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Thread: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

  1. #26
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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Argh, I was afraid of that. So I really will have to get some of these AIX releases as well...

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Yup!

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfram View Post
    OK, I will try to re-animate this thread a little (or just hijack it and finally turn it into my own little Tacet Blog). When I wrote this mail to Tacet a few weeks ago, I also told them about this thread, because I thought they might like the idea. They obviously liked it - and mention it on their "news"-page (including link)...


    You've made my week Wolfram! Thank you for sharing this thread with Tacet; I can't tell you how excited I am that they have expressed interest in this thread/discussion and linked it to their website! While I realize this forum is primarily geared towards pop/rock, my recent interest in Tacet made me realize that there is a place for discrete multichannel in classical as well. Now that we have their attention, I look forward to reading and contributing reviews, discussion, feedback about Tacet's ambitious projects.

    I've spent more time finding and acquiring Tacet's titles than listening to them so far, but it looks like I've got some work to do!

    Thanks again, and no, I won't let you hijack the thread (ha ha )! Seriously, I hope other folks on the forum can find opportunities to contribute to the discussion.
    Josh
    Last Surround Sound Album Played (20130301):
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    Music: 9/10; Fidelity: 9/10; "Discrete" Mixes: NA; "Ambient" Mixes: 7/10

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfram View Post
    One thing I'm really curious about, is if any of you have ever heard their Moving Surround Sound and what you think of it?
    My copy of the Peter and the Wolf DVD-A is on its way and I haven't ordered the Four Seasons DVD-A yet (US dollar exchange rates have become less favorable recently). I have several (if not all) of the other Moving Real Surround Sound titles having just received them but have not yet gotten to spin the discs (been a little swamped with other responsibilities lately). My exposure to Tacet has been exclusively Real Surround Sound so far, but I am looking forward to hearing the MRSS approach soon. My wife is especially excited about the prospects of Markus Schirmer's Pictures & Reflections DVD-A and we'll probably start there since she loves the piano so much.

    Stay tuned...
    Josh
    Last Surround Sound Album Played (20130301):
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    Grieg: Op. 51, Old Norwegian Romance with Variations
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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfram View Post
    The only other label I know of is AIX. But I have not yet heard any of their recordings, though they're supposed to be outstanding sound wise. And they offer different mixes. One with ambience, one with real discrete instrument placement like Tacet. And video as well.

    I really have to try some of their stuff too, one of these days. It's just a bit more complicated to order them from Germany. If you should get there first, let me know what you think.
    Thanks for the info. It's looks like there are a lot of AIX DVD Audios on Amazon. I thought I was going to be able to save some money this summer!

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCaniac View Post


    You've made my week Wolfram!
    So please don't read my post about the upcoming Genesis Live releases. I don't want to unmake your week...


    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCaniac View Post
    My copy of the Peter and the Wolf DVD-A is on its way and I haven't ordered the Four Seasons DVD-A yet (US dollar exchange rates have become less favorable recently). I have several (if not all) of the other Moving Real Surround Sound titles having just received them but have not yet gotten to spin the discs (been a little swamped with other responsibilities lately). My exposure to Tacet has been exclusively Real Surround Sound so far, but I am looking forward to hearing the MRSS approach soon. My wife is especially excited about the prospects of Markus Schirmer's Pictures & Reflections DVD-A and we'll probably start there since she loves the piano so much.
    What's really cool about the Peter/Carnival dvd-a is, that you not only have a German and English Narrator, but a music-only version as well. It's the one I listen to, because I don't really need the story. It might be different if you have kids.

    I'm curious how you like Pictures & Reflections. I've only heard two pieces of this on the sampler dvd and they sounded beautiful in Real Surround and it's on my wish list. But the Moving Surround version of Baba Yaga's hut "dancing" all over the place is truly for the friends of agressive mixes (actually, I allways have to think of Yoshimi Battles the P. R. part 2). But enough of the spoiling.

    And I know your problem of not finding the time to listen to all these discs very well. I just tried to listen to the first 3 parts of the Beethoven string quartets once again. But the first is over 150 min. alone (for one mix, R.S. and M.S. together are 312 min). What were they thinking?

    Quote Originally Posted by wanners View Post
    Thanks for the info. It's looks like there are a lot of AIX DVD Audios on Amazon. I thought I was going to be able to save some money this summer!
    Don't tell me. I just bought an apartement and will have to save some money the next 30 summers.

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Hello!

    I am a new member. The fact that this thread was linked from the TACET site made me found this community and this thread in particular!.

    First I will say that I have the utmost respect for Kal Rubinson. I own an oppo 980H and an Integra DTC 9.8, guess where I heard about them. I also buy a lot of music based on his recommendations, including the great Berlioz Requiem by Norrington, one of my favorite recording of all time.

    But as for TACET, I have to respectfully disagree with Kal. TACET if my favorite label, it is IMHO the summum of surround sound recording of classical music. There is so much beauty and fascination there. For me just their recordings completely justifies investing in a fancy multi-channel system.

    I think TACET recordings have 2 qualities that I have rarely heard elsewhere:

    1-Each instrument has a projection pattern (I think you probably understand what I mean, but English is not my mother tongue, there maybe a better word for this). So for example a Trumpet as a direct projection (the sound is focused and straight) the French Horn as a wide dispersion the sound can bounce of the walls of the concert hall everywhere. A good composer will use each instrument to good effect. Well the TACET recordings captures this very close to the real world. For example if a viola and a violin plays the same note, on their recordings it is obvious which is which. I love horns on their recordings (and trumpet too of course!)

    2-Tonmeister Andreas Spreer likes to spread the music lines around and use all the speakers. But he does this with and understanding of the music and what to put where. You do not loose the gesalt of the ensemble, the chords the dynamics the fact that the music blends together. But you can also follow individual strands if you so choose, the trumpet does not mask the oboe. This is particularly good for the inner voices like violas in the orchestra or altos in a choir. Following these recordings with the music scores is a blast. I am an ex-clarinet player and feeling the musicians around gives me the impression that I am with them. You never were interested to hear how the musician playing on the scene feels, instead of being 50 feet away?

    I feel classical music recording is extremely conservative and frozen, and TACET is a breath of fresh air!

    I have a little web site with some reviews of my favorite multichannel recordings at:

    http://www.geocities.com/jmserre/

    Be patient there is not much bandwidth, if it blocks just check a few hours later.

    Thanks for your time

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by jmserre View Post
    Hello!

    I am a new member. The fact that this thread was linked from the TACET site made me found this community and this thread in particular!.

    First I will say that I have the utmost respect for Kal Rubinson. I own an oppo 980H and an Integra DTC 9.8, guess where I heard about them. I also buy a lot of music based on his recommendations, including the great Berlioz Requiem by Norrington, one of my favorite recording of all time.

    But as for TACET, I have to respectfully disagree with Kal.
    OK. We agree to disagree.

    Kal
    Kal Rubinson
    "Music in the Round"
    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by jmserre View Post
    Hello!

    I feel classical music recording is extremely conservative and frozen, and TACET is a breath of fresh air!
    I could not agree with you more. If MRSS is too much for someone, there is always the RSS. I just heard one of the TACET demo discs and the way they present classical music should be the standard.

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by wanners View Post
    I could not agree with you more. If MRSS is too much for someone, there is always the RSS. I just heard one of the TACET demo discs and the way they present classical music should be the standard.
    Whoa! Just because you like it does not mean that it should be the standard. Shouldn't the composer's intention or the performer's intention override our fickle preferences?

    Remember, all traditional composers have had the option of surrounding the audience with performers at live performances but only a very few have done this. In those instances, it was done for specific artistic reasons and I, for one, want to hear what the artist intended, whether up front or all around.

    Now, I would have no objection to having alternative mixes on a recording (as does AIX and some others) but............................

    Kal
    Kal Rubinson
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    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Whoa! Just because you like it does not mean that it should be the standard. Shouldn't the composer's intention or the performer's intention override our fickle preferences?

    Remember, all traditional composers have had the option of surrounding the audience with performers at live performances but only a very few have done this. In those instances, it was done for specific artistic reasons and I, for one, want to hear what the artist intended, whether up front or all around.

    Now, I would have no objection to having alternative mixes on a recording (as does AIX and some others) but............................

    Kal
    This is where personally I think DVD-A and Blu-ray have and advantage (over SACD) with more space available on disk. I think we could settle for one record with at least two mixes, one standard (with all the instruments in front, and the surround for ambiance) one where instruments are distributed all around (tastefully of course).

    I know there is no point arguing taste but I feel I hear more on their recordings, the same way you hear more details on a better sound system. Thanks for your time.

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    Member wolfram's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Whoa! Just because you like it does not mean that it should be the standard. Shouldn't the composer's intention or the performer's intention override our fickle preferences?
    Well, I don't think there is any danger of the Tacet approach becoming the standard in classical MC music. I feel the same as wanners, that only means that I enjoy the Real Surround Sound more. No harm done. The majority of labels and listerners will stick to the ambience mix. It's really not something we should argue about.

    And as for the composer's intention, I find it highly speculative to say what Bach or Beethoven might have prefered. You can surround only very few people with a string quartet, so it surely is not an option for a live situation. I would not be suprised to find the composers to be appalled by the idea of their music being transfered to some dead material (vinyl, plastic, tape) to be heard by single persons in their living room with varying acoustical qualities. And above all the possibility to change the volume at will.

    But maybe they would have loved what Tacet is doing to their music. There is really no way of telling.

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Salut Jean-Marc, welcome to the forum. It's great to have real expert on Tacet on this thread.

    I've visited your site and was amazed by your detailed analyses of those Tacet productions. And I'm especially surprised by someone who knows so much about classical music and even plays an instrument himself, to be so in favour of the Moving Surround Sound. I might print out your notes and give the Beethoven string quartets another listen based on your remarks. Maybe I will warm to the MSS after all. And I will soon order the Pictures disc, for I always had a soft spot for the original piano version.

    I agree with you on the Carnival. The MSS works very well on this one.

    And I love the Beethoven Septet/Oktet and the Schubert Oktet as well. They are among my favorites.
    Last edited by wolfram; 06-09-2009 at 07:49 PM.

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Whoa! Just because you like it does not mean that it should be the standard. Shouldn't the composer's intention or the performer's intention override our fickle preferences?
    Kal
    No. Who says stereo was any performer or composers intention for it to be heard? There are many different aspects involved in bringing the package to listener, they can't all be determined by one person, even the creator of the music. In my mind, pumping multiple instruments into one or two channels could not ever come close to how an orchestra sounds.

    By the way, I'm not really going to even consider the ambient approach as real surround since dolby accomplishes the same thing.

    One thing you should know is I'm one of the very few who puts the back speakers equidistant to my ears, not behind me. So all the sound is still more or less in front of me. In multichannel, more instruments get to have their own channel and thus their own space. this to me is closer to how it was meant to be heard in general, despite what some performer or compose might think it's supposed to be.

    But I agree no one can win this type of discussion, and I'm not trying to convert anyone.

    BTW are you saying that surround sound should not be the standard or that TACET's surround sound method should not be the standard? If you're saying multichannel should not be the standard, I don't agree with that in general.

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfram View Post
    Well, I don't think there is any danger of the Tacet approach becoming the standard in classical MC music. I feel the same as wanners, that only means that I enjoy the Real Surround Sound more. No harm done. The majority of labels and listerners will stick to the ambience mix. It's really not something we should argue about.

    And as for the composer's intention, I find it highly speculative to say what Bach or Beethoven might have prefered. You can surround only very few people with a string quartet, so it surely is not an option for a live situation. I would not be suprised to find the composers to be appalled by the idea of their music being transfered to some dead material (vinyl, plastic, tape) to be heard by single persons in their living room with varying acoustical qualities. And above all the possibility to change the volume at will.

    But maybe they would have loved what Tacet is doing to their music. There is really no way of telling.
    Well, my point is that composers, even before Beethoven and Bach used antiphonal and "surround" effects for certain pieces, so the awareness of that possibility is long-standing. There's no way to know how any artists of the past would react to the options available today but we do know what they did with the options that were available to them.

    Kal
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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by wanners View Post
    No. Who says stereo was any performer or composers intention for it to be heard? There are many different aspects involved in bringing the package to listener, they can't all be determined by one person, even the creator of the music. In my mind, pumping multiple instruments into one or two channels could not ever come close to how an orchestra sounds.
    That's a red herring. We are not counting channels here. What we are discussing is the placement of voices/instruments and, in particular, our preferences and those of the creators of the music.

    By the way, I'm not really going to even consider the ambient approach as real surround since dolby accomplishes the same thing.
    Thanks for relegating those of us who prefer the relatively accurate reproduction of a traditional event to such mediocrity.

    One thing you should know is I'm one of the very few who puts the back speakers equidistant to my ears, not behind me. So all the sound is still more or less in front of me.
    I have one system like that.

    In multichannel, more instruments get to have their own channel and thus their own space. this to me is closer to how it was meant to be heard in general, despite what some performer or compose might think it's supposed to be.
    Meant to be heard? By what authority? I do not think that statement is in any way supportable except as a highly personal preference (to which, of course, you are entitled).

    But I agree no one can win this type of discussion, and I'm not trying to convert anyone.
    Fully agreed. The issue is one of personal preference.

    BTW are you saying that surround sound should not be the standard or that TACET's surround sound method should not be the standard? If you're saying multichannel should not be the standard, I don't agree with that in general.
    I believe that MCH should be the standard and that, in general, the intentions of the artists should be of primary concern. Anything beyond that is "added value" and subjective.

    Kal
    Kal Rubinson
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    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Well, my point is that composers, even before Beethoven and Bach used antiphonal and "surround" effects for certain pieces, so the awareness of that possibility is long-standing. There's no way to know how any artists of the past would react to the options available today but we do know what they did with the options that were available to them.

    Kal
    To be honest, I never heard of classical composers experimenting with surrounding ensembles. Fascinating! I will have to look into that.

    And to be even more honest, I can live with the possibility of Beethoven rejecting these mixes (or recordings in general), I still like them. Nobody asked John Lennon's opinion, still many here love Love.

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    That's a red herring. We are not counting channels here. What we are discussing is the placement of voices/instruments and, in particular, our preferences and those of the creators of the music.
    Fair enough

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Thanks for relegating those of us who prefer the relatively accurate reproduction of a traditional event to such mediocrity.
    I disagree that ambient is necessarily more accurate, but I'll defer to someone with more knowledge. Also, you took it negatively, I'm just saying that ambient is like stereo on vitamins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Meant to be heard? By what authority? I do not think that statement is in any way supportable except as a highly personal preference (to which, of course, you are entitled).
    I think what I really meant here is that I think real surround sound is more accurate, even if the placement is not exactly like a performance. If there are two violin players, then it makes more sense to me that if each has it's own channel, this is a more accurate depiction of reality; where they are placed is what causes the "issue".

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    I believe that MCH should be the standard and that, in general, the intentions of the artists should be of primary concern. Anything beyond that is "added value" and subjective.
    Not sure I agree that the intention of the artist has to be the primary concern for home listening. I've seen a lot of threads that have discussions like this one, and while there is never a resolution, I do think that it comes down to what the listener wants and should not be tied to some idea of what the music sounds like in performance or what the artist thinks it should sound like in my house.

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Well, we seem to be disagreeing on some words. When I said "accurate" I was using it in the same way as one would use "high fidelity:" The reproduction of a real-world event as similar to that original event as possible. You, I think, are using it to mean that you can hear greater detail of individual instruments better, something I would not dispute, but I would call that an analytical dissection of the music rather than an accurate reproduction.

    Even the word "real" is being used differently, it seems. Real surround, to me, is discrete multichannel. What is carried on those channels is what we are discussing. But, in that context, I still maintain that it must relate to an original reference event. What you are referring to is something I would call an "immersive" or "surround-y" mix and would not label as either accurate or real.

    BTW, you stated that "I'm just saying that ambient is like stereo on vitamins." For me, ambient MCH is stereo done properly.

    I must say that I do enjoy many of the TaceT recordings but I am more titillated by the effects and find them distracting when I want to concentrate on the music.

    Finally, let me suggest a few pieces written for a surround effect (and I put aside all those off-stage instruments used by Mozart, Beethoven, Verdi, Mahler, etc.).
    Vivaldi: Concertos for Double Orchestra http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/50
    Berlioz: Requiem http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/3728
    Magnar Am: http://www.2l.musiconline.no/shop/di...d.asp?id=35549
    Various new names: http://www.starkland.com/st2010/index.htm

    Kal
    Kal Rubinson
    "Music in the Round"
    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    I still maintain that it must relate to an original reference event.
    This seems to be the issue. Not sure why you feel this way, it becomes a limitation on the possiblities, and is not necessary.

    I agree with your use of terminology; and thanks for the suggestions, I will check them out

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by wanners View Post
    This seems to be the issue. Not sure why you feel this way, it becomes a limitation on the possiblities, and is not necessary.
    Well, let's say that I find the options that you champion to be a distortion of the work of art and not necessary.

    I think that defines our positions.

    Kal
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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfram View Post
    Salut Jean-Marc, welcome to the forum. It's great to have real expert on Tacet on this thread.

    I've visited your site and was amazed by your detailed analyses of those Tacet productions. And I'm especially surprised by someone who knows so much about classical music and even plays an instrument himself, to be so in favour of the Moving Surround Sound. I might print out your notes and give the Beethoven string quartets another listen based on your remarks. Maybe I will warm to the MSS after all. And I will soon order the Pictures disc, for I always had a soft spot for the original piano version.

    I agree with you on the Carnival. The MSS works very well on this one.

    And I love the Beethoven Septet/Oktet and the Schubert Oktet as well. They are among my favorites.
    Bonjour Wolfram!

    Thanks for the compliment. I enjoyed reading the last few post and will try to clarify my position. One concert season I played Peter and the Wolf about 16 times in various halls. (Of course I was the cat :-). Now the hall affects the listeners but it also affect the players. So in some halls it may have sounded great for the audience but it was terrible for us we had trouble hearing each others. But on the best places from a performer point of view it was like being in a TACET recordings, we had a kind of hyper clarity of hearing each others individually but also collectively at the same time.

    I would also to like to comment that Mr Spreer sometimes like to provoke, and probably he goes too far but I like is somebody taking risks. For the Beethoven symphony I understand he wanted to show off the winds that are often neglected but it is a bit extreme to put them at the front. I would have put the strings in front and the winds behind.

    Great to read so many good comments.

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by jmserre View Post
    I would also to like to comment that Mr Spreer sometimes like to provoke, and probably he goes too far but I like is somebody taking risks.
    Agreed and I have been fascinated by some of his moves. The scherzo of the Schubert Octet where the lead sweeps around the room and opening of the Bach Motets which surprises by placing the listener in the choir, facing the audience, are memorable.

    Kal
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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Agreed and I have been fascinated by some of his moves. The scherzo of the Schubert Octet where the lead sweeps around the room and opening of the Bach Motets which surprises by placing the listener in the choir, facing the audience, are memorable.

    Kal
    I do not know if you had time to listen to the Bouzignac with the same excellent choir than the Bach motets. In track 18th there is a double circle around the listener. The first one is the soloists closer to the listening position then there is a second larger circle for the choir. Also memorable IMHO.

    I once send Mr Spreer an e-mail asking if he actually moves the musician around, I mean positioning them as per what we hear (I do not mean moving while playing!) He was evasive in his answer (probably a trade secret).

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    Default Re: The Tacet Thread (Reviews/Latest News & Releases/General Discussion)

    Just want to give my quick hat off to the work of Andreas Spreer.
    However I donít think that is "politically correct" to fly banner "Real Surround" compeering to work done by many over labels delivering surround music experience his approach of showcasing Discrete Surround Sound Reproduction is sonically Effective and Masterful.
    Last edited by alexander J; 06-10-2009 at 01:13 PM.

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