Please welcome Bob Vosgien to QQ, the mastering engineer of the CTA Quad DTS Disc!!

[Q-Eight]

Not that I'm anybody to say anything, but I would say stay the course with the current format. Let's not muck about with Blu-Ray. I'm not even a Chicago fan per se, but I bought this and love it. Great sound. Plays in my car perfectly. However, I would say if the format were to change to Blu-Ray, you'd lose a customer. I'm NOT going to upgrade my car to a Blu-Ray player anytime soon, nor will I upgrade my home sound system anytime soon. Not because I resist the format, but because I simply could not afford it.
Stay the course, almost everybody can play the discs the way it stands. I'll get off my soapbox now.

Secondly, I'm also curious about "Close to the Edge". From all the info I've found it was abandoned due to missing multitracks for some songs.

Lastly, how has the Chicago title been selling?? My thoughts on this would be to make the first few releases popular albums that you know would sell. How about the first Eagles album? Desperado? Out on the Border? One of these Nights? Sweet Baby James would also be a great choice. Aren't the Guess Who also currently under the Sony/BMG umbrella? How about Elvis??? I'm bursting with excitement over this!

All in all, I'm very impressed with this. I've been telling everybody I can to try and open up and embrace multichannel. I had a crowd around my car today at work at breaktime to show off Quadio

[winopener]

Aren't the Guess Who also currently under the Sony/BMG umbrella? How about Elvis??? I'm bursting with excitement over this!

Sony/BMG is NOT part of the Warner group... and yes, Eagles "Desperado" would be a wonderful second release if there is a quad mix buried somewhere.

[Q-Eight]

D'oh! My bad. W-M-G..... not BMG. My mistake.

[sukothai]

A very warm welcome Bob - this is fantastic news. If I could, I would pre-order two of each right now.

Since DVD-A is no longer an option, I vote Blu-ray for a couple reasons:

1) I assume Blu-ray is now an easy sell to the "Management."
2) Blu-ray delivers a lossless transfer for the ages.

However, your DTS 96/24 CTA disc is certainly a fine example of what can be done and I would accept this as well.

Thanks for helping to keep the hope alive!

[Quadrockasaurus]

Welcome to QQ Bob.....Wow.....High Res Blu-ray Quadraphonic...fingers crossed...sounds fantastic..!!!...

[Chris Gerhard]

I'm surprised they wouldn't do a DVD-Audio disc, which always included a compatible DTS or Dolby Digital component also - so it would still be compatible with the "general public". Regardless I love the CTA surround disc and hope for more, although the Captain and Me was already released on DVD-A, so why do that title again. Pick titles which haven't been re-issued a million times on different formats.

I would love Blu-Ray, but if Bob (and welcome by the way), says they want to be "more compatible with the general public"... how would Blu-Ray fit in? Wouldn't a DVD-Audio disc (with a DTS and Dolby Digital track) be more compatible with the general public than a Blu-Ray disc. Again, I have multiple Blu-Ray players - so they can give me these discs in any format they want and I will buy them - although I would prefer a hi-rez in lossless format the best.

I am not so sure the sales would be different if this were Blu-Ray (probably less sales) than a DVD-V. I still don't understand why, even though Warner's considers DVD-Audio a dead format to them, they can't make exceptions (change their marketing and business approach) and bring it back for these Quad releases?

Blu-ray has a serious flaw at present time: car playback.

I think this disc is a great start, but it's a bit of a stab in the back to the folks that supported Warners DVD-A product of the past 10 years. Why would it have hurt to have a DVD-A section on the CTA disc? It still would have played in the same players it can play in now.

+1. Even still, great news for the future of quad and surround.

Car surround is a tiny niche within a tiny niche, even consumers part of that tiny niche should be able to understand that. When there is a market for Blu-ray automobile surround systems, that product will be available. DVD-A has been a market failure, no question, even the biggest fans of that format should be able to understand that. I think all market segments, even small ones like automobile surround can be addressed with Blu-ray eventually which is already huge compared to any better than CD and better than DVD format ever, bigger than all of them combined in terms of market by a huge margin. Of course bigger than SACD, DVD-A, DAD, HDAD, HD DVD and whatever else there was combined by a huge margin isn't very big, I understand that but it's a start. I thought about trying to determine what percentage of music sold is DVD-A but decided that surely isn't necessary. If DVD-A ever amounted to 1% of the music market in any given year after 10 years on the market, I would be surprised. If the average DVD-A release sold a quantity of 5,000 before hitting the cutout bin, I would be surprised.

For the last few years, we have seen a tiny dribble of surround releases, an SACD here, a DVD-A there, an occasional DVD-V, or even a Blu-ray release at times. When looking at home audio video, I think markets react far better to a single format for any given product type. Just look at DVD and CD for evidence of that, sales were huge during their heydays with an entire industry's support. As a surround music fan, I believe we will be better off with a single format for all surround music releases supported by all music companies with all consumer hardware manufacturers offering players. For starters, Blu-ray can have lossless 192kHz/24-Bit 5.1 audio simultaneously with 1080p HD video, I believe even 3D video. That same disc can have 192kHz/24-Bit LPCM stereo. That should be enough for all of us to say, let's make the one format for the future be the best format, Blu-ray. If that isn't reason enough, just look at the current situation with consumer electronics manufacturers and software providers. Sony never made a DVD-A player and Panasonic never made an SACD player, the two largest consumer electronics manufacturers in the world. Sony never released a DVD-A and Warner never released an SACD in the US, two the biggest music companies in the world. All of these companies are among the biggest supporters of Blu-ray. None of those companies are going to switch allegiances in the old SACD v. DVD-A format war, in fact none of them are doing much to support the side they chose during that period. I think all realize how foolish that would be.

I can't even think of a current manufacturer of quality DVD players without Blu-ray playback. If there are some esoteric brands, way out of the mainstream, that is probably the only quality straight DVD player without Blu-ray being offered now. I sure know I haven't seen one from Sony, or Panasonic, or Oppo, or Pioneer or any other in over a year. Apparently even Toshiba only makes sub $100 disposable DVD players without Blu-ray now. For the week ended April 4, 2010, the USA videodisc sales split according to Nielsen was DVD 88%, Blu-ray 12%. Blu-ray sales were up 97.3% compared to the same week in 2009. The previous week ending March 28, it was DVD 84% and Blu-ray 16%, again Blu-ray was up about 100% from the same period in 2009.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/

Blu-ray is growing and is already an important part of helping to offset the gradual DVD decline. At the current rates, Blu-ray and DVD should split that market 50/50 in a couple of years. I don't see any reason that Blu-ray can't help offset the music sales decline as a result of CD declining. I don't know what percentage of the audio market cares about better audio quality, but I do know it isn't zero and I believe it should be big enough to matter to the music companies. MP3 and AAC downloads may become bigger than CD in the future, I don't know but I sure hope not. I know there are some attempts to offer high quality downloads, including high quality surround downloads but it isn't amounting to anything yet but let that market develop as it may. The Blu-ray market is much larger than the video download market and I sure prefer Blu-ray to anything I can envision for audio as well.

If Warner decides that DVD-V, not Blu-ray is the best choice for these Rhino Handmade surround releases, you won't see me whine about that decision, it will be a business decision and I just accept such things. I do hope the choice is Blu-ray of course. I also hope that the classical niche moves to Blu-ray away from SACD. I also hope Universal Music Group shows up for a Blu-ray surround music push as does Sony BMG. If I am going to dream, let's include Concord Music Group, EMI, AIX, and any other music company large and small when the push begins.

I am listening to a 2L Blu-ray release now in stereo with headphones so I don't wake up the head of the household or the two puppies. It is "Ole Bull Violin Concertos" by a Norwegian Orchestra I don't recall, the disc includes 192kHz/24-Bit 5.1 DTS-HD MA, 96kHz/24-Bit 7.1 DTS-HD MA, and 192kHz/24-Bit 2.0 LPCM. For some odd reason, it also includes an SACD in the package, I doubt if I ever remove it unless I just want to compare DSD to PCM but I have done that before and I just don't care about the differences if any I might detect or preference if any I might observe. At 58, I probably couldn't tell diddly, especially with my modest equipment, in any event.

My vote for the next Rhino Handmade surround release would be "Aqualung", lossless 5.1 and 192kHz/24-Bit 2.0 for that market. If there is a long list of possible titles, I would probably choose a different title but of the few mentioned so far, that gets my vote and I would be delighted with it but don't have a clue how well it would sell. I sure hope this forum doesn't drive Mr. Vosgien away with whining about no DVD-A or no whatever and just gets behind whatever business decision Warner makes. I was disappointed CTA wasn't a Blu-ray but not disappointed Warner once again offered a high quality surround music release.

My prognostication abilities are on an upswing. I picked the correct winner in the NCAA basketball tournament again this year, two years in a row although my bracket picks overall were much worse this year than last year. I had Duke beating Kansas in the final, not Butler. I did win the High Def Digest Forum bracket challenge though, a couple of Blu-ray discs is the prize. So if Warner is concerned about my ability to correctly pick future events, there is some evidence my crystal ball is in focus and properly working.

Chris

[kap'n krunch]

Welcome Bob;

It's always a pleasure to have somebody in our forum that is active within the record industry, especially such a small niche as music surround releases.

I do not have a thing to say regarding what the next format would be cause I believe that you really do not dictate these decisions, which come from above;
I guess you can pressure them as best as you can for a specific format, but in the end , the labels have the upper hand , as always.

Please keep us up to date, within company policy, about the next releases.

Cheers,
Alberto

[Perpendicular]

Welcome Bob!

Does anyone know what year record labels stopped producing Quads?

If possible, I'd love to see the Doobie Brothers, "Toulouse Street", "What Were Once Vices Are Now Habits" &" Stampede" released as quads. Imagine two drummers in one of each two channels??

[Q-Eight]

If possible, I'd love to see the Doobie Brothers, "Toulouse Street", "What Were Once Vices Are Now Habits" &" Stampede" released as quads. Imagine two drummers in one of each two channels??

Those are part of the Warner Catalog and have been previously issued as CD-4 LP's and Q8 tapes. We can hope they become some of the next batch put out by Rhino.

[JonUrban]

Does anyone know what year record labels stopped producing Quads?

Sure!

Last A&M Quad: 1975 (Mangione/Bellavia)
Last ABC Quad: 1975 (Rufus/Rufusized)
Last Atlantic Quad: 1975 (Spinners/Pick of the Litter)
Last Asylum Quad: 1976 (Mitchell/Hissing of Summer Lawns)
Last Arista Quad: 1976 (Manilow/This One's For You)
Last Columbia Double-Inventory Quad: 1977 (Return to Forever/Musicmagic)
Last Columbia Single-Inventory Quad: 1977 (Wagner/Love Feast of the Apostles)
Last RCA Quad: 1978 (Tomita/Kosmos)
Last RCA US Quad (Imported from Japan): 1979 (Tomita/Bolero)
Last Reprise Quad: 1975 (Sinatra/Main Event)
Last Warner Brothers Quad: 1975 (Graham Central Station/Ain't No Doubt About It)

[Perpendicular]

Sure!

Last Arista Quad: 1976 (Manilow/This One's For You)

Ahhhh, nothing like a good Manilow in Quad!

Thanks a bunch for the fast (or at any speed) reply!!

[bmoura]

Yikes....do we need another Captain and Me??
So many surround mixes unreleased, why double dip?
Still great that Rhino is releasing these mixes

I suppose they could release the '70s Quad mix this time - vs. the new one that was on the DVD Audio disc. But I would put some of the other Doobie Brothers titles ahead of The Captain and Me since they too were available in the '70s in Quad and haven't appeared since.

[zabble]

Close to the Edge gets my vote! This is he only title Bob mentioned that was never previously released in quad. Most of us here heard it had been mixed in quad back in the day but never got released. Now it seems the rumour is true! The other titles would be OK to release eventually, but they're definitely less intriguing (many of us already own the original quad versions in multiple formats).

[Edelweiss]

Well, just to add my 2 cents, Close to the Edge would be a dream come true !

This album is a total wonder in the musical world, and hearing it in quad would be fantastic !

[timbre4]

Yes - Close To The Edge would clearly be the most intriguing release of those mentioned by Bob V. if the rumored quad mix was available. The missing multitracks hampered the 5.1 DVD-A release we were waiting for breathlessly.

I propose something special if the tapes are available. Emerson, Lake & Palmer - Welcome Back My Friends, To The Show That Never Ends, Ladies and Gentlemen. The marketplace did get the triple Quad 8 tape set (with Quadradisc logo) but the CD-4 albums never made it. The CD-4 Cutting Center engineer @ RCA in Los Angeles (Daryl Johnson) told me they could never cut a stable CD-4 record from those tapes. So all we could ever listen to and copy in subsequent years were those Q8 tapes (including the factory speed flutter on one of the carts that haunts all copies to this day!). I submit that a DTS DVD of this ELP quad semi-release, with stable speed and none of the Q8 hiss would be an amazing release and a total home run.

Another release option with limited exposure would be Randy Newman - Sail Away which I understand to have been quad reel only with no CD-4/Q8 counterparts.

In summary, it has to be pretty clear from this thread that Rhino has our full attention and support to continue with this program of surround music releases.

[Bob Vosgien]

It does, Jon! And welcome, Bob!

If I had a main question, it's pretty much what I would ask Steve Hoffman at his place when he works on a project, mainly: What was the condition of the master tape? Any special 'things' you had to do to get the best out of it? Anything unusual or interesting about the project? Technical stuff for us duffers, but I've always enjoyed reading about such things, esp. with music that I've enjoyed for so many years.


Also, thanks for the work you did on CTA!

ED

Hi Ed, glad your enjoying the disc!
The 1/2" 4-tracks were in excellent shape although they did need baking. The Quad mixes seemed to have less reverb on them compared to the original stereo mixes, so when I could, I added a little "air" on the top without making the horns harsh or edgy. "Beginnings" and "Questions" were the best mixes and I used those as the benchmark for mastering the rest of the DVD. They were basically cut "flat" with just some level compensation added. "Listen" and "I'm A Man" were very thin mixes for some reason and needed a good bass boost to bring them in line with the rest of the tracks. In general, my mastering technique when dealing with older recordings is to try to get the most out of the original recordings while staying true to the era it was conceived.

Thanks again,
Bob

[Bob Vosgien]

Thank you Jon and welcome Bob! The Chicago disc is fun to listen to and I hope to enjoy more in the series. My question would be are we limited to that which was officially quad before or can we dare dream of announced but never released titles: ELP - Trilogy, Todd Rundgren - Initation, Allman Brothers Band - Brothers And Sisters, James Taylor - Sweet Baby James, etc. ?

If the former, here's a few I'd absolutely have to have:

Chicago VII, Chicago X (mixed for DVD-A 5.1 never issued), Alice Cooper - Muscle Of Love, Doobie Brothers - What Were Once Vices Now Habits, Randy Newman - Sail Away, Seals & Crofts - Summer Breeze, Carly Simon - Greatest Hits, Paul Simon - There Goes Rymin' Simon,

PS - Since James Taylor and Carole King are doing a 40th Anniversary tour - wouldn't the long rumored Sweet Baby James make a perfect quad release?

Thanks for this opportunity! Tim

Hi Tim,
Apparently there were Quad mixes done for ABB "Filmore","Brothers and Sisters", JT "Sweet Baby James", Alice Cooper "Billion"and "Muscle", YES "Close To The Edge", Jethro Tull "Aqualung"and "War Child" and many others! We're checking the vaults at the moment to see what's actually there. I for one would LOVE to have Close To The Edge in Quad!

Best,

Bob

[Bob Romano]

Hi Tim,
Apparently there were Quad mixes done for ABB "Filmore","Brothers and Sisters", JT "Sweet Baby James", Alice Cooper "Billion"and "Muscle", YES "Close To The Edge", Jethro Tull "Aqualung"and "War Child" and many others! We're checking the vaults at the moment to see what's actually there. I for one would LOVE to have Close To The Edge in Quad!

Best,

Bob

Welcome Bob... I am sure will find a great many really friendly people here who all have the same passion - surround music (and quad in particular). If you can say - is Rhino Handmade looking to license titles from other labels as well as the Warner vault. To my knowledge Jethro Tull is controlled by EMI and The Allman brothers titles mentioned would fall under UMG (even though they released through Warner in the 70's). I love the Aqualung and War Child quads so those would be huge for me as well as Close To The Edge. But what the hell... I'll buy em all!!! Really nice job on the CTA by the way. I have listened to it several times now (usually skipping over Free Form Guitar) and it really shines in my opinion.

I hope you find your time here enjoyable.

Thanks
Bob

[ress4278]

Wow, man o' man, get outa town!! If there were quality CTTE & ELP Trilogy releases in quad, I'd be all over that. Sweet Baby James in quad! Bob, if these happen, will you accept my hand in marraige?

[winopener]

Hello Bob,

"Listen" and "I'm A Man" were very thin mixes for some reason and needed a good bass boost to bring them in line with the rest of the tracks.

I'm still waiting my 2 copies of your work - shipping to italy can be very long - so i can't comment on the mastering you've done (and from the comment i've read it should be excellent); the SQ matrix, which was the original format of CTA, had some quirks with low frequencies (PF DSOTM is a clear example), maybe these two tracks had a problematic mix when encoded to SQ while on discrete media it was ok.

[winopener]

Using your "short" list (that i hope it will become longer and longer) a brief note on what's has been released of these:

- ABB "Filmore", released as quad (reel, cd4, q8), as dts-cd by HDS, as SACD.
- "Brothers and Sisters", afaik no multichannel release in any format (Eat a Peach instead was released in the same formats as Fillmore)
- JT "Sweet Baby James", never released (two JT Warner titles that had a quad release were Gorilla and One man dog - reel cd4 q8; no dts-cd or dvda or sacd of these)
- Alice Cooper "Billion"and "Muscle" both released as quad (reel, cd4, q8); Billion remixed for dvd-a release and really released!
- YES "Close To The Edge", never released (dvd-a 5.1 mix of Fragile was released) and it will be really a dream come true
- Jethro Tull "Aqualung"and "War Child" both released as quad (reel, cd4, q8), no dts-cd or sacd or dvda

[filper]

Welcome Bob.

Of the 60 titles you mentioned, are there any more you can name to whet our appetites ?

[JonUrban]

Bob,

Can you dig out the quad masters to the first two Eagles albums. They were reportedly readied for quad release in the '70s, and like many titles, they never made it out to retail. If you could find Desperado, whoa, that would be SWEET!

If you found these two, you could actually create a box set of their first 4 in quad, plus Hotel California in 5.1, and have an instant big seller. The Eagles Band has been surround friendly in the past (Hole in the World, Hell Freezes Over, the quad LPs, etc), maybe this could actually be a possibility. But, alas, I deam on......................

[Q-Eight]

Bob,

Can you dig out the quad masters to the first two Eagles albums. They were reportedly readied for quad release in the '70s, and like many titles, they never made it out to retail. If you could find Desperado, whoa, that would be SWEET!

If you found these two, you could actually create a box set of their first 4 in quad, plus Hotel California in 5.1, and have an instant big seller. The Eagles Band has been surround friendly in the past (Hole in the World, Hell Freezes Over, the quad LPs, etc), maybe this could actually be a possibility. But, alas, I deam on......................

I second the notion! The Eagles are surround friendly and popular! They would sell well - if not BETTER than Chicago I would think.

[Old Quad Guy]

That is an Excellent idea for a Quad Eagles box set! Wow, if the unreleased Quad Eagles mixes could be found and released along with the one's that were, that would be killer. The Eagles Quad mixes that we're released in the 1970's really give the songs a huge lift! The unreleased one's would be just unbelievable I'm sure when found. Who knows what other Quad mixes that even we in the Quad community were unaware of that might exist in the vaults?

Also, if looking at other vaults from other labels for Quadraphonic tapes, I would bring your attention to Blue Oyster Cult's' "Agents of Fortune" Quadraphonic mix and Dave Mason "Let it Flow" releases on SQ Quad record in extremely very small number's towards the end of the Quad era on the Columbia labels. So small were these releases most people have not even heard of these releases. Perhaps these still might exist either in discrete tape form or on encoded SQ tape form in the vaults.