10 WORST 5.1/Quad Mixes - What's yours?

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Going to be as civil as possible here- can't really see how you'd think that.

Every track has extreme separation, with individual instruments isolated in the front or rear channels. If you kill the fronts the vocals disappear. Some tracks feature DF's high and low harmonies split front and rear. The "My Old School" guitar solo is isolated to the right rear. All of the piano and guitar in "Bodhisattva" is isolated to the rears. "Show Biz Kids" backing vocals only in the rears.

I could break down instrument placements in every track if you'd like, with sound samples and waveforms.

This mix is extreme- akin to a Columbia Q8 type presentation. Its not perfect though- there are differences vs the stereo as noted in the poll thread ("King of The World" missing synth part, "Boston Rag" missing vocal improvs, etc).

My observations are based off the Romanotrax Q8 conversion (happy to share). I have the QS vinyl too, which obviously isn't as good as the Q8 but has plenty of separation through the Involve unit. The vinyl doesn't have the greatest sound though.

Great album though- hope we can agree on that
I'm basing my opinion on the echoy smeared sound from the QS vinyl. I never hear a good decode of it. So now I learn that it really does decode if you have the involve unit.

I think I have a dts CD of the Q8, I will listen again and revise my impressions accordingly if it warrants it. Thank you for detailed reply.
 
There should be two categories here: Worst mix and worst mastering.

There are a number of albums mentioned that I'm familiar with that sound like they were probably fine mixes but got destroyed from poor mastering. Lossy dts and dolby encodes come with the territory so often in surround land (as in the only format ever released for some albums). You have to kind of consider those as more of a preview or teaser for something you truly can't fully listen to yet. (ever?) That Rush Snakes & Arrows comes to mind as an extreme recent-ish example of this.

The batch of DVDA's from around 2000 that had the surround remixes (and remixes in lieu of original surround mixes when originals existed for the title) mostly sound like the crudest cookie cutter intern student made stereo mixes in front. Except with a coldly separated lead vocal in the center with zero reflection support. And then an awkward canned reverb that doesn't match anything blasting out of the rear. That Yes Fragile DVDA mentioned a few times in the thread is one of those.

Speaking of Rush, the surround mix released a few years ago on those "Sectors" editions for A Farewell To Kings was one of the more insulting mixes I've ever heard. Just crude and lo-fi. But that's now been corrected by almost the most accomplished remixes you could imagine. :)

Lot's of experimentation from the 1970's...
Ya know, it's hard to call some of these bad. (Well it's pretty easy in some cases!) There's a creative playfulness still in some of the bad ones though. I like the experimental attitude better than some of the homogeneous SOP mixes from more recent times.

Really the ones that disappoint me the most are the cookie cutter remixes just cranked out cheap to fill a slot on a disc format that typically features a surround mix with clearly no involvement by the band. Like a lot of the circa 2000 stuff. Then the ones that only get released in the lossy core dolby format as sort of a bonus aside on a primarily DVD Video release.

The most frustrating remixes I've ever heard are the Genesis remixes! Really excellent mixing work throughout with details revealed more than you might have hoped for. Very high level mix work. And then Tony Banks comes in and makes him turn the guitar solos and other parts down awkwardly low. And then it gets the mastering treatment usually done on CD/mp3 versions of releases. Crank up the treble so high you can hear the vocals clearly from an ear bud sitting out in the next room kind of thing. This skewed the mix pretty severely and pushed the vocals up in the center channel over the top of the mix among other things.

Oh, I'm supposed to list 10.
That older bootleggy Rush remix of Kings and the other couple titles that came out around it and then the Genesis remixes. And then the entire circa 2000 collection of remixes I was talking about!
That 10 yet?

Agreed on the poor live mix comment too but with one exception.
Mixing stereo and then just audience in back from multitrack is not the way to go. However, syncing an audience recording in back to a soundboard live recording up front can have wonderful results! (This is more "restoring as best as possible" than "mixing with intention" to be fair.)
 
Opeth - Sorceress 5.1 DVD in the Ltd. Ed. Box Set - which is selling on Discogs for less than I paid!
 
The other EJ classic years (70-76) albums that could be accused of being too bright are "Caribou" and "Blue Moves".

Yes, that is true, Mr. Blue, but how badly would you want to still hear Mr. Penny's 5.1 mix of those....and Don't Shoot Me, for good measure.
 
There should be two categories here: Worst mix and worst mastering.

There are a number of albums mentioned that I'm familiar with that sound like they were probably fine mixes but got destroyed from poor mastering. Lossy dts and dolby encodes come with the territory so often in surround land (as in the only format ever released for some albums). You have to kind of consider those as more of a preview or teaser for something you truly can't fully listen to yet. (ever?) That Rush Snakes & Arrows comes to mind as an extreme recent-ish example of this.

Needless to say, but here it is anyway: lossy Dolby or DTS encoding of themselves don't 'destroy' a mastering. Listener preconceptions do.
 
As do the DTS versions of nearly anything in the Jethro Tull re-issue series.

The DTS 96/24 Quad DVDs of ELO's "No Answer" and Ten Years After "A Space In Time" are also quite enjoyable. The TYA disc has the fronts and rears swapped though.
 
As do the DTS versions of nearly anything in the Jethro Tull re-issue series.

I can't really tell the difference between dts 2496 and lossless. (And I can hear 24 bit vs. reduced to 16 if I A/B that on my system. But only with full attention. And probably only with certain program. And it's definitely within perception bias! So what I'm saying is that if you think you hear a difference that is grossly worse than reducing 24 bit program to 16 bit, I'm pointing the finger at an incomplete decode.)

The first release of JT Aqualung offered a shootout between lossless and dts 2496 for some of the program. The dts2496 and the lossless nulled to silence with just a little wiggle at the bottom of the meter. Doing only a core decode of the dts2496 however (like many media players and hardware players only do unfortunately) was very obviously compromised vs the full decode. It didn't come close to nulling with the bluray. (I think I can safely conclude that the same master mix was used for both the lossless program on the bluray and the dts2496 on the DVD too. Otherwise we would have to entertain how one mix could be made to null with a different mix due to the random effects of generation loss.)

I've heard some lossy dts (core dts) that didn't just sound terrible at a glance. So I suspect that Snakes & Arrows title mentioned may have had additional mishandling. At any rate, the lo-fi sound doesn't sound like a poor mix. It sounds like generation loss.

Mastering disasters in surround releases have been by far the larger issue I think. And the encoding formats for shoving surround into stereo containers (from the vinyl formats to dts and dolby) have been nothing short of a giant PITA to retrieve a mix out of in the best cases.


My comment about liking the experimental or quirky '70s quad mixes notwithstanding, the Dylan quad mixes are terrible!
 
The DTS of Joshua Judges Ruth by Lyle Lovett sounds as good as anything I own.

I can hear a difference between uncompressed pcm and dts-cd easily with my ears on my setup. DTS-DVD at twice the bitrate is nearly equal as pcm to me. That must be an amazing recording and mix! Dolby and dts-cd are a pretty big downgrade imo. 24/192 in 2018 should be the standard now that bluray is thriving. My favorite dts-cd is Edgar Winter - Jasmine Nightdreams.
 
I can hear a difference between uncompressed pcm and dts-cd easily with my ears on my setup. DTS-DVD at twice the bitrate is nearly equal as pcm to me. That must be an amazing recording and mix! Dolby and dts-cd are a pretty big downgrade imo. 24/192 in 2018 should be the standard now that bluray is thriving. My favorite dts-cd is Edgar Winter - Jasmine Nightdreams.

Have you listened to it?
 
The part that's so bizarre is that all three Steely quads are credited to the same engineer (Roger Nichols). I can't see why he would suddenly change to a more subtle mixing style after doing two really aggressive quads. This album has just as much surround potential as the other two.

Was it just a weak effort? Did the mastering engineer somehow screw up? Did ABC purposely botch it to try and kill quad?

Grasping at straws here...

Clearly grasping at straws. It’s good mix; just a different style. Some mixes are more aggressive than others, but better or worse are subjective terms.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
My comment about liking the experimental or quirky '70s quad mixes notwithstanding, the Dylan quad mixes are terrible!

each to his own, that's surprising (to me) i enjoy the two Bob Dylan Quads.. i would say they are quite different types of surround mixes (by different engineers fwiw).. they have some at times jarring differences from their Stereo equivalents but i still like them on their own merits.. just comparing the two in decoded SQ form (i've only heard the one track from Nashville Skyline, on the Audio Fidelity surround compilation, in discrete form) the former comes across much more 4-corner Quad type mix than Desire.. i favour the latter kind of mix for such an artist but still find them both to be far from terrible and rather a lot of fun! :)
 
I can hear a difference between uncompressed pcm and dts-cd easily with my ears on my setup. DTS-DVD at twice the bitrate is nearly equal as pcm to me. That must be an amazing recording and mix! Dolby and dts-cd are a pretty big downgrade imo. 24/192 in 2018 should be the standard now that bluray is thriving. My favorite dts-cd is Edgar Winter - Jasmine Nightdreams.

Jasmine Nightdreams is one of the best/non-worst Quad mixes of all time!* :worthy

(* imho.! :D )
 
The part that's so bizarre is that all three Steely quads are credited to the same engineer (Roger Nichols). I can't see why he would suddenly change to a more subtle mixing style after doing two really aggressive quads. This album has just as much surround potential as the other two.

Was it just a weak effort? Did the mastering engineer somehow screw up? Did ABC purposely botch it to try and kill quad?

Grasping at straws here...

it is a very subdued surround presentation i would say but the last time i took time to compare the QS of Pretzel Logic to the Stereo i am sure i noticed some differences which took me from my previous "this is fake Quad" stance and tipped me over into "this is subtle Quad" mindset.. i think, its been a while!

what an album.. deserving of a more engaging Quad mix imho.. hopefully one day we might hear Elliot Scheiner's surround remix..!!
 
My two cents on this subject...

The comments on the Cat Stevens quads hit home pretty hard. I love those albums, but they have very poor surround mixes. Foreigner is probably the best of the bunch, but even that one is pretty underwhelming. Even the Q8 transfers I have (which should provide the best separation) are underwhelming, not to mention the loss of overall fidelity and high tape hiss level one endures when listening to them. But like I said, these are some of my favorite albums, and I find the quad presentation is still a notch better than the stereo when it comes to overall musical enjoyment for me. The best bet for these is a clean SQ decode since there wont be enough loss of separation to really matter, and you have a shot at getting a full fidelity recording.

After reading the comments on the Steely Dan quads, I guess I need to have another listen. My recollection is that they were also pretty underwhelming with Can't Buy a Thrill somewhat better than the others. Its hard to believe the same band that gave us those 70's quads also gave us Gaucho, Two Against Nature, Everything Must Go, and a collection of great Fagen solo albums. Maybe that's the result of having no input from the band on the quad releases.

For modern 5.1 offerings I gotta go with the Rush series as being the worst. I haven't heard the new AFTK yet (at the asking price I may never hear it). But the DVD-As and the sector releases left a lot to be desired. For me, Moving Pictures is in dire need of the Steven Wilson treatment.

My all time worst candidates are Grand Funk's quad release of We're An American Band which can only be worsened by John Lennon's Imagine album. Like 4 corner mono. A damn shame.
 
The comments on the Cat Stevens quads hit home pretty hard. I love those albums, but they have very poor surround mixes. Foreigner is probably the best of the bunch, but even that one is pretty underwhelming. Even the Q8 transfers I have (which should provide the best separation) are underwhelming, not to mention the loss of overall fidelity and high tape hiss level one endures when listening to them. But like I said, these are some of my favorite albums, and I find the quad presentation is still a notch better than the stereo when it comes to overall musical enjoyment for me. The best bet for these is a clean SQ decode since there wont be enough loss of separation to really matter, and you have a shot at getting a full fidelity recording.

I'm with you on these. The A&M quad releases are an interesting batch. Some are excellent (Carpenters, Quincy Jones, Wakeman), others seem to be partially or totally faked (Herb Alpert, Tony Orlando & Dawn, Ozark Mountain Daredevils, Cat Stevens).

Some of the older Cat Stevens songs are probably lacking in multis, but I still think they could have done a better job on these mixes. They managed to mix Jim Croce- another "man with a guitar" act- for quad with impressive separation. They could've least thrown the backing vocals in the rears.

After reading the comments on the Steely Dan quads, I guess I need to have another listen. My recollection is that they were also pretty underwhelming with Can't Buy a Thrill somewhat better than the others. Its hard to believe the same band that gave us those 70's quads also gave us Gaucho, Two Against Nature, Everything Must Go, and a collection of great Fagen solo albums. Maybe that's the result of having no input from the band on the quad releases.

I feel like I'm always on the defensive regarding these- take my word for it, CBAT and Countdown really are excellent quad mixes. I think it's the alternate takes versus the stereo that upset a lot of people. Would modern ES mixes of these be better? Probably, but unfortunately that ship has sailed and ultimately I much prefer these two early albums to the later ones you mentioned (which are also great).

For me, Moving Pictures is in dire need of the Steven Wilson treatment.

YES.

For that one I would actually spring for an $100+ box set.

My all time worst candidates are Grand Funk's quad release of We're An American Band which can only be worsened by John Lennon's Imagine album. Like 4 corner mono. A damn shame.

Forgot about those (maybe on purpose). It's worth noting that both quad follow-ups- Grand Funk's "Shinin' On" and Lennon's "Walls & Bridges" - are considerable improvements mix-wise though.
 
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It's worth noting that both quad follow-ups- Grand Funk's "Shinin' On" and Lennon's "Walls & Bridges" - are considerable improvements mix-wise though.

Agreed. Walls & Bridges is relatively decent. Shinin' On is certainly a better effort mix wise, but I just cant get into the content.
 
I'm with you on these. The A&M quad releases are an interesting batch. Some are excellent (Carpenters, Quincy Jones, Wakeman), others seem to be partially or totally faked (Herb Alpert, Captain & Tennile, Ozark Mountain Daredevils, Cat Stevens).

which tracks on The Captain & Tennille Quad are faked?
 
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