Re: DVD-A Semantics

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scratch17

Active Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2009
Messages
63
Which brings me to a serious question - wtf is "Lucky Man" doing on the Warner/Rhino BSS DVDA anyway?
It's from ELP, not BSS.....

BSS was one of the very first DVDA releases. It was at a time when Warner was actually trying to promote the format. It was included on the disc as a 'bonus track'.

Warner may have been trying to show that the new format had room for extras, to justify premium pricing. It was as if the record companies were trying to say, "We expect you to pay a premium for this, so we have added value to your purchase. You can now justify paying $30 for an album you could buy for $15 in an older format."

Remember that initially DVDA had some pretension as to being a multimedia format. There was often video tracks added. Many discs had photo arrays. Producers could add historical data about the artist or the making of the album. In fact, this has been seen as one of the reasons that the format failed. In trying to be all things to all producers, a menu system was required. This, in turn, required a video monitor. Many consumers saw DVDA as a music format and didn't want the extras, or the video requirement. Also, the menu system user interface rules were almost non-existent, resulting in confusion by users, and even errors by producers so egregious that some discs wouldn't play on certain hardware.

Warner may also have used the 'bonus track' as a tease... "If you buy this title, we may release this other title."

Steven.
 
BSS was one of the very first DVDA releases. It was at a time when Warner was actually trying to promote the format. It was included on the disc as a 'bonus track'.

Warner may have been trying to show that the new format had room for extras, to justify premium pricing. It was as if the record companies were trying to say, "We expect you to pay a premium for this, so we have added value to your purchase. You can now justify paying $30 for an album you could buy for $15 in an older format."

Remember that initially DVDA had some pretension as to being a multimedia format. There was often video tracks added. Many discs had photo arrays. Producers could add historical data about the artist or the making of the album. In fact, this has been seen as one of the reasons that the format failed. In trying to be all things to all producers, a menu system was required. This, in turn, required a video monitor. Many consumers saw DVDA as a music format and didn't want the extras, or the video requirement. Also, the menu system user interface rules were almost non-existent, resulting in confusion by users, and even errors by producers so egregious that some discs wouldn't play on certain hardware.

Warner may also have used the 'bonus track' as a tease... "If you buy this title, we may release this other title."

Steven.

Hi Steven.

I know how DVD-A/V works, as I make the things. I've seen those arguments before and am not really impressed by them at all. It's a simple enough matter to make the disc autoplay if the label or the artist want it to, with the menu system only happening after playback of the main album or on pressing Top Menu.
I'm also not convinced by the claims it "failed" because of putting too much on the discs - this is a strange claim. It asks me to believe people did not buy them because there was too much content on the discs for them to bother with? It's a classic case of you are damned if you do & damned if you do not - people expect DVD to have visual content, and believe me it is far simpler to make a straight disc with a single stream that has no graphics at all - I can knock one of these up in about 30 minutes.

All discs we create default to the main menu with the PLAY button selected, so no screens are needed if you do not want them. Again, I can assure you that if discs had been set up with just the audio only, there would have been many, many more complaints along the lines of "why has this DVD got no video or visuals on it"?

The real reason it did not take off properly was the abysmal lack of anything remotely resembling promotion. I still remember back in 2004 when first trying to buy discs in London, back when we had record stores on Oxford Street like Tower Records, Virgin Megastore & HMV that we were looked at as if we had 2 heads when asking what DVD-A they carried.
Virgin (or was it HMV - it was 8 years ago now & I cannot remember too clearly) told us the following
Store Manager said:
yes, we do have some but they are upstairs in the stock room as they do not fit in the CD racks or the DVD racks so we do not know where to put them. Also, we have absolutely nothing in the way of promotional material or information about them, so they will be sent back

It was 2 things that caused problems.
1 - the abysmal lack of anything even remotely resembling promotion from the labels. Nobody will buy anything if it is either not on the shelves, or there is no awareness of the form.
2 - Lawyers raised legal issues about the royalties, the claim running along the lines of "this has 3 streams, so that is 3 lots of royalties" which is utter bollocks.
Artist royaltis are not by the mix, but by the record sales - per unit. Yet a lot of labels ran scared over getting tied up in expensive legal action, and promptly bailed.
It's apparently why Sony shut down their SACD department and let everyone go, and why they stopped doing hybrids.

Summary.
1 - All claims of DVD-A/V failure being due to having too much content on them is pure BS and excuses from labels. If this were true, why did SACD not sell? No video there - it's not in the specs at all, and this has likewise been claimed as a reason it did not do well. They cannot have it both ways.
2 - All lawyers should be taken out and shot.

Sorry, but this nonsense really gets to me. I suspect personally that what happened was ridiculous estimates were made as to what sales should be, and when they fell short of this the "logic", if you can call it that, went something like this (and I could name a label whose accountants used this argument to get them shut down too)
"We predicted sales of £500,000 on this title, and in reality it only did £100,000 worth of business so we lost £400,000". This happens because of the stupid way modern accounting gets done with revenue estimates being taken as what to expect, so anything less is a loss. Madness.
Another label I could name said "although we are making a profit on these titles, we are not making sufficient profit to justify carrying inventory" - in short, we wanted more so screw it.

What they should have realised - and would have realised if they bothered to do their homework, is that surround & high resolution are niche formats, yet the people who do buy them all tend to be those who can afford to indugle in their hobby. It's a niche market, and should have been handled as such. The problem is that the labels these days are generally run by people with no understanding of or love for music, and run on the greengrocer model rather than the venture capital model. The greengrocer model says we need to make x percentage profit on everything and those that do not do this will not be sold. A label is a venture capital model though, where 90% never did recoup initial costs - this has always been the case - but the 10% that did subsidized the rest of it & also left a healthy surplus.
The current models mean that very little will ever be done now, as artist support is largely a thing of the past. This is very unhealthy, as most labels are nowadays living on reissuing back catalogue again & again after subjecting them to digital remastering of the most offensive kind and slamming the hell out of tracks in the name of "louder, louder, louder". They are, frankly, clueless. But to blame it all on the end users not wanting bonus content is pure bollocks, as if it really were that simple it would be so much easier - and cheaper - to produce.

Oh - and "Lucky Man" should never have been on BSS as it is not from that album. It's like including "Ashes To Ashes" on an edition of Ziggy Stardust.
 
scratch17
i could agree with complications in regards of menu navigation, but extra material cannot be considered as contributor to failure.
after all pretty same concept the labels begin to use with CDs, adding extra CD in package with extras or even DVDV.
as for menu, i'm really hate all those "first play". when it relatively acceptable for disc with movie (albeit still annoying) but it doesn't
have so often plays, it has NO PLACE on DVDA, period. damn, put just still menu with selection of the streams. maybe delayed for
5-10 secs. "autoplay" for particular stream. that's all.
 
Neil, I agree with everything you said, EXCEPT Lucky Man's addition to BSS. If you feel it (or any bonus tracks for that matter) don't belong there, a simple solution is in order: just stop listening to the disc when the actual album is over!
 
The real reason it did not take off properly was the abysmal lack of anything remotely resembling promotion. I still remember back in 2004 when first trying to buy discs in London, back when we had record stores on Oxford Street like Tower Records, Virgin Megastore & HMV that we were looked at as if we had 2 heads when asking what DVD-A they carried.
Virgin (or was it HMV - it was 8 years ago now & I cannot remember too clearly) told us the following

Originally Posted by Store Manager
yes, we do have some but they are upstairs in the stock room as they do not fit in the CD racks or the DVD racks so we do not know where to put them. Also, we have absolutely nothing in the way of promotional material or information about them, so they will be sent back

HMV on Oxford Street & the Virgin Megastore (only the big one at the junction of Tottenham Ct Rd & Oxford St, not the small one by the Trocadero) definitely both had DVDA & SACD on their shelves back in '04.

I know this for sure because among the titles I got at this point, Queens' "The Game" DVDA & the Elton SACDs were easily the most important to me & I can remember getting them all vividly to this day.

They were such a big deal at the time, even though I didn't have an SACD player and all three of my DVD players at the time (a Toshiba, a Pioneer and the one built into my then new B&O Avant TV) could only do DTS, which at that time was good enough for me.. ignorance is bliss, eh!?

The Peachtree Road SACD I got in HMV Whiteleys, Queensway the day it came out, Monday the 8th of November 2004.
They had one copy in amongst the regular CDs of it but didn't have any of the other Elton SACDs in stock that day and they only ever had the Honky Chateau SACD there subsequently - again just one copy, which came much later.

I got the other Elton SACDs & The Game DVDA in HMV Oxford St as a Xmas present to myself (aren't they always the best ones!?) at the end of '04, where they were sold as imports. HMV had 2 or 3 copies of each of the Elton SACDs, with heftily marked up price tags to match. They had one copy of The Game on DVDA, which was just sitting on the top of the rack near the Queen section.

The GYBR SACD Deluxe Edition I got for Xmas '03. I saw it (on display, no less!) in the doorway of the "Our Price" at Notting Hill Gate. My partner at the time expressed dismay at what to get me as a Xmas present, so I instructed them to go there and get it for me, as it was just what I wanted!

The GYBR DVDA I got much later, in the summer of '05, from Virgin Megastore Oxford Street, again as an Import, where it was (yet again) the lone copy, this time just in the white wire racks with all the other Elton CDs. Virgin also had all the Elton SACDs in the rack at the time, just stuck in with their other CDs, together with a fairly lacklustre selection of DVDAs, which again were just bunged in with their relevant artists.

As you rightly say, no promotion, no special section, no fanfare, nothing, from either of them.

By that point (mid-late 2005) HMV Oxford St had created a (small) separate DVDA section, over by the music videos. SACDs were still just willy-nilly in with the redbook, unless they were jazz or classical titles, in which case they were downstairs in their relevant departments, just scattered in with the redbook stuff there.

It must have been Tower at Piccadilly Circus that didn't have anywhere to put the DVDAs back then, Neil.
Tower never had any Hi-Res on their shelves and whenever I asked assistants about DVDA/SACDs, they always looked at me blankly. They did carry a good number of MFSL CDs however (though very highly marked up) but I never got any joy from them at all on the DVDA/SACD front.
 
Hi Steven.

I know how DVD-A/V works, as I make the things. I've seen those arguments before and am not really impressed by them at all. It's a simple enough matter to make the disc autoplay if the label or the artist want it to, with the menu system only happening after playback of the main album or on pressing Top Menu.

I have been making my own DVD-A discs for about 8 years now also. You can rip hi-rez DVD-A tracks if you know the lengthy procedure although some recent releases can be ripped to disc images (like ITCOTCK).
I purchased my first DVD-Audio player as soon as the format was released only because BSS was released (2001). Very soon after I installed a DVD-Audio player in both of my cars. The car players played the disc automatically without having to navigate any menus with a video screen. The current DVD-A players I have in my cars have a small video screen in the head unit and I have to use a remote to play the discs just as you would on your home system. The only universal player I am aware of is made by Bose and only available in a certain Ferrari and one other exotic car. That was about 4-5 years ago and Bose has no plans for making it for aftermarket installations. I have pestered Oppo Digital for a couple of years about making a universal player for the car and they recently told me they have gotten many requests but told me the market is too saturated with car audio manufacturers. I told the guy, hey look, if Oppo releases a car stereo, it would get SO MUCH coverage that it would sell like crazy.
 
I have been making my own DVD-A discs for about 8 years now also. You can rip hi-rez DVD-A tracks if you know the lengthy procedure although some recent releases can be ripped to disc images (like ITCOTCK).
I purchased my first DVD-Audio player as soon as the format was released only because BSS was released (2001). Very soon after I installed a DVD-Audio player in both of my cars. The car players played the disc automatically without having to navigate any menus with a video screen. The current DVD-A players I have in my cars have a small video screen in the head unit and I have to use a remote to play the discs just as you would on your home system. The only universal player I am aware of is made by Bose and only available in a certain Ferrari and one other exotic car. That was about 4-5 years ago and Bose has no plans for making it for aftermarket installations. I have pestered Oppo Digital for a couple of years about making a universal player for the car and they recently told me they have gotten many requests but told me the market is too saturated with car audio manufacturers. I told the guy, hey look, if Oppo releases a car stereo, it would get SO MUCH coverage that it would sell like crazy.

When Neil says he "makes" DVDA's, he doesn't mean home-made things, he actually creates them for a living, it's his profession!

He is behind many modern surround releases, that QQ members buy and love, including all of the King Crimson 40th Anniversary series of DVDAs.

If you look up Opus Productions, tarkusnj, you can find info on Neil's company, etc. We're privileged to have him here, he is a busy man by the sounds of it but he finds time to post lots of excellent stuff here.
 
When Neil says he "makes" DVDA's, he doesn't mean home-made things, he actually creates them for a living, it's his profession!

He is behind many modern surround releases, that QQ members buy and love, including all of the King Crimson 40th Anniversary series of DVDAs.

I hope he has an alternative profession as the format is virtually dead.
And if these guys have done it professionally, why are there no automated slide shows that synch with the music as I did 8 years ago? I mean, how hard is that to do? The format has that capability. Any DVD-A disc I have ever seen has lyrics or photos and you have to manually advance them. If I can do it, why can't they?
 
do you think automated slideshow is vital necessity?

It is certainly better than having to advance photos and lyrics and if it is a conceptual piece, it makes it much more fascinating. They dropped the ball with DVD-Audio capabilities case closed.
 
I am just an amateur dabbling with this stuff and if these are "professionals", well, it has been pretty weak output. They needed some input from us I guess. There was MUCH more they could have done to enhance the discs that the so called "professionals" produced.
 
tarkusnj
the person, who authored DVDA, just doing, what was asked to do.
he/she cannot use in the work unauthorised by the customer material.
i agree with you, that if there are potential, it should be used. but i more concerned
now with very small amount of DVDA, than with thought about artistic side. seems like
lately we have humble renaissance albeit with lossy format. lets hope it will develop in
full scale revival of DVDA or will transform into BD-Audio
 
I am just an amateur dabbling with this stuff and if these are "professionals", well, it has been pretty weak output. They needed some input from us I guess. There was MUCH more they could have done to enhance the discs that the so called "professionals" produced.


I'm SO glad you are here to tell me how to do my job!!
Such a relief.
 
I hope he has an alternative profession as the format is virtually dead.
And if these guys have done it professionally, why are there no automated slide shows that synch with the music as I did 8 years ago? I mean, how hard is that to do? The format has that capability. Any DVD-A disc I have ever seen has lyrics or photos and you have to manually advance them. If I can do it, why can't they?

if you check out Neil's site as I suggested you will see he has many strings to his bow, beyond "just" DVDA authoring.

you will also see he has a career decades long in engineering concerts and that his company offers many services, one of them being DVDA authoring.
 
I am just an amateur dabbling with this stuff and if these are "professionals", well, it has been pretty weak output. They needed some input from us I guess. There was MUCH more they could have done to enhance the discs that the so called "professionals" produced.

before you go calling anyone's "professionalism" into question, have you seen or do you own any of the titles Neil Wilkes & Opus Productions have listed on their website as having authored?
 
tarkusnj
the person, who authored DVDA, just doing, what was asked to do.
he/she cannot use in the work unauthorised by the customer material.
i agree with you, that if there are potential, it should be used. but i more concerned
now with very small amount of DVDA, than with thought about artistic side. seems like
lately we have humble renaissance albeit with lossy format. lets hope it will develop in
full scale revival of DVDA or will transform into BD-Audio

totally agree with you Otto.

at this point I'd much rather see DVDAs being released (.whether they have superfluous automatic lyric page turning, extra videos, photo galleries - or not!) instead of plain old DVDVs.

not least for the wonderful advantages afforded by DVDA & Lossless quality/MLP.

DVDA is the only format that still (10 years + on) strikes the balance between presenting the very best sound quality available whilst being economically viable for the music labels to produce.

DVDA is still cheaper/easier to replicate than either SACD or blu-ray and is backwards compatible with every DVD player out there, thus defeating the argument for creating DVDV-only, or that "you need a special player for DVDA, so why bother!?".. Yes, you do for the Hi-Res/Lossless but DVDA is a great format that everyone can enjoy in DVDV too.

DVDAs only downside is the lack of CD audio, so all the combi packs that DMG, Warner, etc have released in the years since standalone DVDA titles ceased have addressed that issue.

I really don't see why DVDA hasn't been adopted as THE format for Hi-Res/Surround/Audiophile, it covers all the angles - and more.
 
As a single layer SACD just uses a DVD-5 disc - You could argue that an SACD is just as cheap to manufacture???

They could easily issue single layer SACDs?? Just kidding.... :)
 
As a single layer SACD just uses a DVD-5 disc - You could argue that an SACD is just as cheap to manufacture???

They could easily issue single layer SACDs?? Just kidding.... :)

Sadly, this is not the case as SACD is very expensive to replicate for some reason completely unknown to me.
DVD is a lot cheaper to actually manufacture.
Also, to the label there is absolutely no cost difference except authoring time, as a DVD5/9 is a DVD5/9 no matter what content is actually included.
We could easily get around the CD issue in one of 2 ways:
1 - do a CD/DVD double pack. This gives you both.
2 - include the CD resolution files as FLAC in a data section. Again, as for DVD-A/V over straight DVD-V, there is no cost implication.

@fredblue - DVD-A/V should indeed be the de facto standard for music releases. As you point out, it runs on all DVD players. I have heard it argued by labels that Hybrid SACD is better as it "does not need specialist hardware to run" (Deutsche Gramophon) yet what is an SACD player if not specialised hardware?
 
before you go calling anyone's "professionalism" into question, have you seen or do you own any of the titles Neil Wilkes & Opus Productions have listed on their website as having authored?

My comments were not directed towards Neil, just the music industry concerning their handling and marketing of the DVD-A format. Hey, I would love to see Neil at work! I am always looking to learn from someone with such a background.
 
DVDAs only downside is the lack of CD audio, so all the combi packs that DMG, Warner, etc have released in the years since standalone DVDA titles ceased have addressed that issue.

I really don't see why DVDA hasn't been adopted as THE format for Hi-Res/Surround/Audiophile, it covers all the angles - and more.

it's also compatible with blu ray, PC, Mac and as Neill mentioned above, can deliver any other format (flac, aac, mp3, etc.)
i don't see necessity even in CD. really, how many of you still use raw CD players, since all other players utilize CDs playback.
seems like even all new cars now come without such but DVD or digital media console.

back in 97 or 98 it was very close to this. DVD Forum was ready to declare DVD-Audio as a next carrier for audio which will
phase out and replace CD. only the members of the DVD Forum, who voted against was Sony and Philips and be guess why
 
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