HiRez Poll Emerson Lake & Palmer - EMERSON LAKE AND PALMER [DVD-A/BDA]

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Rate the DVD-A/BDA of Emerson Lake and Palmer - EMERSON LAKE & PALMER


  • Total voters
    107
Hey ssully. Yeah, I did not mean to infer that the Rhino was brickwalled, as you can see that it's not. The Rhino version is, however, bigger/louder in amplitude on the fronts and center, which may be why some are feeling that the sound is "better", and the bass heavier. To me, pulling out the vocal from the mush helps a lot, but others don't have to feel that way. It's nice to have multiple mixes so more folks are happy.
 
Hey ssully. Yeah, I did not mean to infer that the Rhino was brickwalled, as you can see that it's not. The Rhino version is, however, bigger/louder in amplitude on the fronts and center, which may be why some are feeling that the sound is "better", and the bass heavier. To me, pulling out the vocal from the mush helps a lot, but others don't have to feel that way. It's nice to have multiple mixes so more folks are happy.

I have spoken with two other BIG ELP fans and we three have all agreed that the Rhino version is better..period.
I have said that both versions have their strong points but overall, we have agreed that the Rhino version is preferred.
Overall, we three KINGS have agreed that the new releases are not what we expected to hear and also previous Steven Wilson mixes were fantastic but his treatment of the ELP releases are not his best...period.
Any challenges to my opinion are welcome.
 
Hey ssully. Yeah, I did not mean to infer that the Rhino was brickwalled, as you can see that it's not. The Rhino version is, however, bigger/louder in amplitude on the fronts and center, which may be why some are feeling that the sound is "better", and the bass heavier. To me, pulling out the vocal from the mush helps a lot, but others don't have to feel that way. It's nice to have multiple mixes so more folks are happy.


Jon, I'm really glad I saw your post, because it spurred me to finally take a look at the channel content in the old BSS mix, and the new ones.
I hadn't fully realized how isolated the bass was in the center channel of the Kellogg mix...what a boon to bass players (e.g. me)-- I can finally hear for certain what Lake is doing at some points that used to be hopeless to pick out. I see some serious transcribing in my near future...(I kinda *wish* Wilson had done this for Tarkus, for the same selfish reason)

We can see just from the Lucky Man waveforms you posted that the Kellogg LFE has more energy than the Wilson...but in spectral view we see more of how the energy is distributed. One interesting thing I note right off is that the LFE on the BSS has *lots* of energy above 100 Hz-- as does the Wilson, though less so than the Kellogg...so people with sat/sub systems might want to make sure that their setups send as full range LFE as possible to their subs. But the two mixers clearly have different philosophies about LFE use. In fact Wilson's LFE has weak content going way up past 1 kHz (not shown below) ...Kellogg's is pretty sharply cut off a bit before 1.2 kHz. Listened to 'solo', Wilson's LFE contains clear snare/tom drum hits, even cymbals, plus the expected bass drum abd bass guitar -- Kellogg's sounds exclusively like low bass. Also, Kellogg has mixed the bass to the center channel + LFE, while Wilson spreads it across L/R + LFE, with none in the center. (NB these choices can change track to track -- Kellogg's center contains vocals and synth bass and bass guitar, on Karn Evil part 1)

Here's an Audition view of the spectra of both Lucky Men just between 0 and 200 Hz -- and no attempt at level matching . Wilson's on top, Kellogg's on bottom. The 'brighter' the color (eg ranging from black to deep violet though reds to bright yellow) the more energy there is.
lowestcopy.jpg
 
Jon, I'm really glad I saw your post, because it spurred me to finally take a look at the channel content in the old BSS mix, and the new ones.
I hadn't fully realized how isolated the bass was in the center channel of the Kellogg mix...what a boon to bass players (e.g. me)-- I can finally hear for certain what Lake is doing at some points that used to be hopeless to pick out. I see some serious transcribing in my near future...(I kinda *wish* Wilson had done this for Tarkus, for the same selfish reason)

We can see just from the Lucky Man waveforms you posted that the Kellogg LFE has more energy than the Wilson...but in spectral view we see more of how the energy is distributed. One interesting thing I note right off is that the LFE on the BSS has *lots* of energy above 100 Hz-- as does the Wilson, though less so than the Kellogg...so people with sat/sub systems might want to make sure that their setups send as full range LFE as possible to their subs. But the two mixers clearly have different philosophies about LFE use. In fact Wilson's LFE has weak content going way up past 1 kHz (not shown below) ...Kellogg's is pretty sharply cut off a bit before 1.2 kHz. Listened to 'solo', Wilson's LFE contains clear snare/tom drum hits, even cymbals, plus the expected bass drum abd bass guitar -- Kellogg's sounds exclusively like low bass. Also, Kellogg has mixed the bass to the center channel + LFE, while Wilson spreads it across L/R + LFE, with none in the center. (NB these choices can change track to track -- Kellogg's center contains vocals and synth bass and bass guitar, on Karn Evil part 1)

Here's an Audition view of the spectra of both Lucky Men just between 0 and 200 Hz -- and no attempt at level matching . Wilson's on top, Kellogg's on bottom. The 'brighter' the color (eg ranging from black to deep violet though reds to bright yellow) the more energy there is.
lowestcopy.jpg

I am not a sound "spectrum" expert but I listen with my ears. I have many programs to analyze sound and I am very capable of analysis, but it all boils down to what you hear with your ears. What ever happened to the music fans who actually listen to the MUSIC?
 
Just listened to this today. Totally enjoyable even in spite of some missing elements. Still rocks my socks! Voted "10" - 'nuff said.
------- Chris
 
I am not a sound "spectrum" expert but I listen with my ears. I have many programs to analyze sound and I am very capable of analysis, but it all boils down to what you hear with your ears. What ever happened to the music fans who actually listen to the MUSIC?

Oh, stop being so melodramatic. The fans are right here. What makes you believe otherwise?

Analytic tools just help you understand why you are hearing what you hear. They can even lead you to hear things in a different way. No one claims they are necessary for enjoying music. Neither is reading sheet music, but I do that too. It actually sometimes deepens my appreciation of the music
 
Oh, stop being so melodramatic. The fans are right here. What makes you believe otherwise?

Analytic tools just help you understand why you are hearing what you hear. They can even lead you to hear things in a different way. No one claims they are necessary for enjoying music. Neither is reading sheet music, but I do that too. It actually sometimes deepens my appreciation of the music
So I guess I need a lesson on what to listen for.
Sorry for my audio ignorance here, I didn't have these tools to analyze this music 40 years ago.
 
Jon, I'm really glad I saw your post, because it spurred me to finally take a look at the channel content in the old BSS mix, and the new ones.
I hadn't fully realized how isolated the bass was in the center channel of the Kellogg mix...what a boon to bass players (e.g. me)-- I can finally hear for certain what Lake is doing at some points that used to be hopeless to pick out. I see some serious transcribing in my near future...(I kinda *wish* Wilson had done this for Tarkus, for the same selfish reason)

We can see just from the Lucky Man waveforms you posted that the Kellogg LFE has more energy than the Wilson...but in spectral view we see more of how the energy is distributed. One interesting thing I note right off is that the LFE on the BSS has *lots* of energy above 100 Hz-- as does the Wilson, though less so than the Kellogg...so people with sat/sub systems might want to make sure that their setups send as full range LFE as possible to their subs. But the two mixers clearly have different philosophies about LFE use. In fact Wilson's LFE has weak content going way up past 1 kHz (not shown below) ...Kellogg's is pretty sharply cut off a bit before 1.2 kHz. Listened to 'solo', Wilson's LFE contains clear snare/tom drum hits, even cymbals, plus the expected bass drum abd bass guitar -- Kellogg's sounds exclusively like low bass. Also, Kellogg has mixed the bass to the center channel + LFE, while Wilson spreads it across L/R + LFE, with none in the center. (NB these choices can change track to track -- Kellogg's center contains vocals and synth bass and bass guitar, on Karn Evil part 1)

Here's an Audition view of the spectra of both Lucky Men just between 0 and 200 Hz -- and no attempt at level matching . Wilson's on top, Kellogg's on bottom. The 'brighter' the color (eg ranging from black to deep violet though reds to bright yellow) the more energy there is.
lowestcopy.jpg

Interesting and thanks for the spectrum jpg. I agree about listening to the solo bass guitar, I thought it was facinating, although a bit strange for a channel placement. If you really wanted to get tricky, you could extract that channel and merge it into the SW mix for some seriously clean bass in the channel(s) of your choice! :) (Speed and time correction aside)

At any rate, there is nothing wrong with either mix. I prefer the new one mostly because of the vocal isolation and clarity. That's all. Nothing special. When I crank it in the car, it sounds terrific! :)
 
Jon, I'm really glad I saw your post, because it spurred me to finally take a look at the channel content in the old BSS mix, and the new ones.
I hadn't fully realized how isolated the bass was in the center channel of the Kellogg mix...what a boon to bass players (e.g. me)-- I can finally hear for certain what Lake is doing at some points that used to be hopeless to pick out. I see some serious transcribing in my near future...(I kinda *wish* Wilson had done this for Tarkus, for the same selfish reason)

We can see just from the Lucky Man waveforms you posted that the Kellogg LFE has more energy than the Wilson...but in spectral view we see more of how the energy is distributed. One interesting thing I note right off is that the LFE on the BSS has *lots* of energy above 100 Hz-- as does the Wilson, though less so than the Kellogg...so people with sat/sub systems might want to make sure that their setups send as full range LFE as possible to their subs. But the two mixers clearly have different philosophies about LFE use. In fact Wilson's LFE has weak content going way up past 1 kHz (not shown below) ...Kellogg's is pretty sharply cut off a bit before 1.2 kHz. Listened to 'solo', Wilson's LFE contains clear snare/tom drum hits, even cymbals, plus the expected bass drum abd bass guitar -- Kellogg's sounds exclusively like low bass. Also, Kellogg has mixed the bass to the center channel + LFE, while Wilson spreads it across L/R + LFE, with none in the center. (NB these choices can change track to track -- Kellogg's center contains vocals and synth bass and bass guitar, on Karn Evil part 1)
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I have always suspected some sub-harmonic enhancement on the BSS disc which hypes the effect. If done right you wouldn't hear it, just feel, which I like by the way. BSS definitely rattles the windows.
 
Interesting and thanks for the spectrum jpg. I agree about listening to the solo bass guitar, I thought it was facinating, although a bit strange for a channel placement. If you really wanted to get tricky, you could extract that channel and merge it into the SW mix for some seriously clean bass in the channel(s) of your choice! :) (Speed and time correction aside)


Probably not necessary...I've now listened to Tarkus (the track) in Audition multichannel view, muting various channels. Lake's bass is distributed exclusively to front L/R, with some low level rumble in the LFE; having much of the keyboards shifted to surrounds makes the bass stand out really well when just front L or R are played in mono (or together in stereo). Doing that, I've already been able to confirm bass fretboard note choices that were hard to be sure about before.


The exception is 'Manticore' though. The bass guitar sounds way faded back on that section, moreso than on the old 2channel mix. On the 5.1 mix it sounds mostly like a roar of left-hand keyboard playing. I know from live performances (like 'Mar Y Sol', where the bass is high and trebly in the mix) that Lake is playing up a storm in that section, at least in live rendition. But it's hard to tell just what he's playing there in the 5.1 mix.



At any rate, there is nothing wrong with either mix. I prefer the new one mostly because of the vocal isolation and clarity. That's all. Nothing special. When I crank it in the car, it sounds terrific! :)

No one who wants to hear the vocals could complain about these new mixes, that seems sure. I did a little bit of listening to them in isolation (center channel) which was a bit eerie...I felt like I was intruding on the vocal tracking session.
 
... I did a little bit of listening to them in isolation (center channel) which was a bit eerie...I felt like I was intruding on the vocal tracking session.

If you think this is eerie, have a listen to the center channel of Blackest Eyes on the In Absentia DVDA. First time I listened to that I was genuinely scared :)
 
It is your right to dislike the SW mix and to tell us why.

There are many reasons I don't like the SW mixes. I would have to listen to them and write down all the minute/second for each song where I feel there is something missing.
Like I have said, the sonic quality is there, the surround treatment is not. One obvious lowlight is Knife Edge at 2:24. The glissando should have cut through you like the title says KNIFE EDGE and could have cut across the rears, the fronts, or front to rear or whatever but it is barely audible.
I can point out MANY of these shortcomings on both discs, never mind the balls being cut off Keith's hammond overall. Vocals were not done well either in my opinion.
It seems to me, and I am probably wrong, that most bow down to Mr Wilson and he can do nothing wrong. I certainly appreciate his enthusiasm for tackling these surround projects. I know he never saw ELP live in their heyday and doesn't know the energy generated by their live performance .
Have some fun! This is surround sound and should be fun to hear. Everyone should listen to the BSS DVD-A disc and see how much fun that is then maybe you will see the difference.
 
I've got a sneaking suspicion most (if not all) of the contributors to this thread have already heard the DVD-A/SACD Kellogg 5.1 of BSS but I agree if they haven't they should check it out, it's wonderful! :)
 
I've got a sneaking suspicion most (if not all) of the contributors to this thread have already heard the DVD-A/SACD Kellogg 5.1 of BSS but I agree if they haven't they should check it out, it's wonderful! :)

I have and I agree one should listen to it. Alas it's not going to be cheap to acquire as it's become very rare. A quick check shows it's selling for $179 on Amazon!

Makes me think I should try to find a way to backup my copy.
 
I seem to be the only one bashing the new ELP releases and I am getting hammered for that!
I am like that one juror holding out in a murder conviction and it is futile to turn the other 11 to see my point of view but nobody even questions me about why I am disappointed. If they did, I could open their ears to what I am NOT hearing.

You are not totally alone in your feelings. Personally I am holding my tongue until all hope of getting Trilogy or PAAE have faded.
 
SW magic strikes again :>) Thank you Steven, Neil and Sony. Brilliant work my friends. A "10" all the way.
 
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