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View Poll Results: Rate the DVD-A/BDA of King Crimson - LARKS' TONGUES IN ASPIC

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  • 10: Great Surround, Great Fidelity, Great Content

    50 70.42%
  • 9:

    16 22.54%
  • 8:

    5 7.04%
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    0 0%
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    0 0%
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    0 0%
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    0 0%
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    0 0%
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  • 1: Poor Surround, Poor Fidelity, Poor Content

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Thread: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A/BDA]

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    Default King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A/BDA]

    Please post your thoughts and comments on this DVD-A release, available in a CD+DVD-A package, as well as a 15 disc deluxe box set that includes a DVD-A and a Blu-Ray disc!!


    Larks Tounge.jpg
    :-jon

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    What did we expect from Steven Wilson? Perfection? I think we've got it...

    For me its a 10....

    Right from the start you can hear the clarity that the 5.1 mix has over earlier releases of this title. I've had this in a few issues over the years..

    LTIA Part One:
    Love it when Fripp's guitar kicks in at about 3 mins in.. then when it gets heavy you can hear all the parts nicely. Love the interplay between Muir and Bruford - you can listen/hear much better what Muir is doing. Then when it quietens down again Cross' violin sounds better....The the coda finishes off the track - its great to be able to hear the "voices" more distinctly.

    Book of Saturday:
    The most accessible track....
    Wetton's voice and bass in the front sound great with echo...Fripp in rear left... .. Cross violin rear right..nice simple mix.

    Exiles:
    Underrated track - IMHO.
    I love the "bleak soundscapes" - this now has more "warmth & crispness" to it.. nice acoustic guitar in rears...

    Easy Money:
    The "trudging squishy" boot sound across the rears & Muir effects are awesome... my my !!!
    Bruford drums & Wetton bass (nice and clear) in the front...Fripp in rears...

    The Talking Drum:
    Soundscapes in the rears, percussion in front, Then the bass kicks in the front. Guitar Left surround, Bruford cymbals (I presume) in the rears. Slowly builds up... violin mainly in front.......Cranks up a notch with a powerful bass...& violin cutting through. Even at the end of the track listen for the percussion (bongos?) in the front - awesome!!!

    LTIA Part Two:
    Screeching starts part 2, then Fripp centred ... Muir "effects" in the rears.. Screechy omipresent violin solo in the middle of the track. Listen to Wettons bass in this one....

    There seems to be a few bits that are more prominent in the mix.. so the purists among us may have a bit of re-alignment to do to get to like this mix. I really like it though....

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    What Lizard King said. Exactly what I expect from SW - a brilliant revealing of the layers beneath. I own the CD/DVD A version so I can't comment on the Box set, but I am very pleased with all aspects of this package including the very entertaining videos. A 10! My favorite KC done proper!

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    This is possibly one of the easiest 10s that will ever be given! Will spin more versions and then vote proper.

    EDIT: I just couldn't wait; it is about the DVD-A 5.1 after all. 10 all the way and love box packaging too!
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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    I am one of those "lucky" people who have discovered King Crimson through this 40 anniversary series - all I had heard before was part of the debut, nothing more.

    This means that for each new release I get to hear, for me, a brand new album - pretty exciting if you ask me.

    I am a Steven Wilson and highRez 5.1-addict so KC came my way through that channel. I must say that I like all releases so far - not everything is very accessable and I tend to like the more mellow songs better than the more chaotic and heavy ones, though all of it is clearly listenable and interesting. The mellow side of the band is new to me and it is sensational good with strong melodies and atmospheric soundscapes.

    So now I have listened to the "new" King Crimson record LTIA and I think it must be the best sonics and 5.1-mix yet (specially the low end is impressing), which really is saying something... I like it all but absolute adore the 3 song sequence Book of Saturday-Exiles-Easy Money.

    Are all really good KC records out now in this 40 anniversare series, or should I look forward to anything more?

    Almost forget - this did get a 10 from me of course.
    Last edited by uffeolby; 11-06-2012 at 01:08 PM.

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Just finished my first spin...

    I'm going to be a bit lazy and just say "yup" to LizardKing's comments above. Maybe I'll add a few more comments after a couple more plays but this one is an easy 10, just a fantastic job!

    Now, gotta try one of of the other discs in the box before the mrs gets home.....

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Was there any doubt? 10. Of course a 10. There is no one currently producing 5.1 on a retail level that understands how to properly do it the way Steven Wilson does. Every Wilson trademark is present here, with excellent use of both center and corner channels on every single track, perfect clarity, and spot-on separation. The question isn't how he does it. It's why every non-Wilson release doesn't.

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    I've listened to this a few times now and must concur with the previous comments about the brilliance of the 5.1 mix. It is a new album previously unheard by me and although Discipline remains my favourite of the 5.1 King Crimson releases this is now number 2. It really is a treat to hear new music to my ears so long after its original release in such a high quality 5.1 format. I look forward to the future 5.1 releases. Long live King Crimson (and King Steven Wilson)
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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by DKA View Post
    The question isn't how he does it. It's why every non-Wilson release doesn't.
    Yeah all you guys out there who sell yourselves as professional surround engineers. C'mon.

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Absolutely stunning, big thanks to every one involved.

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by wavelength View Post
    Yeah all you guys out there who sell yourselves as professional surround engineers. C'mon.
    Unnecessary.

    For the record, no, I am not a professional, but I've, at this point, worked with hundreds of stereo sources on my own and know what's possible, and not possible, from those sources. Wilson's mixes are universally the only ones that clearly show that the engineer has made the fullest use possible of the multis he's got. No one, right now, uses each individual channel as well as Steve Wilson every time out.

    Even the best recent non-SW mixes, such as Scheiner's Skynyrd mix, hold back on separation a bit too much. There was no reason why I should have been hearing lead vocal in all five channels on that mix. Look at how clearly a center channel dedicated only to lead vocal and some effects, like on pretty much every SW mix, is able to bring the vocal out in the mix.

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by DKA View Post
    Unnecessary.

    For the record, no, I am not a professional, but I've, at this point, worked with hundreds of stereo sources on my own and know what's possible, and not possible, from those sources. Wilson's mixes are universally the only ones that clearly show that the engineer has made the fullest use possible of the multis he's got. No one, right now, uses each individual channel as well as Steve Wilson every time out.

    Even the best recent non-SW mixes, such as Scheiner's Skynyrd mix, hold back on separation a bit too much. There was no reason why I should have been hearing lead vocal in all five channels on that mix. Look at how clearly a center channel dedicated only to lead vocal and some effects, like on pretty much every SW mix, is able to bring the vocal out in the mix.
    I never believed that you are a professional surround engineer and I never had the impression that you were selling yourself as one. My comment was in support of your question as to why the non-Wilson releases don't do it right. It was directed at the professional surround engineers. Sorry for the confusion.

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by wavelength View Post
    I never believed that you are a professional surround engineer and I never had the impression that you were selling yourself as one. My comment was in support of your question as to why the non-Wilson releases don't do it right. It was directed at the professional surround engineers. Sorry for the confusion.
    Everybody is different.
    Every engineer's "version" of "surround" is also different.
    Every album from every artist is different, and therefore the possibilities are endless- SW's mixes try to "redo" the STEREO version passed through his own view of how it should sound in surround, and most of the time he does a great job.
    Of course , I (and many others)would have done things a bit differently for many a song or two, including some SW mixes, but that's why you can't please everyone all the time.
    You just can NOT compare the MCH mixes of "Discipline" to Goldfrapp's "Supernatural", the latter being an extremely unorthodox but groundbreaking mix.
    BUT, as long as we get separation and a nice bubble, I think we're all happy campers.

    I know I had a hell of a time mixing my group's CD in Quad-decisions are so difficult, especially when you are SO NEAR/familiar to the Material itself....
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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by kap'n krunch View Post
    Everybody is different.
    Every engineer's "version" of "surround" is also different.
    Every album from every artist is different, and therefore the possibilities are endless- SW's mixes try to "redo" the STEREO version passed through his own view of how it should sound in surround, and most of the time he does a great job.
    Of course , I (and many others)would have done things a bit differently for many a song or two, including some SW mixes, but that's why you can't please everyone all the time.
    You just can NOT compare the MCH mixes of "Discipline" to Goldfrapp's "Supernatural", the latter being an extremely unorthodox but groundbreaking mix.
    BUT, as long as we get separation and a nice bubble, I think we're all happy campers.

    I know I had a hell of a time mixing my group's CD in Quad-decisions are so difficult, especially when you are SO NEAR/familiar to the Material itself....
    I just can't understand why we get the likes of the Rush surround mixes or Modern Cool (Patricia Barber) to name a couple of examples when we also have such stellar products like the SW mixes. I have Goldfrapp and it's great too. And to add further insult to injury those guys who mixed the Rush and Modern Cool go on and on to tell us how they love surround and how proud they are of their mixes. What planet are these guys living on?

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Hmmm, I think we are derailing this KC LTIA DVD-A thread...but one more.

    I do not think that "Signals" is a bad Surround mix, it's what I stated , it all depends on what that person's definition of "Surround" is.
    Richard's Chyki's definition apparently coincides with Alex Lifeson's, which, does NOT coincide with most member's here (including SW)...
    Oh well...
    to me, the REAL clunkers are the ones where the surrounds are barely used-THOSE drive me BATTY!!!

    and now , we may get our own thread (or not)...
    back to LTIA...can't wait to get the DVD-A this week from Burning Shed....
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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    very interesting to hear everybody's individual take on what makes a "good" surround mix. I wonder if it would be worth creating a sticky thread that everyone can chip into with their feelings (it may have been done before of course)..?

    just the other day quadtrade was saying he and Brad Miller both were of the mind that a surround mix is best achieved in a 4 channel setup, with a phantom centre, as opposed to a 5.1.

    I don't know if I fully agree.. as an effective/sympathetic/intelligent 5.1 mix played back on a system with a carefully integrated centre can be stunning and I can think of a good number of commercially released 5.1 surround mixes with lots of centre channel action going on that are as good as any quad mix at imaging and creating an amazing surround soundfield.

    the trouble is for every use of 5.1 that does/did get it right, there are another bunch that simply don't/didn't!
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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    There are some magic moments in the 5.1 mix. There are a few times when Fripp is spread across the fronts and rears and it just lifts the music up and pushes it forward. A solid 10. I have revered this album for so long, I was afraid that any attempt (even by Steven Wilson) would ruin the mystique. I am glad to report that I was mistaken!
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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by fredblue View Post
    just the other day quadtrade was saying he and Brad Miller both were of the mind that a surround mix is best achieved in a 4 channel setup...
    the trouble is for every use of 5.1 that does/did get it right, there are another bunch that simply don't/didn't!
    My preference leans towards quad as well. The other trouble with a center channel is the choice of the center speaker itself and where it is placed in the room. Too often, the center channel is not matched to the other four speakers; which amplifies any problems in the center mix. This is especially true in an automobile installation; though some are lucky enough to own an automobile sound system designed with 5.1 music in mind.

    And then (to pull us off topic even further) there's the .1 or sub-woofer channel. A couple years back I was strongly defending the .1 channel and got into a debate with Kal Rubinson on this board. In the end, I lost the debate and I'm now convinced it is not necessary and even introduces trouble. If you have full range speakers, let the lows come from all 4 (or 5) of them. If you don't, buy a system with a bass manager or add a bass manager to your system. This again reduces the chance for failure due to speaker location or mix engineer choices.

    [back on topic] Larks' Tongue get's a tenner from me.

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    you know me..when I like something, I go for the TEN!!!!
    This one should "go up to 'leven"

    Dynamics galore, pannings that are well worth it and some of the most PRISTINE sound from a tape that is almost 40 years old.

    Again, kudos to everyone involved, of course , the SW, the Frippster and the kitchen sink....

    Listened to it once (1st time) last night-it wazs stuck in my mailbox when I came home- , in spite of cutting into my sleep time -I always listen with my eyes closed to get the FULL impact...and I had to RUN for the volume knob a few times!!!

    One thing , though, since the material does not ask for it, the pannings are less frequent at the end of the disc...
    BUT,
    -I heard a LOT of stuff I had NEVER heard before
    -the clarity was A-MA-ZIIIING (JW's bass and DC violin especially-you could hear the air!!!)
    -the "bubble" was perfect in every sense..

    Now , this makes me want to win the lottery so I can buy a house with a sound proof room so I can hear it in all is dynamic glory....

    Great job , guys...
    now, on to the rest (I'm really pissed off that TCOL is not getting the Surround treatment...but that's another thread...yeah yeah , I know, bitch bitch , mama!!!)

    (PS...who DARED give this a NINE???? I'd BAN this person..ok, I'm joking, but at least I'd bitch slap him (figuratively)...but seriously.. I'd strip him of ALL THE SURROUND DISCS he has...HEATHEN!!!!!)
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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    FYI - Currently the Hi-rez poll score for this would be 9.85... That would put it in second pace behind Dark Side of the Moon!

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by kap'n krunch View Post
    (PS...who DARED give this a NINE???? I'd BAN this person..ok, I'm joking, but at least I'd bitch slap him (figuratively)...but seriously.. I'd strip him of ALL THE SURROUND DISCS he has...HEATHEN!!!!!)
    I was sorely tempted to vote an 8 or maybe even a 7 just to see what you would do. Okay, I'm joking too. Aharr Mateys! Thems what die will be the lucky ones!

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by fredblue View Post
    very interesting to hear everybody's individual take on what makes a "good" surround mix. I wonder if it would be worth creating a sticky thread that everyone can chip into with their feelings (it may have been done before of course)..?

    just the other day quadtrade was saying he and Brad Miller both were of the mind that a surround mix is best achieved in a 4 channel setup, with a phantom centre, as opposed to a 5.1.

    I don't know if I fully agree.. as an effective/sympathetic/intelligent 5.1 mix played back on a system with a carefully integrated centre can be stunning and I can think of a good number of commercially released 5.1 surround mixes with lots of centre channel action going on that are as good as any quad mix at imaging and creating an amazing surround soundfield.

    the trouble is for every use of 5.1 that does/did get it right, there are another bunch that simply don't/didn't!
    I have to disagree here as well, Fred (and by this I mean disagree with Quadtrade & Brad)- there are valid reasons for a true centre channel as opposed to a Phantom one.
    The main one, for me, is that it anchors the mix if done properly - phantom centre can sort of twist or dislocate the soundfield if you listen carefully, losing the main anchor point - and a dedicated centre channel gets around this as well as leaves you with much more flexibility & room.
    Some things are best in phantom, but not all - and I honestly believe (note the word "believe" as this is just an opinion of mine) that any 5.1 mixer who avoids the centre channel just does not know how to use it properly.....
    Oh well, whatever - nevermind.

  28. #23
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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    i agree with Neil. please keep in mind, since 5 channel more than twice of what is offered by the stereo format,
    mixer has lots of room to play around with an elements of the mix. in fact 5 channel not really limited to only 5
    spots around the listener (LF-C-RF-RS-LS) but unlike stereo, has ability to pan the sound in the between those
    main 5 spots, such like to place particular moments of the mix let's say in between RF-RS, where the sound doesn't
    come directly from phisical speaker but sort of like phantom on right side of listeners in centre between those 2 speakers.
    as for center channel, i really can't see any issues as long as it was well balanced and integrated with rest of the sound's
    panorama. after all it is not neccesary to have sound in center on the constant basis. it can be used as channel for sporadic
    elements, such like some led instruments or sound effects.

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by wavelength View Post
    I never believed that you are a professional surround engineer and I never had the impression that you were selling yourself as one. My comment was in support of your question as to why the non-Wilson releases don't do it right. It was directed at the professional surround engineers. Sorry for the confusion.
    Ah. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Was out of town for a few days, so I just got to this now.

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    Default Re: King Crimson - Larks' Tongue in Aspic [DVD-A]

    Quote Originally Posted by neil wilkes View Post
    The main one, for me, is that it anchors the mix if done properly - phantom centre can sort of twist or dislocate the soundfield if you listen carefully, losing the main anchor point - and a dedicated centre channel gets around this as well as leaves you with much more flexibility & room.

    Some things are best in phantom, but not all - and I honestly believe (note the word "believe" as this is just an opinion of mine) that any 5.1 mixer who avoids the centre channel just does not know how to use it properly.....
    Couldn't have said it any better.

    I think Wilson's mixes get it right because he makes that center channel such a vital part of the mix. Utilizing that center exclusively for vocal and some effects really allows for a mix that breathes and allows for additional elements to shine in those channels. I will never understand how, having multis in hand, a professional mixer chooses to do things such as place lead vocal in all five channels.

    I didn't grow up with quad. I do not prefer it to either modern 5.1 or what I can do myself. I'm not a fan in the least of the idea of a phantom center. The center channel is there. Use it to the best of your ability.

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