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Thread: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by djsweep View Post
    Technically DVD-A is not superior to SACD in any sense of the word. SACD has oversampling that is 8 times the resolution of a DVD-A (PCM signal). SACD is considered the closest thing to the Analog tapes as possible-almost an EXACT copy. The reason why there is not a lot of SACD titles for current bands is because the current bands were recorded in PCM and to upconvert PCM to SACD (DSD) doesn't create anything better than the source. Whereas the reason why they are pulling a lot of old titles from the past is because they were recorded on Analog tape. Since DSD (SACD) is considered to be an exact copy of the analog tapes it makes since to convert those to digital for the final time as it will be the closest to the source. Just take a look at the Elton John SACD's, they were all done from the Protool masters (PCM) and as such the piano sounds like poop. The Doors DVD-A mixes sucked---Morrison Hotel mixes were so far from the original i won't dirty my player by putting them into it again. There was stuff on the DVD-A's i hope i never hear again. I don't have the SACD's but I hope they are better than the DVD-A and I will buy them as soon as possible.
    uh-oh.. I hear a huge can of worms being opened!

    If QQ-ers like Neil Wilkes see your comments about SACD and DVDA, I'm sure they'll be happy to counter your findings.

    Also, does the piano in your Elton SACDs sound like poop to you in stereo or multichannel?
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredblue View Post
    uh-oh.. I hear a huge can of worms being opened!

    If QQ-ers like Neil Wilkes see your comments about SACD and DVDA, I'm sure they'll be happy to counter your findings.

    Also, does the piano in your Elton SACDs sound like poop to you in stereo or multichannel?
    It sounded like poop on the original DSD sessions that were done in Boulder Colorado where I listened to the source files on speakers that were 30K a piece.

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by djsweep View Post
    Technically DVD-A is not superior to SACD in any sense of the word. SACD has oversampling that is 8 times the resolution of a DVD-A (PCM signal). SACD is considered the closest thing to the Analog tapes as possible-almost an EXACT copy.
    pretty bold statement but well, everyone to their own preferences. in regards for fidelity of recorded material,
    there are good and bad in both, so mainly from my point of view this mainly depends on skill and hearing of those,
    who mastered the sound.
    but i very much doubt the ability of DSD to retain analog coloration of recorded sound, thus superiority over PCM.
    in fact PCM has come much closer to this potential.

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by djsweep View Post
    It sounded like poop on the original DSD sessions that were done in Boulder Colorado where I listened to the source files on speakers that were 30K a piece.
    and you believe this to be because of a drop in quality going from PCM protool masters to DSD?

    did anybody else listening to these sessions at the Super Audio Center (I'm thinking possibly of the likes of Gus Skinas for starters but anybody else noteworthy who was involved in these Elton remixes would do) agree with you at the time that Elton's piano sounded like poop as a result?

    have you posted your findings at sa-cd.net about the deficiencies of the Elton SACDs yet?
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    a couple more questions for you djsweep, if I may, as its such a wonderful opportunity to have someone like yourself on here with insider knowledge and access to these mixes in the studio..

    have you compared the DVD-Audio release of Elton's Goodbye Yellow Brick Road to the DSD/SACD version and found that the piano sound is improved without the PCM to DSD conversion 'colouring' the sound?

    have you heard any of the as-yet unreleased Elton 5.1 mixes (from the Caribou, Don't Shoot me, Blue Moves or Rock of the Westies albums) and if you have what did you think of them?
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    thank you in advance for your responses, djsweep. these Elton 5.1 mixes are real treasures in my surround music collection and as such any new information I can glean about them means a lot to me.
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by fredblue View Post
    and you believe this to be because of a drop in quality going from PCM protool masters to DSD?

    did anybody else listening to these sessions at the Super Audio Center (I'm thinking possibly of the likes of Gus Skinas for starters but anybody else noteworthy who was involved in these Elton remixes would do) agree with you at the time that Elton's piano sounded like poop as a result?

    have you posted your findings at sa-cd.net about the deficiencies of the Elton SACDs yet?
    Yes it was Gus's studio. When I heard the Elton John tracks coming straight from Sonoma i asked "what's wrong with the piano?" and you could see his shoulders drop....He then said "I wish they sent me the master tapes, but they only gave me the pro tools sessions." I assumed based on his response that he wasn't happy with it either, but you'll have to ask him what he thinks.

    I haven't posted anything on SA-CD.net but certainly could....I only have one Elton John SACD but i like it better than any other PCM version i've heard.

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    I don't have the DVD-A mixes, I wish I did as i always like to show people the difference in format's....I will try to get a copy and post up a reply. Unfortunately haven't heard anything about unreleased tracks, but will ask if I see him again.

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by djsweep View Post
    Yes it was Gus's studio. When I heard the Elton John tracks coming straight from Sonoma i asked "what's wrong with the piano?" and you could see his shoulders drop....He then said "I wish they sent me the master tapes, but they only gave me the pro tools sessions." I assumed based on his response that he wasn't happy with it either, but you'll have to ask him what he thinks.

    I haven't posted anything on SA-CD.net but certainly could....I only have one Elton John SACD but i like it better than any other PCM version i've heard.
    thank you SO much for your responses! this is such a fascinating (but also rather depressing!) revelation in the story behind these mixes!

    sadly I don't know Gus to ask him myself but if you get the chance to probe him further, it would be brilliant to hear more about the background story to the development of these 5.1 Elton mixes.

    well i'd say where's the harm in posting your findings there too and seeing what the folks on sa-cd.net make of your news!?
    let's face it, it's a bit sleepy over there at times, they could probably do with some fresh blood to inject into their forum!
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by djsweep View Post
    I don't have the DVD-A mixes, I wish I did as i always like to show people the difference in format's....I will try to get a copy and post up a reply. Unfortunately haven't heard anything about unreleased tracks, but will ask if I see him again.
    this could explain why I've always preferred the DVD-Audio to the SACD of this album! I seriously doubt my home theatre (or my hearing for that matter!) could fully resolve any actual differences between the two formats' presentations of this albums' 5.1 remix but.. you never know!?

    I'm pretty sure you can still find a copy of the GYBR DVD-Audio up for sale at a reasonable price. Either way it's all good fun to rediscover the classics of yesteryear eh!

    any info you could attain on the unreleased 5.1 Elton mixes would be most appreciated, thank you!
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    I think PCM has more variety of DAC's so someone arguably got it pretty close with their converters. Sometimes when converting you only hear the converters, or the converters color it a way that resonates well with you. What I was looking at was the waveform display between 24 bit and DSD which can be viewed here (1/4 the way down)

    http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bi...h-exploded/795

    My main point is that when you're coming from Analog Tape all the color is already there, the converters should be sterile in their representation. If you want color on SACD, get it on the front end with different mic pre's or mic's. That being said, I'm sure Meitner's sound different than Mytek converters, and i'm sure the other compnaies that make DSD converters sound their own way. Ehh... When I heard SACD I was sold.

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    I think that PCM has more converters on the market so they probably have some that retain coloration. I think if your source is analog tape then the color is already there. I would rather have the most sterile converters possible to keep what's there present. if you're talking about recording straight into DSD then i would get my color from the mic and mic pre selection. I think that the DSD converters do a great job in taking a picture of what's there. I use the Meitner's for PCM and have no complaints, but I know they sound better on DSD. I guess what i'm looking at when i say "EXACT copy"is the waveform from source to duplication - here's a diagram ---it's about 1/4 the way down the page-

    http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bi...h-exploded/795

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    woosh! most of that went over my head! but thank you for all that info anyway!

    although, it would seem from further discussion in that thread you referenced, that the advantages of DSDs oversampling are outweighed by all the ultrasonic stuff.. and that PCM resolves everything from the analogue source, regardless of what the wave forms show, as long as the bit word length and frequency rate are above "x" bits and "x" kHz.

    I wish Neil Wilkes and other QQ experts would wade in here and clarify everything. I don't know enough about it all to chew it over with you sadly.. but I do know that of any high-res albums that I have in both SACD and DVD-Audio, I prefer the sound quality on the latter.

    I still love my SACDs don't get me wrong and for those albums I love in M/C SACD that I've not heard in high-res PCM/DVDA, I'm happy to live in blissful ignorance and enjoy them for their own entertainment value and better than redbook CD quality, whether there's an alternative high-res format or not!!
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by djsweep View Post
    I think PCM has more variety of DAC's so someone arguably got it pretty close with their converters. Sometimes when converting you only hear the converters, or the converters color it a way that resonates well with you. What I was looking at was the waveform display between 24 bit and DSD which can be viewed here (1/4 the way down)

    http://www.head-fi.org/t/415361/24bi...h-exploded/795

    My main point is that when you're coming from Analog Tape all the color is already there, the converters should be sterile in their representation. If you want color on SACD, get it on the front end with different mic pre's or mic's. That being said, I'm sure Meitner's sound different than Mytek converters, and i'm sure the other compnaies that make DSD converters sound their own way. Ehh... When I heard SACD I was sold.
    The converters are a big part of the sound that you hear. I agree that SACD discs played through the Meitner converters are very nice !

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by djsweep View Post
    I think that PCM has more converters on the market so they probably have some that retain coloration. I think if your source is analog tape then the color is already there. I would rather have the most sterile converters possible to keep what's there present. if you're talking about recording straight into DSD then i would get my color from the mic and mic pre selection.
    i didn't talk about coloration of the sound by DAC during decoding. neither about coloration during recording. the perfect
    recording/playback chain should have an absolutely flat characteristics and never alter recorded/played signal.
    instead i said retain, which means in regards to respective formats to save incoming signal in it's origin. perhaps you agree that
    sound isn't a stale, dry mathematical thing but endless variations of basic frequencies multiplied by neighboring to them harmonical microdistortions.
    we can easily distinguish voices (and human voice is most complex fenomen in nature of sound), thanks to those harmonics.
    the sources from analog medium of the past hardly can be considered as ideal storages due to their thechnical imperfections and limitations.
    thus when converted to digital in best case scenario they deliver information about sound, which was able to retain,
    typically in upper celling is limited to 18~22KHz. but i'm sure, you know that theoretically this ceiling for sound has no limit and
    can go into infinity. when you record from such medium like LP with it's 18KHz limit, into 96KHz PCM, you can see active sound goes
    above 25-45KHz, which in fact can't be on the source. so, mechanical vibration of the styli creates those harmonic distortion thus
    gave to sound of LP it's charm which is prised among so many people. pretty similar happens with recorded direc to digital domain sound.
    harmonical distortion of the acoustical sound, starting within basic freq. range, then continues way above and that's what we call "live sound".
    sadly DSD has effective limitation at 22KHz and everything above is reserved for noise thus those harmonics, which gives liveness to the
    sound, during DSD recording would be harshly cut off.

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Being fairly new to this amazing group of people here (who all share my love for all things quad)...can anyone tell me if anywhere on this site there is a post/list of other titles that are anticipating a re-release/reissue of either SACD/DVD-A or Blu-Ray in 5.1 surround (or high resolution stereo)? I am currently selling off a lot of my collection (to help get my daughter a car and through college) and it would be easier to let some of these go (especially some of the more rare titles) if I knew that even someday they might become available again and I won't have to pay $100-200 per title!

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-in-CT View Post
    Being fairly new to this amazing group of people here (who all share my love for all things quad)...can anyone tell me if anywhere on this site there is a post/list of other titles that are anticipating a re-release/reissue of either SACD/DVD-A or Blu-Ray in 5.1 surround (or high resolution stereo)? I am currently selling off a lot of my collection (to help get my daughter a car and through college) and it would be easier to let some of these go (especially some of the more rare titles) if I knew that even someday they might become available again and I won't have to pay $100-200 per title!
    ah, the eternal question!

    I suppose if the latest ELP reissues are a success, we may get a possible replacement for your BSS DVDA.. (although a different, hopefully even better, if that's possible, Steven Wilson one.. only potentially in lossy DTS!).

    meantime there's always the Deluxe SACD of the same Kellogg mixed BSS 5.1 which is readily available and pretty cheap.

    other than that, going on the short list you posted up on the Swap area, I don't think we'll see any Alison Krauss, Oasis, Carpenters, etc in 5.1 anytime soon to replace your SACDs, sadly
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris-in-CT View Post
    Being fairly new to this amazing group of people here (who all share my love for all things quad)...can anyone tell me if anywhere on this site there is a post/list of other titles that are anticipating a re-release/reissue of either SACD/DVD-A or Blu-Ray in 5.1 surround (or high resolution stereo)? I am currently selling off a lot of my collection (to help get my daughter a car and through college) and it would be easier to let some of these go (especially some of the more rare titles) if I knew that even someday they might become available again and I won't have to pay $100-200 per title!
    A good way to check what's Coming Soon in High Resolution is to follow the Coming Soon web section of the Acoustic Sounds web store at http://store.acousticsounds.com/inde...omingSoon=true

    It has a series of filters on the upper right hand of the page that lets you sort upcoming releases by format type (SACD, DVD, CD, etc.) and then even more granular on each format page (for SACD they have Hybrid Multichannel SACD, Hybrid Stereo SACD, etc.).

    Right now, they are showing 108 SACDs in the Coming Soon category. Acoustic Sounds also lists 1 DVD Audio disc as Coming Soon (see http://store.acousticsounds.com/inde...&categoryID=23).

    There are similar listings at other web stores that carry Hi Res discs including Elusive Disc and Music Direct.

    Enjoy!

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoura View Post
    A good way to check what's Coming Soon in High Resolution is to follow the Coming Soon web section of the Acoustic Sounds web store at http://store.acousticsounds.com/inde...omingSoon=true

    It has a series of filters on the upper right hand of the page that lets you sort upcoming releases by format type (SACD, DVD, CD, etc.) and then even more granular on each format page (for SACD they have Hybrid Multichannel SACD, Hybrid Stereo SACD, etc.).

    Right now, they are showing 108 SACDs in the Coming Soon category. Acoustic Sounds also lists 1 DVD Audio disc as Coming Soon (see http://store.acousticsounds.com/inde...&categoryID=23).

    There are similar listings at other web stores that carry Hi Res discs including Elusive Disc and Music Direct.

    Enjoy!
    just the 1 multichannel SACD (Maeve O'Boyle from Linn) that I'd be even remotely interested in there though.. out of 108.. it's hardly a deluge of upcoming releases
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    Surround Music Collection/Addiction growing daily..
    488 SACDs (410 MultiCh), 261 DVD-A,
    69 DualDiscs, 59 DTS CDs, 52 'Music Only' 5.1 DVD-Vs,
    36 BD-A, 23 "Surround Sound" CDs..

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Quad Linda View Post
    $100 is a lot to pay for the box itself, not including the discs. $30 per disc x 6 = $180 Numbered 6 SACD box set @ $280 = RIPOFF

    What does this prove? Audiophiles are the ultimate suckers, or at least Analogue Productions/Acoustic Sounds thinks we are.

    I hope they choke on all 2500 numbered copies.
    There is a book included withe the $100 empty box.

  21. #71
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Throw in a Best Of The Doors original quad mix SACD in the box and I'll take it. Otherwise I'm not even buying all of the titles. I'll start with Morrison Hotel. Skip The Doors since the Japan SACD sounds excellent and has some really good bonus tracks which I'd guess will be missing from the Analogue Productions versions.

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    If you order today from the Acoustic Sounds website there is a 10% off sale going on and free shipping for orders over $79.99. I put in an order for 3 Doors SACDs for a total price of $81, and that's 3 day UPS delivery not some sort of smart mail.
    I like using Paypal to buy from them. Be sure to put in the code FREESHIP79 every place you see a chance to do it on the form, so that is at least twice, otherwise it doesn't work.

  23. Thanks fredblue thanked for this post
  24. #73
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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    The perception DVDs sound better all around. Fuller, larger sound with more bass. Surprising but TRUE! Don't bother with the SACDs!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Are you talking about the surround sound or the stereo? The stereo on Perception is remixed so could easily have more bass.

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    Default Re: The Doors - 4 New 5.1 SACD re releases from Analouge Productions?

    Quote Originally Posted by cupboy View Post
    Are you talking about the surround sound or the stereo? The stereo on Perception is remixed so could easily have more bass.
    5.1. Definitely a fuller larger sounds, clearer with more bass. I have compared SD, LA and MH SACDS to the perception DTS DVDs. The perception box set is much better!

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