be very restricted imagery use or the quality will drop.
ODDITY - there is no provision in the specs for a main menu call from any track associated menu. Workaround: add a 1-second silent track at the end of the group and point main menu calls tho this, which will "play" and execute end action & return to top menu.
You can add ONE Video track to any DVD-A group, and one only. However you can use a VTS with chapter marks, called VTS_PTT, and get round things that way.
A GROUP once playback is started will play to the last track & return to main menu, so VIDEO tracks are usually in their own group.

Hope this helps

Thanks for chiming in - appreciated.

I had hoped there would be a tool that show the navigation/cell/etc structure for DVD-A in the same way as for DVD-V but sadly, as you say, that does not appear tone the case.

Yes, I know of the open source toolkit mentioned. without MLP support it's of limited utility and getting the dependencies (modified mkisofs, etc) together is an annoyance but there is some useful information in the documentation.

Thanks again!

neil wilkes said:

Sadly I have never seen one.
PGCEdit can actually rework every navigational command on the Video_TS completely.
DVD-A heirarchy is not that difficult to do. There is also a freeware open source toolkit - I do not know how good it is though, as it is entirely based on reverse engineering - and some very useful information can be found there (but be careful)
What you have on AUDIO_TS is essentially this:

1 - PGC Menus - these are navigational and never track associated.
2 - GROUPS.
A GROUP is a series of tracks and their associated visual imagery (ASV = Audio Still Visual).
A track can have associated images as either still images, browseable slideshows or timed slideshows, but you cannot mix timed & browseable in the same group.
You can get up to maybe 15-20 images in one ASVU - Audio Still Video Unit) without it starting to use noticeable compression on the images (which will be encoded usually as very high bitrate MPEG-2 stills) so watch how many segued tracks there are - 2 segued tracks sets that 15-20 limitation to that amount across both tracks so a live album will be very restricted imagery use or the quality will drop.
ODDITY - there is no provision in the specs for a main menu call from any track associated menu. Workaround: add a 1-second silent track at the end of the group and point main menu calls tho this, which will "play" and execute end action & return to top menu.
You can add ONE Video track to any DVD-A group, and one only. However you can use a VTS with chapter marks, called VTS_PTT, and get round things that way.
A GROUP once playback is started will play to the last track & return to main menu, so VIDEO tracks are usually in their own group.

Hope this helps

Click to expand...

It really is simple.
As long as the Sonic tool has the correct folder structure for assets (this really is important, and is covered in the manual) it will find everything.
Structure is simplicity - see attached screenshot below:



You will see the structure immediately - main menu space under "Language", then the 4 Groups, and I have expanded one track in the MLP group to show you how tis done.

Cool. As other threads have mentioned the documentation is scarce. For the "educational" version of DAC would this http://delancie.net/PD_Samples/Sonic-DAC_Guide-draft2.pdf be a sufficient manual?

That's all there ever was.
It's strange - in both this application (DAC) and Chrome, neither of the so-called educational builds were released to the owners of the software.
I have no idea what bugs are in DAC 3.0.5 - they will be there though.
There should be enough in there to get you started, and it does explain the structure quite well.
I have some White Papers for stuff that may not be so obviously inferred, and will dig these out & make them available as they were never under any ND agreement.

Or bypass all the science and engineering and just do what all the restoration people do - get one of the discrete 6-channel direct-to-optical real-time recorders - usually writes one number per 700MB disc and then masters from a `changer' if you will (multi-drive) of 5-1/4-inch magneto-opticals in caddies (like in the graphics lab of your local junior college) - although there are several versions that write live to DVD-A-RW.

They use these for transferring 6-track 35MM full-coat mag to an audition disc before the `real' restoration transfer is made so producers and engineers can hear them in their own home studio DVD players without having to have any special gear.

Meaning you can do the same thing by using a half-inch 8-track recorder - ubiquitous and can be had for a pittance from eBay or at junior colleges and churches which have upgraded to digital.

Stripe your tape i.e. lay timecode down on 8 - leave 7 blank, rewind, connect your resolver back to your computer's main clock and then lay your program down on 1 through 6. Then once you read the timecode back into the standalone disc recorder it will correct for all the miniscule speed variations endemic to the format - and leave you with most of the benefits of analog without many of the headaches.

Then simply finalize the disc in the standalone recorder - rip it with any program that supports reading DVD-A, clone it into an disc image and burn as many as you want.

Really - wow, that is fascinating (and more than a bit weird).

For DAC I've only seen the one educational version (3.0.5) but for Chrome I've seen 2.0.25, 2.0.26 and 2.0.30 - the last I think was released to the owners of the software.

Thanks for the info - I'll print the draft - I wanted some idea if there was a more complete version floating about the internet before expending the ink.

It'll be enough to produce something when I get that far - battling DLP at the moment as you're aware

Wow - any added info you might have would be a welcome gift! :sun

neil wilkes said:

That's all there ever was.
It's strange - in both this application (DAC) and Chrome, neither of the so-called educational builds were released to the owners of the software.
I have no idea what bugs are in DAC 3.0.5 - they will be there though.
There should be enough in there to get you started, and it does explain the structure quite well.
I have some White Papers for stuff that may not be so obviously inferred, and will dig these out & make them available as they were never under any ND agreement.

Click to expand...

well - I've burned my first (and likely only) DVD-A authored with DAC (3.0.5). Painful - learning experience so the days/weeks of free time frittered away aren't a total waste.

The hope was that DAC could do what Chrome calls "Active Menus" - navigable menus for tracks derived from a single long file (aka 'track points' or what DAC labels "multiple tracks per audio file"). It's known that Active Menus not using individual audio file per track do not work in Chrome https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...cWelder-Chrome-2-quot-Gotchas-quot-Be-careful

I say now the SAME limitation applies to Sonic DAC as well. I carefully created the dozen (unique) menus, overlays, button highlight files and then used the Track Editor in "Import Audio" to create (virtual) "tracks" (aka "Track Points") thus:



then added tracks and Single Page menus in Author:



going thru the rest of the programs, adding navigation, etc and ignoring the VTSM error in Format the AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS were placed on a DVD+RW (luckily I have a version of the mkisofs program that knows about dvd-audio/AUDIO_TS)

The MENU from the FIRST track comes up and the buttons work fine - BUT that's the only menu you ever see, same as with Chrome! Can move up and down, select another track and the menu is still the one from the first "track". Damn. Guess none of the DVD-A software authors could figure out how to break a long file into chunks add the menus and then mux it all back together with a seamless play flag of some sort.

If I have to split the audio file into little pieces and do a dozen encodes and then still have gaps at playback time what's the point of suffering DAC's oddities and foibles. True it has a lighter weight AL and gives access to the VM but for the 'show a still at each chapter and press Menu to get to the home menu' DVD-A there's a lot to be said for Chrome.

Maybe it's a 3.0.5 bug but running Author resets/loses any button info that might have been added in CommandEditor - very painful to constantly have to add a dozen buttons worth of linkage info.

If the experiment had worked I'd probably stick with DAC and figure out how to make the DVD-A look/feel better but the main thing I wanted to do isn't possible so I'm going to go back to programs that are simpler and to my way of thinking easier.

neil wilkes said:

That's all there ever was.
It's strange - in both this application (DAC) and Chrome, neither of the so-called educational builds were released to the owners of the software.
I have no idea what bugs are in DAC 3.0.5 - they will be there though.
There should be enough in there to get you started, and it does explain the structure quite well.
I have some White Papers for stuff that may not be so obviously inferred, and will dig these out & make them available as they were never under any ND agreement.

Click to expand...

discWelder can do "active menu" with single (marked by track points) track but background picture in such case cannot be changed from one song to another.
actually i'm curious why do you messing with DVD-A authoring apps, instead of BD-A, if you want to make music on the disc?

0tto said:

discWelder can do "active menu" with single (marked by track points) track but background picture in such case cannot be changed from one song to another.
actually i'm curious why do you messing with DVD-A authoring apps, instead of BD-A, if you want to make music on the disc?

Click to expand...

Well, yes - active menus "work" but the only menu you see is from the first one on the track. The buttons work - HOWEVER the highlighted button does not change with each song/trackpoint! The DVD-A discs I have (Carly Simon's "No Secrets" and Linda Ronstadt's "What's New") are perfect examples of what I wanted to achieve - but the tools today can not do it.

That is this problem

https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...cWelder-Chrome-2-quot-Gotchas-quot-Be-careful

what I did was use a simple still for each track point - on that is the title of the song with a message saying that the <next>/<prev>/<home/title> buttons work. That combined with a home menu offering a choice of starting track/play-all and I'm content.

BD-A is less portable for my needs. Part of what I want to do is send a disc to friends and family. BD-A they do not understand or know what to do with. DVD-V players or dvd player software they have - so the VIDEO_TS that I author onto the disc can be used. For my use the AUDIO_TS area is perfect now that I understand the limitations of the authoring software. I have learned that it is not possible to create discs today that look/feel like the discs made in the 2002 era. Yes, higher sampling rate, etc can be used on BD-A but seriously how much is needed to put QS/SQ records onto a shiny disc?

Maybe in the future I'll start the search for BD-A authoring software. Yes, the Cirlinca software can do it (and I have it) but I haven't done more research to see what else is out there. I know Sony's BluPrint software for Blu Ray authoring is very expensive.

For now using DVD Lab Pro2 for the VIDEO side (and the authoring of that is almost trivial once a person gets used to the user interface of the program) and Discwelder Chrome for the AUDIO_TS is a combination that's working very well :music I just had to trim back my expectations a little

i guess BD-A at this time is more acceptable due to more affordable and available in households BD players
than pretty specialized and thus more rare DVD-A players.
anyway, basic BD-A without complex navigation just with simple slideshow and 5.1/2.0 audio streams you can
make with simple slideshow appz to create visual part and then combine it with audio in any available appz able
to remux video and audio into blu ray disc architecture.
for more complex project you may try Adobe Premiere albeit in this case perhaps you need to look for older version,
since latest one cloud based and available only for subscription with annual cost about $600

0tto said:

i guess BD-A at this time is more acceptable due to more affordable and available in households BD players
than pretty specialized and thus more rare DVD-A players.

Click to expand...

that's why I put a DVD-V (VIDEO_TS) on the 'hybrid' disc - people without a DVD-A player still have a DVD-V disc they can play, I have a DVD-A disc I can play and everyone's happy. And I don't have to learn/buy yet another authoring tool - not for a little time longer

0tto said:

for more complex project you may try Adobe Premiere albeit in this case perhaps you need to look for older version,
since latest one cloud based and available only for subscription with annual cost about $600

Click to expand...

I don't like renting software. It's why I have not and will not upgrade photoshop beyond what I currently have Also, it's not worth it to me for the projects I'm doing. On another QQ forum there's the Involve Surround Master https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?18022-INVOLVE-SQ-IS-HERE - for decoding SQ/QS records.

For that project a DVD-A and perhaps DTS for DVD-V is more than sufficient. Not anxious to get involved with yet another format at this time. Maybe later

DAC does do track screens perfectly well.
I think the problem is that you only added one menu per track - this is only ever going to give you one menu, and you will also need to provide the proper SPHL files for buttons to work.
Okay - I cannot speak for 3.0.5 as my build is 3.0 (11) but it definitely works.
You can create as many menus per track as you want to, and these can be single page, multi-page & browseable.
You need to import these correctly with the IMPORT MENU dialogue too.
Highlighted buttons by default is something you set in Command Edit - just pick the button you want to be force selected.


I am away for the next 10 days, but will post when I am back & get this sorted - it definitely works, and once you know the process it is far, far faster than Chrome is.
The problem will be the terminology & structure - DAC assumes you know this stuff, as does Chrome. It's all about asset preparation.

neil wilkes said:

DAC does do track screens perfectly well.
I think the problem is that you only added one menu per track - this is only ever going to give you one menu, and you will also need to provide the proper SPHL files for buttons to work.

Click to expand...

I only added one track per menu because the menu (background) is the same except for a number for tracking/testing purposes. The only difference between tracks is which button is highlighted. I did have highlight layer and button highlight files as called for.

Each menu's Highlight (HL) layer was unique so it would be obvious which track's menu was being displayed. Only the menu from the 1st track ever displayed.

The problem is that only the menu from the first track is ever displayed and the button that is highlighted does not change. That is the exact same problem you mentioned in the thread about Chrome.

I really think, and perhaps when you return you can speak to the issue in more detail, the problem is using "track points" (yeah, that's Chrome terminology) or "file containing multiple tracks" (DAC terminology). Yes, if the tracks are created from individual files and NOT regions inside a single file then the menus track/work fine - but with a gap between them but if you want continuous play and just have the menu change there's either some secret sauce involved or it can't be done. Perhaps all the albums that appear to do it have gaps or breaks and aren't continuous/segue'd files/tracks.

neil wilkes said:

Okay - I cannot speak for 3.0.5 as my build is 3.0 (11) but it definitely works.
You can create as many menus per track as you want to, and these can be single page, multi-page & browseable.
You need to import these correctly with the IMPORT MENU dialogue too.
Highlighted buttons by default is something you set in Command Edit - just pick the button you want to be force selected.

Click to expand...

Did that - each track (created as shown from a single file using the track editor) had its own menu with that forced on. ONLY the menu from the first track in the group was ever displayed. Only the menu from the 1st track ever was used with only button 1 highlighted initially - as each track played the button highlight didn't change, it stayed wherever the user had navigated to. The expectation was that the highlighted button would change to the one being forced on for each track's menu but that never happened. Same behavior as you describe (and we've all encountered) in https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...cWelder-Chrome-2-quot-Gotchas-quot-Be-careful

So yes, only 1 menu per track but only the menu from the first track ever was displayed. I hope we're not going round and round about word usage - what a track is for example. If there's a difference between tracks carved out of a single file using start/end offsets in the track editor and individually encoded/edited/split files this would be a good time to clarify the issue - the documentation doesn't say the two are not equivalent.

neil wilkes said:

I am away for the next 10 days, but will post when I am back & get this sorted - it definitely works, and once you know the process it is far, far faster than Chrome is.
The problem will be the terminology & structure - DAC assumes you know this stuff, as does Chrome. It's all about asset preparation.

Click to expand...

At this point I'll have to definitely disagree on the faster part. Lost many days discovering that, in 3.0.5 at least, if you ever re-run Author (to tweek/adjust) anything AFTER you've run Command/Editor ALL of your button navigation gets wiped out! SO after adjusting up/down button for 13 buttons on 12 menus and losing all that work a couple times I gave up and knocked out a DVD-A in Chrome in a few hours. And Chrome lets me draw the buttons instead of having another file for the button highlight layer

Static still image at chapter points (trackpoints, tracks - what word can we agree on?) do change as expected so I just put a a simple message saying ("Next, Prev, Menu buttons may be used") on the still and declared victory - lot less pain and suffering

Have a good trip (hopefully pleasure

How would you set about doing something like the Ronstadt "What's New?" album (hopefully you've had a chance to listen/view it by now :music

Going to put a quick project together in 3.0.11 and post some screenshots.
3.0.5 was never released to the public though, so not sure of it's quirks......