Lorr Kramer on the Smyth Realiser Surround Headphone System

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bmoura

bmoura

2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Since 2002/2003
Joined
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FYI, one of the recent editions of the Home Theater Geeks podcasts on the TWIT network features Lorr Kramer, formerly of DTS and now VP at Smyth Research.

Stephen Smyth and his brother Michael are the folks behind the invention of DTS for theater and home use - and more recently the Smyth Realiser which simulates 5.1 or 7.1 Surround Sound over high quality headphones.

If you'd like to learn more, drop by the Video Podcast at http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/136 and the Smyth Research web site at http://smyth-research.com/index.html

Pretty interesting product - and video !
 
These guys were always ahead of the curve, and Lorr is a very nice man. Worked with him at DTS many times. Symth guys were beyond bright and i bet this thing is wonderful. But, They have a issue, trying to make way too much at once. That was always the issue at DTS. They are trying to sell math. You are not selling a lot of these at over 3 grand, and the parts do not cost that much. Dump the Stax phones. Look at Blu ray players. Wildly expensive now dirt cheap. They want to make the dough, get this down to hundreds and you will sell some. Market it to the right folks guys, don't start with the audiophiles, you may never get to the masses.
If we want surround to be wildly popular, get these guys to market a 4 channel mic you can plug in your video recorder so folks get the idea of soundfields. You could sell a million of those and the matrix math would be in the same vein.

Brad was doing this ages ago.
here was one i have held in my hand, in fact i know where one is. This would be a better way to make $ I would not have to wear headphones which i cant stand anymore. Then make a small version to plug on the end of a camcorder. Pretty simular math. Gotta call Lorr and get these guys down a smart path!!
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/re_p_files_a_quadaraphonic_microphone_development/
 
I agree with Tad that Brad Miller and Lou Dorren were behind some amazing Surround Sound inventions in the '70s. The work they did set the stage for the Surround Sound that we continue to enjoy today.

On the Smyth Realiser, the video interview with Lorr (linked above) notes that their # 1 market for the Realiser is actually Recording Professionals (Musicians, Recording Engineers, etc.) who use it to mix in 7.1 or 5.1 surround without renting expensive studio time. You can literally duplicate, or make a copy, of a high quality Surround Sound listening environment and then play it back at your home through high quality headphones like ones from Stax, HiFi Man, etc.

I first heard about the product from top recording engineers working on SACD and DVDA projects who raved about the product and hoped the Smyth Realiser would find its way to audiophiles and ultimately the home market and help popularize surround back when I was writing for High Fidelity Review. While things didn't work out that way, I can say that it is the only system I've ever heard that delivers believable 7.1 Surround Sound over Stereo Headphones. It is light years ahead of other systems that claim to do this but do not deliver.

I use the Smyth Realiser at home to playback 7.1 and 5.1 Surround Sound music and movies in a room without speakers - using personal Surround Measurements made at AIX Records and Mi Casa Recording Studios in the Los Angeles area. I'd encourage QQ members who are near a Smyth dealer (see http://smyth-research.com/dealers.html), or better yet near Smyth Research in Camarillio, CA (L.A. area) to audition the system. Smyth can also arrange for you to get Personal Surround Measurements at these studios for a fee.

It may be pricey, but it is truly amazing! And the folks on this forum will immediately appreciate what it brings to the Surround Sound party.
 
Brian,
then you are telling me you are using headphones? All the time? Could never do that ,Yikes that would be horrible.
 
Not all the time. Just when I am in the room without speakers.
You'd be surprised at how well the Smyth system works in that setup.

It also has buttons on the remote that lets you "solo" what's in each channel.

Funny to think about that - since you're playing the music or movie back through two channel headphones.
But the effect is so real that you forget there aren't 8 real speakers in the room.
 
What do you mean the room without speakers, are you traveling thru the house without wires. If so how far can you travel. The only way this thing would be viable is to be a wireless unit, could wander anywhere in surround. All that stuff geared towards pros, sell units in hundreds, they gotta get this down to hundreds to sell thousands.
 
quadtrade said:
What do you mean the room without speakers, are you traveling thru the house without wires. If so how far can you travel. The only way this thing would be viable is to be a wireless unit, could wander anywhere in surround. All that stuff geared towards pros, sell units in hundreds, they gotta get this down to hundreds to sell thousands.
Click to expand...

My sentiments exactly. The problem with high-end audio is that some companies' least expensive products are still, for many of us, too absurdly expensive, and doomed to niche status, which isn't really want you want if you're trying to put MC audio across to anyone other than us audiophiles. At the same time, not a good idea to offer crap, either. I always had a problem with Koss headphones because the design and workmanship were, IMO, too shoddy and fragile for everyday use, and not of a quality needed for serious listening.

As for myself, to this day I use cans only if I need to listen to something specific on an album--say, to get a better read on a stereo mix, or determine if something is rechanneled or flat monaural on an otherwise stereo Lp. I also use them late at night when my wife's asleep, for the obvious reasons...;) But generally I prefer the big room and the big speakers because for me, dynamic range and room ambiance is where it's at, and headphones, while they can give you the former in isolation, can in no way replicate sound in the way loudspeakers can, give you that 'oomph' and intensity. Yeah, you can get plenty of detail through cans, but music is also about subtlety and power, and I need a room full of sound for that.

These phones do sound as if they have great potential, but the price has to come down--radically. I just don't have that kind of scratch to throw around, and even if I did, that still leaves a lot of listeners who could enjoy them out in the cold.

ED :)
 
I've used cans in the studio, for obvious reasons. I was forced to listen through them late at night in apartments, when my kids were small and asleep, or when living with parents, that I prefer not to listen to them at all.

Yes, the cost of most esoteric gear has become ridiculous. Evidently, high end manufacturers figure that they'll sell half as many if the charge twenty times as much, and therefore make larger profits. It's a cash grab.
 
Right.

Listening to Surround when the rest of the family is asleep is certainly one of the key applications of the Smyth Realiser.
Another is bringing the recording studio home for a musician or recording professional.

For audiophiles, creating a copy of a 7.1 or 5.1 Surround Sound system that you could never afford for Surround playback is the main attraction.
In my case, I can listen to surround with stereo headphones using the copy of AIX Studios in LA. I'll never have an audio setup like that at home! :)
 
Ed Bishop said:
As for myself, to this day I use cans only if I need to listen to something specific on an album--say, to get a better read on a stereo mix, or determine if something is rechanneled or flat monaural on an otherwise stereo Lp. I also use them late at night when my wife's asleep, for the obvious reasons...;) But generally I prefer the big room and the big speakers because for me, dynamic range and room ambiance is where it's at, and headphones, while they can give you the former in isolation, can in no way replicate sound in the way loudspeakers can, give you that 'oomph' and intensity.
Click to expand...
Actually, these "can replicate sound in the way loudspeakers can," especially if you supplement them with a real subwoofer. I generally hate headphone listening some of the same reasons that you do but this system (not the headphones) are entirely different. See my experience with them here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-45
 
Kal Rubinson said:
Actually, these "can replicate sound in the way loudspeakers can," especially if you supplement them with a real subwoofer. I generally hate headphone listening some of the same reasons that you do but this system (not the headphones) are entirely different. See my experience with them here: http://www.stereophile.com/content/music-round-45
Click to expand...

Kal is right - this system is very different than standard headphone listening. But you have to hear the Realiser to believe it.

Also, I'd recommend checking out Kal's review of the system. Very well written and informative.
If Kal is able to get Bob Ludwig to allow for "PRIR" measurements at his mastering studio in Surround, I'd like to get in on that as well !

Ditto for Widescreen Review's Gary Reber who apparently did a personal Surround PRIR at Skywalker Studios. Very cool....
 
bmoura said:
Right.

Listening to Surround when the rest of the family is asleep is certainly one of the key applications of the Smyth Realiser.
Another is bringing the recording studio home for a musician or recording professional.

For audiophiles, creating a copy of a 7.1 or 5.1 Surround Sound system that you could never afford for Surround playback is the main attraction.
In my case, I can listen to surround with stereo headphones using the copy of AIX Studios in LA. I'll never have an audio setup like that at home! :)
Click to expand...

I have three reasons to want the Smyth Realizer.

1. I have an Apogee ribbon based audio system / home theater. I really love the sound quality of my speakers, but I want more! From my perspective the Smyth Realizer will let me 'record' other people's speakers.

I'd love to be able to instantly switch to electrostatic or dynamic speakers. My best friend here in Dallas has some Dunlavy SC-III's. Once I have a Realizer, I'll have a pair of them too!

Which brings up a point not mentioned in this thread. A system you are adding need not have more than two speakers. According to Smyth, the user can take measurements of a pair of speakers and create a surround setup as if you'd measured four, five or seven of the speakers. So my buddy will be able to get a pretty good idea of what a system made up of 5 of his SC-III's would sound like.

2. I have a decent room for my audio/theater setup. I know I will not live here for more than a few more years. I expect to be living in much smaller quarters, and I know I'll have to sell my system. I simply will not have the space or the ability to play music or movies at realistic levels.

In the last two weeks I've spent $5k on a new Marantz AV-8801/MM-8077, and then blew another $700 on two Ekornes Stressless chairs for my listening room. So I have about $4K to pay off on the gold card right now.

But as soon as I've paid that off, I'm heading to L.A. to buy a Realizer. And unless the fee is astronomical, I want to get PIRs at AIX studios.

I wanted to get the upgraded electronics for my Apogee speakers before I get the Realizer. That way, when I have to sell my speakers, I'll have saved them inside my Realizer, driven by excellent electronics.

So even if I end up in a motor home, I'll still have a really good audio system, home theater setup, and a studio with the ability to do surround sound mixing.

3. I have a project studio in a 15 by 12 foot room. It is way too cramped. It's a hobby, but one that I seriously enjoy. I have a 5.1 setup of older model Event monitors, but they are positioned poorly for surround monitoring due to space constraints. The room's acoustics also stink, and I have no room for acoustical treatment. I'd love to be able to sell the center and rear monitors and regain the space they take up. As Brian mentions above, I'd be in monitoring heaven with a Realizer and a set of PIRs from AIX's studio.

I do have a question for Brian or Kal. Do either of you know if the Realizer can do a PIR with a 7.1 setup using wide or height surrounds, or is it limited to standard surround back positioning?

Steven Kastner.
 
Yikes! $3K+. Those are some bad ass headphones! :)

Nice write up Kal.
 
JonUrban said:
Yikes! $3K+. Those are some bad ass headphones! :)

Nice write up Kal.
Click to expand...

Actually the Realiser is a processor that converts the Stereo, 5.1, 7.1 audio into a form that can be played back over Stereo Headphones.
So it is used with headphones vs. being a headphone.
 
scratch17 said:
I have three reasons to want the Smyth Realizer.

1. I have an Apogee ribbon based audio system / home theater. I really love the sound quality of my speakers, but I want more! From my perspective the Smyth Realizer will let me 'record' other people's speakers.

I'd love to be able to instantly switch to electrostatic or dynamic speakers. My best friend here in Dallas has some Dunlavy SC-III's. Once I have a Realizer, I'll have a pair of them too!

Which brings up a point not mentioned in this thread. A system you are adding need not have more than two speakers. According to Smyth, the user can take measurements of a pair of speakers and create a surround setup as if you'd measured four, five or seven of the speakers. So my buddy will be able to get a pretty good idea of what a system made up of 5 of his SC-III's would sound like.

2. I have a decent room for my audio/theater setup. I know I will not live here for more than a few more years. I expect to be living in much smaller quarters, and I know I'll have to sell my system. I simply will not have the space or the ability to play music or movies at realistic levels.

In the last two weeks I've spent $5k on a new Marantz AV-8801/MM-8077, and then blew another $700 on two Ekornes Stressless chairs for my listening room. So I have about $4K to pay off on the gold card right now.

But as soon as I've paid that off, I'm heading to L.A. to buy a Realizer. And unless the fee is astronomical, I want to get PIRs at AIX studios.

I wanted to get the upgraded electronics for my Apogee speakers before I get the Realizer. That way, when I have to sell my speakers, I'll have saved them inside my Realizer, driven by excellent electronics.

So even if I end up in a motor home, I'll still have a really good audio system, home theater setup, and a studio with the ability to do surround sound mixing.

3. I have a project studio in a 15 by 12 foot room. It is way too cramped. It's a hobby, but one that I seriously enjoy. I have a 5.1 setup of older model Event monitors, but they are positioned poorly for surround monitoring due to space constraints. The room's acoustics also stink, and I have no room for acoustical treatment. I'd love to be able to sell the center and rear monitors and regain the space they take up. As Brian mentions above, I'd be in monitoring heaven with a Realizer and a set of PIRs from AIX's studio.

I do have a question for Brian or Kal. Do either of you know if the Realizer can do a PIR with a 7.1 setup using wide or height surrounds, or is it limited to standard surround back positioning?

Steven Kastner.
Click to expand...

You're right. The Smyth Realiser does let you duplicate high end speakers into a 5.1 or 7.1 PRIR. Haven't tried that myself, but the possibilities are intriguing.

The trip to L.A. is worth it on many levels. Lorr can help with your initial Headphone EQ measurements (HPEQ) as well as the recording studio measurements (PRIR)
for your system. There is a cost for all of this, but it's well worth it in my experience.

The PRIRs for AIX are essential with the Realiser. I had both 5.1 and 7.1 ones done when I was down in L.A. I also went to Mi Casa in Hollywood where many DVDs and
Blu-Ray discs are mastered for another set. Haven't been to the Egyptian Theater yet - that may be in a future trip.

Once you're all dialed in and set, it's an amazing setup.
 
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