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Thread: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

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    Default Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    First, I'm a new user of Discwelder Chrome II, so please have patience with me for a few days. And, thanks to Neil who really helped me get started with this program.

    I have successfully created a DVD-Audio layer with a custom menu, background photo, track photos (multiple on some tracks) and 48/24 5.1-channel PCM audio. So, I'm very pleased with the DVD-Audio results.

    Then I tried to include a mirrored DVD-Video track. Using my original Chrome II files, I succeeding in creating a DVD-Video "layer" that can only play through the entire album. If you try to pause, skip forward, skip backwards or hit the menu, all three players I've tried hang. The other interesting thing is that when the disc "plays through", only the first still image can be seen. If you skip forward, the screen goes blank, audio stops after about 10 seconds and then the whole thing stops playing.

    I created the DVD-Audio using TrackPoints. So I thought this might be a problem for the DVD-Video mirroring. I then created an alternate track listing by manually dividing the tracks and sure enough that seems to work much better. The only thing consistently not working is the skip forward button (skip backwards works) but I'm still looking at that. But, the menu works great and everything plays normally.

    Should I assume that I cannot use TrackPoints if I want to have mirrored DVD-Video output? Would a disc made up of TrackPoints for DVD-A and then manually divided tracks for DVD-V be possible storing the DVD-V version first and then adding to a DVD-A compilation?

    Thanks again for helping the newbie (although not a newbie in the forum).

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    you cannot create DVD Video or more correct ADVD (Audio only DVD) with 5.1 surround mix by useing PCM.
    it is out of spec of DVD standard. multitracks should be compressed and packed to DTS or DD format.
    if you used DVDLab for creating your VIDEO_TS directory, then you can use single long track with added track
    points at beginning of every particular track.

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Otto, The part about not being able to use multichannel PCM on the Video_TS side, I understand. DiscWelder creates an AC3 version of the PCM multichannel tracks by using the audio files that are intended the DVD-A side. A Video_TS with the AC3 tracks is created as well as the Audio_TS with the PCM tracks.

    What I'm trying to figure out is what goes wrong with DiscWelder's Video_TS when using TrackPoints for the Audio_TS. It's almost as if the program doesn't recognize that these are now separate tracks when creating the Video_TS.

    Your point about using DVDLab is interesting. While I solved my DiscWelder problem by using Gapless individual tracks for DVD-A, that leaves a half-second gap on the DVD-V side with some players. Maybe DVDLab can solve that problem. Thanks for the advice.

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Quote Originally Posted by 0tto View Post
    you cannot create DVD Video or more correct ADVD (Audio only DVD) with 5.1 surround mix by useing PCM.
    it is out of spec of DVD standard. multitracks should be compressed and packed to DTS or DD format.
    if you used DVDLab for creating your VIDEO_TS directory, then you can use single long track with added track
    points at beginning of every particular track.
    I'm looking at DVDLab now - downloaded the 30 day trial copy. If I understand this right, what I'll have to do is to take the 6 multichannel files of the album, create an AC3 version, load that into DVDLab, create the track points and then make the Video_TS files. All of that is pretty simple. What I'm wondering is, now that I have the Video_TS mirroring apparently working in DiscWelder, is there any advantage to DVDLab? I see one advantage is the ability to make a DTS audio track 2, but I'll need to get Surcode DTS-Pro first (I have Surcode DTS-CD).

    If I use DVDLab to generate a Video_TS with just AC3 audio and still images, am I doing the exact same thing that DiscWelder is now already doing for me? Does using DVDLab reduce the gaps between tracks that happens with the Video_TS created by DiscWelder (and DVD Architect) when using still images? I have always assumed that was the result of using still images with some DVD players and not dependent upon the encoder. However, maybe my assumption is incorrect, so I thought I'd ask.

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    yes, DVDLab will do audio stream gapless if you use one long track and mark it with track points.

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Otto, thanks. With the gapless stream can I include a still image per track (song) or is this the audio only option that I saw in the DVDLab menu?

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    yes, in every track (chapter in this case) you can add it's own picture or alter one single pic with provided in prog. paint tools
    there also bunch of different templates you may use

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Quote Originally Posted by 0tto View Post
    yes, in every track (chapter in this case) you can add it's own picture or alter one single pic with provided in prog. paint tools
    there also bunch of different templates you may use

    Edit: Found it: Right click on the Title Screen line and then add chapters manually. Now I'm trying to figure out how to add the images to match the chapter points.

    I've loaded the one file with the entire album AC3 audio track onto the audio-only timeline. I'm trying to figure out an easy way to set the chapter marks. So far I've only found a way to place the chapter marks by clicking on the timeline. How do I adjust the time for each of the marks so that I can be within a second of where the song begins?

    Making good progress. I'm curious to see how large the Video_TS becomes with this method.

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Well, I created my first Video_TS with DVDLab Pro 2. I used Audio Only and then placed a new image at each chapter point.

    Unfortunately when playing back the audio there is still a 1/2 second gap when the image gets updated. The only advantage I saw over the Discwelder method was that the skip forward button works with DVDLab and doesn't with Discwelder. Discwelder has the advantage of mirroring the menus on the Audio_TS side and I can set the timings much more accurately for the image/chapter changes. It also has the advantage of already being paid for :-)

    So, I think I'm back to just having Discwelder handle the mirroring on the Video_TS.

    Thanks for the help with getting me up to speed for the comparison, even if it didn't work in favor of DVDLab.

    Andy
    Last edited by alk3997; 10-01-2011 at 08:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    what do you use for monitoring and testing of your project?
    there cannot be any gaps because physical file is a continuous with no blank spots between songs.

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Two different dvd-video players - one old Sony and one in a GM car. Both of them lose the bitstream when the picture changes. I agree there isn't a gap in the file but a very brief loss of the bitstream.

    Since both Discwelder and DVDLab produce the same result as far as a gap is concerned, there isn't a real good argument to use DVDLab Pro over Discwelder for Video_TS. Both authoring methods seem to be doing the same thing.

    Andy
    Last edited by alk3997; 10-02-2011 at 06:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Hi Andy

    Are you aware of this tip from Neil regarding a bug in DVD Lab Pro in relation to chapter points and gapless playback? Works a treat.

    Problem #2 here is that there is a very nasty bug in DLP with Audio-Only titles, and that is obvious when using segued tracks, as the cells are set to non seamless by default.
    Even if you are using a single contiguous stream this will happen.
    The effect is that the player will empty it's buffers at the track point, causing a glitch. Doesn't happen on all players but a good number of them will be affected.
    We found this bug during ITCOTCK production......and there is a fix too.
    Launch PGCEdit (donationware) and double click each TT item in each VTS, and set the cells to seamless, save & then write the disc.

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    No, I was not aware of this. Thank you. I will give that a try.

    Do you know if that was only DLP or also DLP 2?

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Wow! That seemed to work. I will have to do more testing tomorrow.

    Interestingly, using PGCEdit I see that the way DiscWelder and DLP2 are creating the Video_TS structure is completely different. DiscWelder is creating individual tracks while DLP2 is creating one long track with markers. Very interesting.

    Thanks again for pointing this out.

    BTW, do I have any limitations about how many tracks in a row (or time) I can go with the seamless option enabled?

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Well thanks to all of your help, I used DVDLab Pro 2 to create Video_TS files with AC3 output that have no gaps, work in all DVD-Video players I've tried, are importable into DiscWelder and the menus look like the DVD-Audio menus. The skip forward and skip backwards buttons even work. So I'm very happy with this.

    I'm stumped on one last item that I'm hoping someone would know the answer. I need to tweak the times for the chapter marks and I can't find a simple way to do it. The only way I see right now is to delete all the chapter marks and re-add them. That would take more time than I would like given I'll probably have a few rounds of tweaking. Is there an easier way? I looked for the Chapter Properties and it is greyed out on an audio-only project. I looked for the +1 and -1 second buttons but those are also greyed out. Not sure what to do with that right now. I consistently seem to be a second late in the chapter marks. I guess it is just where the I-frame ends up.

    Again, thanks for the help with this. This is a much more compatible output for the music.

    BTW, that PGCEdit is a really slick program. Well worth the $15 the author wants.

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    OK, I think this my last question on the subject. When I import DVDLab Pro 2 Video_TS into DiscWelder, I get these four warnings.

    A VTS with pre commands is not legal for VIDEO_TS import. (VTS_PRE_CMD_Ns).
    A VTS with more than one post command is not legal for VIDEO_TS import. (VTS_POST_CMD_Ns).
    A VTS with pre commands is not legal for VIDEO_TS import. (VTS_PRE_CMD_Ns).
    A VTS with more than one post command is not legal for VIDEO_TS import. (VTS_POST_CMD_Ns).

    The resultant shiney disc works great but I'd still like to clean-up the warnings if possible. Anyone know how to turn these options off in DVDLab Pro 2?

    I'm still looking myself but thought I'd see if anyone already knew the answer.

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Having now done some more searching, I find that a lot of this has come up before in this forum. Links to the previous threads are:

    http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...operly-anymore!
    http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...A-hybrid-discs.

    And then removing the abstraction layer can be found at:
    http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...VD-A-V-Project

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Answering another question of mine - Version 2.0.26 would recognize my burner drives but versions 2.0.28 and 2.0.30 would not, even with the latest Gear drivers.

    Minnetonka explained this to me. Basically Blu-Ray drives are not recognized in 2.0.28 and 2.0.30 (don't know why they work in 2.0.26) but DVD burners are recognized. So, I swapped a Blu-Ray burner with a DVD Burner in the editing computer (it has two burner drives). Now the DVD burner is recognized but the Blu-Ray burner still is not.

    Just adding that to the Q&A in case someone runs into this later.

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Quote Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post
    OK, I think this my last question on the subject. When I import DVDLab Pro 2 Video_TS into DiscWelder, I get these four warnings.

    A VTS with pre commands is not legal for VIDEO_TS import. (VTS_PRE_CMD_Ns).
    A VTS with more than one post command is not legal for VIDEO_TS import. (VTS_POST_CMD_Ns).
    A VTS with pre commands is not legal for VIDEO_TS import. (VTS_PRE_CMD_Ns).
    A VTS with more than one post command is not legal for VIDEO_TS import. (VTS_POST_CMD_Ns).

    The resultant shiney disc works great but I'd still like to clean-up the warnings if possible. Anyone know how to turn these options off in DVDLab Pro 2?

    I'm still looking myself but thought I'd see if anyone already knew the answer.

    Andy
    Easiest way is to turn off the Abstraction Layer at compile time.
    It means you need to write all your own code though.....not easy at first but certainly not rocket science either.
    Whilst a disc with these errors might play, it is not guaranteed to and certainly would fail at replication as there are sadly a lot of players where this is fatal.
    Here's where it gets confusing in the specs though:
    The problem is that we are effectively putting 2 formats onto a single disc, with hooks from one into the other as well.
    As long as you are not actually liking into the Video_TS content in any way, these errors will never show their faces as they are to do with what happens when the player gets to the end of a title in the Video_TS (The only permitted POST command in DVD-Video for DVD-Audio import is to CallSS from TT_DOM (title domain) to VMGM_DOM (Video Manager Domain).
    Why this is a restriction I do not know, as it should only be picked up by DVD-Video players and ignored by Audio players anyway. But there you are!
    PreCommands are instructions at the start of a title in VTS - in DLP, these can be accessed by right-clicking on the icon in the project connections window & editing PrePost commands.
    The problem, of course, is that to stop the AL doing this, you have to turn it off at compile time.......

    In all honesty, the chances of these errors actually biting you are vanishingly small unless submitting for replication, which requires a specification compliance check.
    Which it would fail.
    BUT - as stated earlier, these commands are ignored by DVD-A players (or should be) and will work with DVD-V players regardless.
    So I can only assume there are DVD-A players that will, for some odd reason, get affected by this although I cannot think how as the POST commands are simply returning playback to a screen in the menu system - in a DVD-Video player that booted up off VIDEO_TS.IFO

    Dontcha just love things designed by committees?
    Oh well, whatever - nevermind.

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Neil, thanks for the great explanation! I've been playing with the pre commands and came up with menu selections on each audio menu for DTS and AC3. This way I don't have to go into submenus to select my video. I also added an indicator to show which type of audio has been selected by either the menu or the audio key. So, I'm starting to figure out the programming behind DVDs (just starting). When I get a few minutes (hours) one day I'll try to work out how to add programming so I can remove the abstraction layer.

    Thanks again! (from a former rocket scientist)

    Andy

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    Default Re: Discwelder Chrome II: Gapless Tracks Versus TrackPoints in DVD-Video output

    Andy, it is not that hard to do.
    Just remember the "rules" for Video_TS imported to Audio_TS* and you're laughing - we can use VTSM now, and that makes all the difference.
    All you do is match video resolution & audio streams in a VTS - they must all be the same, so if VTS1 has 24/48 LPCM & DTS 9624, and a 16:9 aspect ratio, then all titles in that VTS must have the same. Different audio (IE just LPCM)? New VTS. Different bit depth? new VTS.
    You jump across from one VTS to another by using a VMGM (technically, you cannot go from TT_DOM (Title Domain) in one VTS to TT-DOM in another VTS, you must go through VMGM_DOM (Video Manager Domain). You can either use dummy blank screens and PRE Commands, or a still image/movie and POST commands.

    Where non abstraction layer authoring gets complex is using GPRM and SPRM programming to set conditional branching, traps and fall-throughs in the menu structures.

    * - These are here in this forum, at http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/foru...-hybrid-discs.
    Oh well, whatever - nevermind.

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