HiRez Poll King Crimson - Red [DVD-Audio/Blu-Ray Audio]

Red arrived today and through the mixed fortune of getting man-flu and leaving the office at lunchtime and as a result having the time to sit down quietly in the living room and spin Red within a few hours of it skidding through the hall from the ballistic launcher that the postman must have concealed about his person!

Anyway I have to agree with theCharm, this is a fantastic piece of work.I started on the DVD LPCM stereo, then the MLP Lossless Stereo, which is a signinifcant step, and then the MLP Surround. Despite the technical theoretical difference between 96 and 48 bit sampling the surround field just draws you in with a richness and warmth that defines DVD Audio.

Congratulations to Neil Wilkes for the DVD Audio mastering and authoring, and Claire for the DVD design and layout. This is a splendid release. I had already ordered the Court boxset and Lizard and the quality of Red completely justifies my optimism. I have been a King Crimson fan since Starless and Bible Black was released ('71/'72?) and these releases are going to be something else.

Finally, thanks must go to Robert Fripp and Steve Wilson for having the vision and very probably the patience of two saints to bring these masterpieces to fruition. Brilliant.

Starless And Bible Black was released in 1974 and that's where I came in as well. Saw them at The Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles on June 19th, 1974 and it changed my life. Traded my Panasonic quad system for my first bass amp...

These releases are a dream come true.

Oops, "KHz" here, too. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

I thought that this was the poll thread - 23 entries and one vote so far - there are at least 3 other KC threads besides this one - perhaps it would make sense to use one of those for general tech comments and leave this for those that have actually heard the Red DVD-A and wish to share their opinion and comments.

Can't wait for the mailman to deliver mine :sun

Whooo...

Australia Post delivered my copy of 'Red' (in Sydney) by registered mail and courier early today (7th Oct) from Burning Shed. Had to sign. The postal driver had troubling manoeuvring his Toyota Hi Ace out of the driveway and ended up in all sorts of trouble but I digress...

It was almost as exciting as picking up 'Islands' from a do it yourself importer at a service station in Lane Cove in early 1972.

This has long been one of my all time bands. The first four albums were my favourites but I came to love this album after Red and Starless appeared on 'A Young Persons Guide to King Crimson' in 1976. 'Lizard' and 'Islands' have long been the most regularly played as they tended to upset parents, siblings, girlfriends, wife and children less than the others and are still brimming with originality. I came to appreciate this (72-74) version of King Crimson more after 'The NightWatch' was released in the late nineties.

The packaging is excellent and worthy of the art that this album is. The content seems ageless and this version of King Crimson has not dated like many other pieces from the same period. The love and respect with which this 40th anniversary edition of 'Red' has been produced is a wonder. It is a privilege to receive it. Its an even greater privilege to receive it while I can still hear....

Played the DVD-A Surround Version on my outside sound system very loud just as a southerly came up. The sound is incredible. There is much going on but it is crystal clear. My main comment is that the muddiness of the original recording appears to be gone. I particularly enjoyed the clarity and depth of John Wetton's voice on 'Fallen Angel and 'Starless'. The mix on 'Providence' was such I almost feel I haven't heard it before. It rained a little towards the end of 'Starless' but it didn't subtract from the exquisite mix.

The surround extras are excellent. The video is compelling if only to see how young the band were and how such a small group of players could make all that intricate noise with so few instruments. Now if someone had video of this quality of 'USA'.

This is a reference DVD-A and is going to be high on the rotation list over the summer. I might even have to buy one of those new Universal Oppo BluRay players and a new amp just to maximise the experience. The neighbours are going to have to move. Can you wear these things out? I had better order another one (or three)....

Congratulations to everyone involved in the production of this disc including some of the members of this forum. You should be proud. This is how to do it right.

In the meantime even more avidly waiting for ITCOTCK and Lizard...

Had mine a couple of days now and thought I'd have a thorough listen before posting my comments.

For me this is a very solid 8, as I prefer some of KC's other albums, particularly ITCOTCK, but the mix and sound quality reallty are amazing giving the previous releases.

Highlight for me is the surround version of 'Journey to the Centre of the Cosmos' on the DVD extras - it absolutely smokes.

Really can't wait for the ITCOTCK disc now.

R E Faust

I was waiting to be floored ..but somehow I wasn't...ahh expectations...

I'll review the MLP 5.1

Menu kudos;
-The animated VU meter, it rocks!

Menu peeves:
-even though it's only the first measures of "Red" playing in the Menu, it totally takes away the impact of the first "in your face" 5.1 mix, having heard it right before as a teaser.
-it takes too long to go where you chose to navigate after hitting the button.

I know I ain't no Steve Wilson or Elliot Schneier but here's my take:
Everything sounds perfect and flat (!)
-this was originally a no -frills , just the levels, ma'am kinda production, and so it still is.
I think it's a great job of representing the original work, but maybe I'd have sweetened the highs a little tiny bit.
Even turning up the treble , it somehow don't go there for me-same with the bass.

Very active mix- love the surround pan in the beggining of "Fallen Angel" and the drums placement: All around!

A 9 from me. Still "A" , but not "A plus"

OK, finally got my copy (in Dallas) of Red yesterday.

I'm one of those old guys that first heard Crimso listening to "In the Court..." driving around in high school on an 8-track. How could a teenager resist that cover? I always preferred the Wetton/Bruford era lineup so I was excited that Red was scheduled to be the first release in this series. Btw, my first home audio rig was a quad setup so I've always been enamored of MCH. But I digress......

In listening to the 5.1 MLP tracks last night one description kept coming to mind. Every element of each track was distinct and had it's own space. It was as if you were literally in the middle of the studio as they performed around you. Fallen Angel was a song I was very familiar with, but this recording was something new altogether. I always considered Starless as KC's A Day in the Life, and hearing it last night was almost a religious experience.

I know I'm sounding like a typical fan-boy, but this is without a doubt the best realization of multi-channel I've come across. Of course this is only my opinion, but isn't that why we're here. I eagerly await the rest of the KC catalog. Well done to Fripp & Wilson (& Wilkes !

Fantastic! As a life long Crimhead, I realize that my objectivity comes under scrutiny and justifyably so. Nevertheless, an out and out 10! First the package - beautiful and comprehensive - excellent liner notes that will enlighten all. The bonus content is beyond my expectations - especially the video content - the Mono sounds great and the PQ is quite good considering.

The MLP 5.1 content is expertly done - especially "Starless" - a revelation - even for someone that has heard and owns every possible permutation of Red.

Kudos and thanks to Neil et al - truly a gift!

ps - in response to the criticism of the menu lag time - WTF? I've waited 36 years for something like this - a few milliseconds either way makes no difference. There is so much content on this disc that it's a bargain at twice the price.

I received mine yesterday. Three times through and I love it!

I admit I was not familiar with KC material at all except for ITCOTCK, so I was not really sure of what to expect. I have learned to not trust my first impressions, however I was blown away with the sound quality and mix right away. The content is very interesting and becomes familiar quickly. Like I said before, three times through and now its tough to stop listening. That's always a good sign when you want to hear it again and again. In a way I am glad that I have not heard this title before. It's brand new to me and I like it a lot.

My first impression would probably have given this title a 9, but it just keeps growing on me. The quality, the mix, content with videos and extras, and packaging are astonishing, so I just have to give it a 10!

Dennis

Casted is my vote. It's a 9, but hold on just a second before killing me: on my scale, the DSotM SACD gets a mere 7,5. So this is a top notch recovery of 35 year old studio tapes. Packing is beautiful, extras are interesting and liner notes a joy to read. My most sincere congrats to everybody involved in the making of this release.

Sound-wise I have rapidly become very fond of the stereo mixes of "Fallen Angel" and "Starless", two of my all-time favourite songs. The subtle changes in the 5.1 versions of these two are taking some time to digest. On the other hand, all the other three tracks really grow in surround. Most prominently for "One Red Nightmare", IMO it definitely needed this treatment to fully bloom.

My copy arrived yesterday from Burning Shed and I was very happy with the packaging (though I don't really get the whole booklet in the middle of the case and not inserted somewhere so it doesn't flop about). I gave it a thorough listening (in 5.1 MLP Lossless) and was blown away by the mix. Great use of all speakers and nice discreteness. This is my first King Crimson album and I had only heard them once before. I can't say that I loved the music itself, but I'm sure I'll learn to like it with a few more listens. The only complaint I would have (based solely on the mix I listened to) was the vocals on words beginning with "S". To me those specific words still sounded like they had come from a somewhat scratchy lp...maybe it is just my weird hearing. Fortunately I only noticed this a few times (where it really stood out). All in all I give it a solid 9. Superb job and I'm definitely looking forward to ITCOTKK arriving soon. Thanks for recommending I try this one out. Cheers all

kap'n krunch said:

I was waiting to be floored ..but somehow I wasn't...ahh expectations...
I'll review the MLP 5.1
A 9 from me. Still "A" , but not "A plus"

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I agree. I was expecting\hoping to floored by the increase in SQ but imo, it's not there.
I have the CD of Red from a few years back and this is certainly better but not quantum leap better on my system.
With that said, I am fully confident that the team involved captured exactly what was on the tape and that is the real measure for me.
I like the "active" mix and much prefer it to just adding ambiance.
To me surround mixes should not be merely enhanced 2-channel but a whole different perspective.
Even though I prefer the 80's KC lineup, I will buy all of them as I feel supporting surround sound\hi-res projects such as this is my duty and pleasure.
FWIW, a single number is far too limiting in rating these discs.
1. Packaging.......9.5 only because I feel they should make room in the slipcase for the book which is where I put it.
2. Overall SQ......7.5 the recording has a closed-miked sound to me with little to no ambiance of the space where it was recorded.
3. Captured SQ...10 I think this is as good as it gets given the source.
4. Surround Mix...10 strong, powerful, well-balanced and enveloping.

Finally arrived today amd it generated a work-stoppage while I auditioned it! Lovely sound from start to finish and I always LOVE hearing familiar music with all of the space required for the instruments and production. Red gained a little edge certainly but from Fallen Angel on it's dramatic! The instruments sing at full voice instead of being buried and provided new listening thrills. Wetton's voice on Starless appeared even more vulnerable with it's center channel placement. Sweet playback reminded me the album is short by todays standards but just right for it's day.

The bonus audio was very revealing in terms of Red in the trio version; Red is one of my practice jam tunes for a long time and I see now what I was doing wrong. The bass only plays the ascending parts on the outro, it's all laid bare here. Loved the bonus audio and the Cosmos (familar from 1992 Great Deceiver) was a nice teaser to have MORE of the 1972-74 live material mixed in 24 bit 5.1 surround.

Saving the vidoe for Sunday, got an early train trip in the morning so that's all for now.

Long time fan, one of my primary influences and very pleased! Ready for more.

neil wilkes said:

On the grounds that I did not do the stereo mastering, I cannot possibly say.
Personally, it is my experience that whilst CD can be done well, it rarely is.
16-bit audio is just too fragile sounding.
You have 65,536 possible values equivalent to analogue voltage, whereas in 24-bit you have 16,777,216 possible values.

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But that doesn't in itself mean better sound. 24bits value is in having all those bits in reserve (as it were), whereas for 16bits, things get dicey as soon as you a couple of bits of resolution...which can happen if lots of digital production takes place at 16 bits, and can even effectively happen in the playback gear.

Btw, I don't know what they're saying on other forums, but I did notice something odd. And as you didn't do the stereo mastering, you probably don't know the answer, but I'll float the issue anyway: From checking out the waveforms of the title track, it appears very much that the new stereo remaster of Red (on the CD) is simply the previous edition (30th./HDCD) made a tad louder. The waveforms are THAT similar, down to small details. Haven't tried a null test or frequency profile comparison to see if differences are more subtle, but we'll see.... FWIW, the previous version of Red (title track) peaked at -0.89 dBFS, the new one exploits that little bit of headroom by peaking at -0.09 dBFS. I bought these discs almost entirely for the surround and bonus material, so this is not a big deal to me. But it could be off-pissing to some if the only significant difference in the remastered 2-track was normalization to a slightly higher peak level.

Btw I think the surround mix/mastering came out nicely. This is not at all my go-to KC disc -- not only do I think it somewhat badly recorded, I've always thought the tracks themselves overrated in their canon; to me their finest was Starless & Bible Black (which was mostly live) -- and the surround mix doesn't change my mind, but it is well done and brings some needed separation to the occasionally clotted stereo mix. So I gave it a 6.

kap'n krunch said:

So , Neil,
-putting aside the kind of people who can't hear the difference between an mp3 or a cd -

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....which might be yourself, in an ABX test, with a well-made mp3 vs .wav.

what would be a resolution in audio where we wouldn't notice any difference from then on?

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For PCM audio 14 bits is where people generally start to notice a degradation, at normal listening levels. Lots of people have claimed they can routinely hear 16 vs 24bits, but the evidence just hasn't been forthcoming for something that is claimed to be so 'obvious' by some.

As in film, IIRC, the resolution is 2,500+ horizontal lines; then in audio, what would it be?
OK, this gets personal now for the sake of having an example.
Up to what resolution can you not hear a difference?
I can't say I have listened to 192 KHzStratospheric sampling rate,
but I can definitely tell 96/24 from 48/24.
Maybe it goes technical, Is sound so rich over 50K that you may need the 192 KHz resolution or is it overkill? (Love Colin Hay!)

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Well now you're talking about sample rate, which is related more directly to bandwidth than resolution, in PCM world. Again the data are spotty and controversial to support the common 'sighted' impression that adults 'need' more than 44.1 kHz sampling (22 kHz top band), though as with bit depth, actual implementation issues may call for a higher spec, just to have a margin for technical error. The digital authorities I know of, like ADC/DAC designer Dan Lavry, and J Robert Stuart of Meridian, say that even the theoretical implementation issue artifacts go away once you reach a sample rate of 60kHz. 88kHz is nearest to that among 'typical' SR values in use; 96 is overkill but also understandable, as it;'s the 2x multiple of the 48kHz common in digital video sound; but 192 is just silly.

Gave it a 9.
It would have been 8.5 really, rounded up due to the nicely-done extras.
Surround-wise not up to DSOTM, hopefully the Crimson Court and Lizard will be more surround-friendly.
The sound is nice and clear, well done.

I have to admit I am new to a lot of King Crimson, and this series is an excuse to educate me on the finer points of Fripp, i have only owned In teh court on CD and long ago had a friend who would play Lizard to clear the house when it was getting late/early on those drunken nights of my youth. I have never owned Red so its all new to me but if the rest are as good as this then i have no worries buying the rest and boring the world demonstraiting how good this album is.

For me this has to be a 10 content, and mix alone make it that. The fact that the 5.1 mix is descete and honest and stand replay at both quiet and really loud volumes is great means it gets the fidelity tick as well.
For me 'Starless' is a standout and I do like 'Providence' as well interesting.

Looking forward to the rest though i could not afford both versions of In the Court so ill have to wait for the big box which looks like delivery early november.

ssully said:

Btw, I don't know what they're saying on other forums, but I did notice something odd. And as you didn't do the stereo mastering, you probably don't know the answer, but I'll float the issue anyway: From checking out the waveforms of the title track, it appears very much that the new stereo remaster of Red (on the CD) is simply the previous edition (30th./HDCD) made a tad louder. The waveforms are THAT similar, down to small details. Haven't tried a null test or frequency profile comparison to see if differences are more subtle, but we'll see.... FWIW, the previous version of Red (title track) peaked at -0.89 dBFS, the new one exploits that little bit of headroom by peaking at -0.09 dBFS. I bought these discs almost entirely for the surround and bonus material, so this is not a big deal to me. But it could be off-pissing to some if the only significant difference in the remastered 2-track was normalization to a slightly higher peak level.

Btw I think the surround mix/mastering came out nicely. This is not at all my go-to KC disc -- not only do I think it somewhat badly recorded, I've always thought the tracks themselves overrated in their canon; to me their finest was Starless & Bible Black (which was mostly live) -- and the surround mix doesn't change my mind, but it is well done and brings some needed separation to the occasionally clotted stereo mix. So I gave it a 6.

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The Stereo version on offer here is the Original mix, 30th anniversary remaster - this is stated somewhere on the disc. It's been de-archived at SAM by Simon Heyworth and retransferred to 24/96.
No sonic changes at all, AFAIK.

neil wilkes said:

The Stereo version on offer here is the Original mix, 30th anniversary remaster - this is stated somewhere on the disc. It's been de-archived at SAM by Simon Heyworth and retransferred to 24/96.
No sonic changes at all, AFAIK.

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Thanks, that explains it then. (There has been a slight renormalization of peaks, though, as I mentioned)