The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

[TACET]

I once send Mr Spreer an e-mail asking if he actually moves the musician around, I mean positioning them as per what we hear (I do not mean moving while playing!) He was evasive in his answer (probably a trade secret).

no trade secret, Jean-Marc!

For a couple of years already the musicians position during the recording session is not the same as on the finished disc. I prefer to try different settings in my studio. And often - even more important - together with the surround recording simultaneously a special one point stereo version is recorded for the release on CD and LP which means that the musicians have to sit accordingly to what is needed for stereo.

In the beginning this was different. For the first years we were restricted by technical means and had to decide before the surround recording session "who sits where". This can work, too. For those interested the booklet of one of our early DVD-A discs (D94 Mendelssohn octet and quartet, played by Auryn & Minguet quartet) was inserted in our website (pdf format)
http://www.tacet.de/download/D94_Booklet.pdf. For the Mendelssohn the Auryns and Minguets had to sit in this special order. They liked it! (Same with item numbers D101, D108, D112, D118)

Does anybody have a list of recordings which are done in "Real Surround" manner? During last High End show in Munich I heard a sample of a Swedish comany. It was a Mozart violin concerto with the orchestra behind the listener and the solo in front. Unfortunately I do not remember more details. That was really good! If there is a list of those titles - including pop, rock etc. - we could place it on our website or insert a link to it.

Andreas

[jmserre]

no trade secret, Jean-Marc!

For a couple of years already the musicians position during the recording session is not the same as on the finished disc. I prefer to try different settings in my studio. And often - even more important - together with the surround recording simultaneously a special one point stereo version is recorded for the release on CD and LP which means that the musicians have to sit accordingly to what is needed for stereo.

In the beginning this was different. For the first years we were restricted by technical means and had to decide before the surround recording session "who sits where". This can work, too. For those interested the booklet of one of our early DVD-A discs (D94 Mendelssohn octet and quartet, played by Auryn & Minguet quartet) was inserted in our website (pdf format)
http://www.tacet.de/download/D94_Booklet.pdf. For the Mendelssohn the Auryns and Minguets had to sit in this special order. They liked it! (Same with item numbers D101, D108, D112, D118)

Does anybody have a list of recordings which are done in "Real Surround" manner? During last High End show in Munich I heard a sample of a Swedish comany. It was a Mozart violin concerto with the orchestra behind the listener and the solo in front. Unfortunately I do not remember more details. That was really good! If there is a list of those titles - including pop, rock etc. - we could place it on our website or insert a link to it.

Andreas

Thanks again for your time. mmmm I thought I had all of your multi-channel recordings but for some strange reason I do not have this one, I will remedy this as quickly as I can, as you know I am in Canada so I will go through Adagio.

Your booklet explains better than I ever could why I think your approach is the best, it is not that you just do what you do randomly you really think and study the music to devise the best presentation to make it as vivid as possible.

As for recordings from other companies that are in the same style than yours I can think of only two:

On Telarc the LAQG (Los Angeles Guitar Quartet) latin with 1 guitar in each speakers (4.0) well recorded and dynamic.

A recent recording by 2L (a package of SACD and Blu-ray) SONaR for harp. The musician are around the harpist. In particular the third piece has voices floating all around. A note to reader of this thread this is comptemporay music, I enjoyed it very much, but it is not "easy" music. 2L is from Norway.

[TACET]

On Telarc the LAQG (Los Angeles Guitar Quartet) latin with 1 guitar in each speakers (4.0) well recorded and dynamic.
A recent recording by 2L (a package of SACD and Blu-ray) SONaR for harp. The musician are around the harpist. In particular the third piece has voices floating all around. A note to reader of this thread this is comptemporay music, I enjoyed it very much, but it is not "easy" music. 2L is from Norway.

Perhaps this was mistakable. Apart from the "moving" versions - there are surely some more recordings with the listener surrounded by instruments than these two, not only on TACET. I know of a couple of them and could try to find them out for recommendation, e. g. AIX, some the old Quadro recordings, an early DVD-A of Naxos with Vivaldi, the mentioned Mozart violin concerto etc. But maybe this is not necessary and somebody knows them all?

[wanners]

There's a disc made in Norway of Mozart's violin concertos, with Marianne Thorsen--Trondheimsolistene. I don't think it's the one you're talking about because it doesn't sound quite so discrete as you describe. But you are surrounded by instruments and it is significantly more than merely ambient. The sound quality is brilliant (at least to me!)

I just got a few TACET discs, Mozart, Beethoven and waiting for Vivaldi in moving surround (they sent me the SACD by accident insead of the DVDA).

I'll write about them soon. Don't expect too much though as I'm no classical music expert, but I don't worry, only good things to say.

I'll also list the AIX discs I have that I know are discrete MC.

[wanners]

Does anyone know if there will be a near future release of the brandenburg concertos in moving surround sound? The dvda has real surround sound but not moving.

[TACET]

Does anyone know if there will be a near future release of the brandenburg concertos in moving surround sound? The dvda has real surround sound but not moving.

No, there will be no moving version. As written above this recording was done in the very beginning with reduced technical possibílities. We had 8 channels in total and only 4 for direct instrument mics. When you move around one of those you move one quarter of the orchestra...

Thank you, wanner and jmserre for your comments about other "real" surround recordings. Obviously there are not many which try to make use of the whole 360 degree circle for more than acoustical information. I might be proud of this - and I am - but that's only half of the truth. It would be much more helpful for everybody to have more than one company here. There are many listeners who are interested in our concept but wonder whether they should buy a surround equipment only for TACET recordings. My idea was to offer a list of all those productions no matter if they are good or not - but obviously it's not enough. Or is it worth trying? Anyway thank you for your comments!
Andreas

[jmserre]

..........

Thank you, wanner and jmserre for your comments about other "real" surround recordings. Obviously there are not many which try to make use of the whole 360 degree circle for more than acoustical information. I might be proud of this - and I am - but that's only half of the truth. It would be much more helpful for everybody to have more than one company here. There are many listeners who are interested in our concept but wonder whether they should buy a surround equipment only for TACET recordings. My idea was to offer a list of all those productions no matter if they are good or not - but obviously it's not enough. Or is it worth trying? Anyway thank you for your comments!
Andreas

There are many listeners who are interested in our concept but wonder whether they should buy a surround equipment only for TACET recordings

Ah Ah! Of course I would agree that for a single of your surround recording it is worth it :-) I hope this thread is helping a bit and will bring more convert.

I have to explain something else: I gave only 2 examples because I think many other companies (particularly on pop-rock-jazz) music have tried the samething but not with as much success. The result is instruments on the rear (or side) that are musically disconnected from what is going on at the front.

Keep up the good work! Hopefully other recording studios will try to copy you :-)

[TACET]

jmserre asked 3 questions about the "TACET's 4 Seasons" recording and suggested to post the answers here:

1- This is a 4.0 recording, so this brings the (not very original question) of when to use or not to use the center channel. So do you have any insight about this? Another way to ask the same question is one choice could have been to put the violin in the center channel.

-> Bear in mind that the seasons "walk" around the listener from spring (left) to winter (behind). Each direction is of equal worth. Why should the summer from the front be privileged by an additional channel?

Normally the two most important reasons to use the center channel are:
- If something is mixed directly to the center it will be located there - no matter where the listener is or moves around currently. If mixed in mono to the two front channels FL and FR the locating depends on the position of the listener. If he sits more on the left hand he will locate the signal more on the left. However there is a disadvantage: Often a better sound can be achieved by using two mics (stereo) instead of one (mono) for a mic spot. This does not work with only one (center) channel.
- Introducing the center channel gives more reserves for sound pressure, e. g. the end of the "Pictures of an exhibition" in MRSS (D132) with Markus Schirmer.

Anyway use of center or not does not say anything about sound quality in the terms of frequency response etc.


2- According to this review http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=4659 they do say that tube microphones were employed only for the stereo version is this true? Do you feel anything less good about the multichannel version? On my sound system I like the multi-channel version a lot better but admitedly there is a question of taste here, and my sound system is optimized for multi-channel anyway.

-> We use tube microphones for everything. Our collection includes more than 20 of them. We use a lot of tube amplifiers, also more than 20, but the latter ones not exclusively. "Tube only" would means: everything except A-/D-conversion is tube based. For stereo we can offer this option of exclusiveness and additionally are able to store the signal on a tube tape machine, cut by hand etc. For the multi-channel version most is done with tube equipment - but not all.


3- The excellent harpsichord player is listed as Wieslawa Frankowska, I am guessing it is a woman? Is this correct? I was really impressed by her playing. Hope to hear more of her in future recordings.

-> Yes, you are rightI I like her very much, too.

By the way: There is a new DVD-A on stock - Vol. 1 of Auryn's Haydn. To be released on September 15.

Andreas Spreer

[jmserre]

Hello

Here is my review of another wonderful TACET SACD. Vivaldi four seasons with Daniel Gaede as the soloist. This is also available as a DVD-Audio with an alternate sound take (Moving real surround). But I purchased the SACD before knowing a DVD-A was coming up.

http://www.geocities.com/jmserre/ENTacet4Saisons.html

(for those who read french that version is here)

http://www.geocities.com/jmserre/FRTacet4Saisons.html

Be patient if you get an error message it is simply that the very limited bandwidth allocated has been violated, try later (this reset every hour).

By the way geocities is closing at the end of October so I will have to move my little site, more on this later.

[SoonerCaniac]

To follow-up with Andreas' earlier post:

NEW RELEASE:



Auryn Quartet - Haydn: String Quartets op. 1, nos. 1-6 (Auryn's Haydn: op. 1, Vol. 1 of 14)

Despite no input from myself (many reasons, none probably very good ), I am still glad and appreciative to see some discussion on everything Tacet. Keep it coming!

Regards,
Josh

PS - Holst's The Planets + Tacet's Real Surround Sound = Dream come true! (shameless hint)

[wanners]

I've been doing a lot of listening (to TACET and other releases), and a lot of research, so when I finally post, it will likely be a doosey. Hopefully will fill some gaps. Surround sound in classical music is all over the place, inconsistent, and not often discussed in detail-- but there is some good info out there and there are other (but not many) releases that utilize "real" surround sound, i.e., in the TACET vein.

I have the TACET VIVALDI DVDA. The moving surround sound is great, moving activity is appropriate and tasteful in accordance with the music.

My reviews probably won't be as useful to afficianodos because of my lack of knowledge of classical music, but they will hopefully be helpful somehow

[wolfram]

I've spent the last 98 minutes listening to the new Haydn quartets that I have for three days now. Beautiful music and the sound and mix is as great as I've expected from knowing the Beethoven string quartets (the positioning of the instruments is the same). Unfotunately my disc is faulty and I my player makes a very loud rattling noise, that only disappears after track 6. So I will have to send it back and wait for a replacement . But I don't want to whine, this can happen and it's the first time I've had any problems with a Tacet product. The music is still great and showed me once more that the real surround sound works especially well with string quartets.

@jmserre
thanks once more for your amazingly detailed analysis of the 4 Seasons. I'm still undecided if I should get them. I don't doubt the quality, I'm just unsure if I need to hear that music a few times more in my life. It's really been sort of overused for my taste. But maybe this new mix would make me discover it as new again.

@wanners
could you tell me a bit more about the moving surround sound of the 4 Seasons? Is it really moving? Or just changing the placing of the instruments between movements? I'm also undecided which version to get (if any), dvd-a or sacd. I sometimes find a hi-rez stereo version nice as well. But then again, I find the moving surround versions more and more interesting (Pictures at an exhibition is pretty cool in all its jumping and moving around). Arrgh, I don't know! Maybe I should just save my money for the next 13 Haydn discs . Or the last of the Beethoven quartets, which should be out any day now . Or the next symphonies...

[wanners]

sorry it took me so long to get back to you. It is moving, but it doesn't over do it. I remember thinking that there wasn't a radical difference between the two mixes, as with "Pictures". But as the seasons progress, there is more panning and movement.

I need to listen to them again to get a better feel for the the major differences.

Both mixes are great--the best VIVALDI four seasons out there.

[wolfram]

Thanks wanners. I think sooner or later I will get this one as well. After all it's a beautiful piece of music (which is why it's been so overused in the first place) and I'm sure these new mixes will make it worth listening again.

[SoonerCaniac]

NEW RELEASE:



Auryn Quartet - Haydn: String Quartets op. 33, nos. 1-6 (Auryn's Haydn: op. 33, Vol. 6 of 14)

Regards,
Josh

[TACET]

Hey Surrounders!

The mix of "Auryn's Beethoven Vol. 4" is finished. Pooh - that was hard work. Now we need only some time for the regular manufacturing process. Release date (if nothing happens) december 15.

Next release Beethoven symphonies 3 & 4 in January.

And another good news: Beethoven symphony no. 9 comes up! We now plan with June 2010 for the recording date.

By the way - this is probably too late for anybody of the readers – starting on Friday November 6 until Sunday November 8 I will present TACET recordings during the "klangBilder" show in Vienna, Austria on the Sony boost. I plan to compare 4 different sound carriers with identical musical takes, the Vivaldi 4 Seasons in tube only stereo on vinyl and on CD, in TACET Real Surround Sound on SACD and in Moving Real Surround Sound on DVD-A. Next occasion: High End in Munich/Germany in May 6-9, 2010.

Andreas Spreer

[wanners]

If I win the lottery, I'll see you there in May. It will be brunch in France, dinner in Italy and Music in Germany. I can dream, right?

[jmserre]

Hey Surrounders!

The mix of "Auryn's Beethoven Vol. 4" is finished. Pooh - that was hard work. Now we need only some time for the regular manufacturing process. Release date (if nothing happens) december 15.

Next release Beethoven symphonies 3 & 4 in January.

And another good news: Beethoven symphony no. 9 comes up! We now plan with June 2010 for the recording date.

By the way - this is probably too late for anybody of the readers – starting on Friday November 6 until Sunday November 8 I will present TACET recordings during the "klangBilder" show in Vienna, Austria on the Sony boost. I plan to compare 4 different sound carriers with identical musical takes, the Vivaldi 4 Seasons in tube only stereo on vinyl and on CD, in TACET Real Surround Sound on SACD and in Moving Real Surround Sound on DVD-A. Next occasion: High End in Munich/Germany in May 6-9, 2010.

Andreas Spreer

Hello Mr Spreer!

The mix of "Auryn's Beethoven Vol. 4" is finished. Pooh - that was hard work.

Can you comment? I would have expected that having already done the first 3 sets you would have used the same basic recipe for this one. Now I know in character the later ones (in particular op 133 and 135) are quite "modern" so this is probably what you are alluding to. But any hindsight on this would be appreciated.

Finally if this is not confidential I think we would be all curious as to what equipment you chose to present your recordings in public :-)

[wolfram]

The mix of "Auryn's Beethoven Vol. 4" is finished. Pooh - that was hard work. Now we need only some time for the regular manufacturing process. Release date (if nothing happens) december 15.

Next release Beethoven symphonies 3 & 4 in January.

And another good news: Beethoven symphony no. 9 comes up! We now plan with June 2010 for the recording date.

Yes! Exciting news. Looking forward to all of these. Can't wait to hear the 'Eroica' in Real Surround. Not to mention the 9th. I think I will shorten the wait for the last quartets by ordering the 2nd round of the Haydn ones (my Tacet-dealer offers free delivery for the next few days), I have been listening to the first ones quite a bit lately. Very nice.
I'm actually planning to visit the High End in Munich next year. If I do, I will definitely come to see your presentation.

[wanners]

Seems like Germany is the place to be for classical. My father's an avid classical collector and was mentioning that in the early days of cd, they all came out of Germany--don't know it that's really true or not.

Cant wait for the 3rd as well, and especially the 9th. Saving the best for last, I guess.

Andreas-- will there be moving surround versions? It seems I'm one of the few who loves the moving versions. I hope that you continue to make them, in face of what seems like a lot of unneccessary criticism, considering that anyone can choose not to listen to it.

[Almen]

Hm, interesting thread! First time I hear about Tacet, will have to check it out.


By the way, "tacet" is a musical term for silence, nicht wahr? Reminds me of a Robert Fripp quote:

Music is the wine that fills the cup of silence

[TACET]

Vol. 4 in "normal" Real Surround Sound is not so much work, you are right. But the "Moving" version - independent on the quality of the result - is a huge amount of work. Every single passage has to be arranged separately.

The demo on the Vienna show was done on the Sony boost. I did not choose the equipment, but it worked quite well. The problem on these shows is normally not the equipment but the surroundings - acoustics, noise, hubbub, fuss, din, kerfuffle (all taken from the online dictionary...)

[TACET]

- saving the best and the most expensive for last, yes. I look forward to it!

Definitely there will be more Moving Real Surrond Sound versions. However - as just explained to jmserre - it's so much work that I need some time between two projects. Don't worry, there are plenty of projects and a lot more ideas.

[TACET]

yes, that's right. Our problem today: the silence is gone -

The word TACET is used in the sheet music if a player has to pause during a movement. This is a paradoxical name for a record company and that's why I like and choose it.

[wanners]

In response to Andreas question posed earlier about companies other than TACET that might be doing a similar thing with surround music--I take that to mean "who is creating new recorded classical music in surround utilizing all the channels creatively?" We all know there has been older music re-released in glorious multichannel (read "real surround sound"), such as the Vanguard classics, the DTS releases and some of the Silverline Classics (as well as one or two other labels here and there.)

Well, I think we can add one more company to the short list that includes TACET and AIX. That would be 2L. They have a broad range of styles, much of it classical. this is what the creator of 2L says on his website http://www.2l.no/ :

Stereo versus multi channel surround sound – The quest of resolution


Double the investment in your stereo play-back system and you might experience a subjective increase in performance in the range from 10 to 20 %. Then spread the same investment over a 5.1 surround sound system and you get an objective 300 % increase of resolution and perspective! The fact that makes the above balance not materialize is that very few labels up to now have produced content that bring out the full potential of MCH. The approach of “rear for ambience only” is still feeding carbohydrates to the persistent claims of stereophiles.
When it comes to recording a solo instrument, a lot of conservative forces claim that surround sound can add nothing to a good stereo. This might be the case with a traditional dry "synthetic" multi-mono-sources studio recording. But to us it's not about the object itself; it's all about the landscape where the instruments perform. In real life a grand piano is not a point source; it's a three dimensional sculpture, and surround sound is our tool to bring forward that physical experience to the listener.

Morten Lindberg, January 2009