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Thread: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

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    Dreaming-Spires oxforddickie's Avatar
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    Default Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    I've decided to start this thread in response to the original thread being split into two, but leaving a hole.

    This thread is for technical questions regarding the units QS and SQ decoding abilities only
    Last edited by oxforddickie; 01-18-2013 at 11:26 PM.
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    700 Club - QQ All Star chucky3042's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Thanks Richard

    Great idea

    Regards

    Chucky

    Quote Originally Posted by oxforddickie View Post
    I've decided to start this thread in response to the original thread being split into two, but leaving a hole.

    This thread is for technical questions regarding the units QS and SQ decoding abilities only

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Hi All

    Whilst I fully recognize a vectorscope is not a true quantitative test, it can be very useful in visually defining what is heard between comparative systems. I recently had the pleasure of visiting "Rustyandi" at his home where we compared many systems using Ron's Vectorscope. Below are links to Youtube channels where we directly compare The INVOLVE Surround Master against stereo, Dolby PL2, SRS circle surround, ambisonics and Tate-SQ.

    Of the three music pieces I find the Tracy Chapman track the most interesting as it is mostly front center with a small amount of studio ambiance in the background. Of all the systems I believe INVOLVE did by far the best job - keeping the stereo feel but just slight ambiance in the rear. Whilst Tate-SQ in general performed well you could hear a lot of frontal information being forced to the rear and sides. When you look at the Vectorscope you can see this.

    We will be publishing a few more of these in the next few days comparing things like decoding Dolby PL2 and the comparison with discrete.

    Enjoy

    Saturday Night
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-VJaKRSmzo

    Tracey Chapman
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=991HJPvC-VE

    Ridiculous
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F15sA0qHgOI

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Your missing my point completely, and continue to talk about it's abilities to create fake surround.

    My only point of interest in this unit is it's ability to correctly decode QS. Add to that the idea an engine designed to decode QS is to be used to decode SQ. The two systems are as incompatible as petrol & deisel, so i'm interested in how accurate it can do the job.

    I work on a purely technical level, which is what is needed to accurately decode these matrix's.

    By the way, i'm interested how my files are doing, i have new decodeing processes for both QS and SQ that are still out with people on test, and so far it's the best yet!
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Hi Richard

    Perhaps I have put this in the wrong thread as my interests are much broader than QS but are more related to our INVOLVES performance with its own INVOLVE encode format, PL2, stereo etc. Our interest is really the general consumer market - not just the QS (very specialist market).

    I will move this to another thread.

    With a bit of luck we might get to your files this week, its been a very busy start of the year.

    Regards

    Charlie

    Quote Originally Posted by oxforddickie View Post
    Your missing my point completely, and continue to talk about it's abilities to create fake surround.

    My only point of interest in this unit is it's ability to correctly decode QS. Add to that the idea an engine designed to decode QS is to be used to decode SQ. The two systems are as incompatible as petrol & deisel, so i'm interested in how accurate it can do the job.

    I work on a purely technical level, which is what is needed to accurately decode these matrix's.

    By the way, i'm interested how my files are doing, i have new decodeing processes for both QS and SQ that are still out with people on test, and so far it's the best yet!

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    I hope you don't mind me bringing these subjects up, but what has tobe remembered is that although the unit may be more consumer based, people here will have the possibility of QS/SQ decoding higher on their wants list
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    I like the idea of vectorscope comparisons, but since "This thread is for technical questions regarding the units QS and SQ decoding abilities only " , I'd like to see comparisons of QS-to-QS. For example, a QS test-tone record played through a QSD-1 compared to the same recording through the Surround Master. While hearing it would be better, at least one could see that the amplitude of each channel changes essentially the same with both decoders (both decoders place LR in LR, etc.). I know it is a crude comparison but it seems to get closer to something more technical than "sounds better".

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Do you have a QSD-1 and if so, would you be able to record the output of it for comparison. I've already sent some tones to them for me to check some things regardsing the decode properties of their unit
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    I'd like to see waveforms of a good QS encoded source (e.g. the test tones as mentioned above) for the following:

    Surround Master
    QSD-1
    QS-Final scripts

    Now that would be interesting...

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    I've created new QS (and SQ) test tones from my software encoders. The QS ones have been sent for putting through the Reality unit, so i can compare the results with the newly devoloped QS*Final/II process (which has not been used for any release)

    Alli need is someone with a QSD-1 who can record the output using my tones
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Hi All

    Give me a few days, we will try and get some QS - QSD1 comparisons with the assistance of "Rustyandi" who has every surround system known!

    Regards

    Chucky

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Please do not use a vector scope, lets have some proper information
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    What's better than a vectorscope? I'm not kidding, I don't know. Maybe a software version of a 4-channel storage scope? Throw me a bone here OD, I'm interested in this stuff! Apologies if I'm taking your thread off topic, just let me know if that's the case and I'll chill. And I don't have a QSD-1, that's the biggest reason I'm interested in the SM, although when I have enough dough I want one just to play 2ch or a certain EV or DY record.

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Dear All

    The vectorscope has it's uses a a quick view of where the sound is going, it can be quite informing. Having said that OD is correct that is very non specific. I will shortly also do some CRO photo's of the QS encode for sine wave tone, showing phase and magnitude relationships. No point of doing the same for INVOLVE encode as the matrix dynamically changes with music content.

    Regards

    Chucky

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Chucky, why not use the tones i sent? These are accurate QS encoded and will show what is needed, although i would still appreciate the decode qs decoded versions of both files for further examination
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Hi Richard

    I fully intend to use your file but as previously noted we are a bit flat out on a few other projects at the moment. Dave usually handles the audio file stuff and he basically has a permanent "do not disturb" sign up at the moment.

    As a interim we are doing other tests setups that make the other process's quicker this week. I know this sounds convoluted but we really are flat out but be assured it will happen.

    Regards

    chucky

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Hi

    And now an INVOLVE decode of a QS test disc on the Vectorscope. Next week I will publish to this site a direct comparison side by side of INVOLVE vs Sansui QSD1.


    Involve - decode of QS
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgDy...ature=youtu.be



    Regards

    Chucky

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Here's an idea i'd like to put forward because basically these pictures, etc don't actually prove anything. As the old saying goes: "the proofs in the eating".

    So, here's my idea. Choose a good QS encoded track, and as well as the picturial evidence, make the decoded files available in, say, MLP encoded format and include the newly developed SQ*Finall/II version in the mix as well.

    That way, people will be able to compare the results themselves, and will be able to checkout important things like image creation, stability, true front & rear l/r separation, etc

    This is obviously separate apart from the files sent to you for decoding and further examination.
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Hi Richard

    Time permitting, we are happy to try your suggestion. As an alternative may I offer you the opportunity of actually purchasing our unit (at the qq members discount price) and try the thing out yourself. When you are finished testing the unit and do not want to retain it just return it in good order (I think the terms were a month or so - I can check this for you).

    You like all members of this forum are free to post the good and the bad. If problems are found it is good feedback and we will attempt to rectify the situation.

    regards

    Chucky

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Hi

    Thanks for the offer but i'm one of those who never listen to 'artificial' surround, prefering to listen to music how it was created, so if it's stereo, it's played in stereo.

    The unit wouldn't get used much, there are onlt a few worthwhile QS albums (in my opinion) worth listening too and they have now been decoded over the last couple of weeks in the new QS*Final/II process.

    As explained in the other posting my main reason for doing this is to ensure that Quadraphiles here get the full facts as to the units capabilities, and that means accurate detailsof it's QS decoding abilities along with samples so they can decide themselves, rather than just taking the word of 'non-technical' individuals.

    regards
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    From the owner's thread:
    "I do not understand your statement that "As i've mentioned, i have a decode of a QS album done by this machine.""

    Why does the internet impede communication? That statement seems to be clearly describing a QS album played through a DECODER, no encoder needed to needed to do this, it was encoded over 30 years ago. In popular usage a "decode" is a recording of (in this case a QS) album from the '70s played through a hardware or software decoder.

    Sorry, I'm frustrated because I have no money and the car needs brakes.
    I do want one of these, the price is good and it gets rave reviews. I'm just waiting to hear someone say "I know the placement of sounds on this QS record through [top of the line decoder xyz-1] like the back of my hand and the new decoder places sounds in the same locations".

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by quadsearcher View Post
    From the owner's thread:
    "I do not understand your statement that "As i've mentioned, i have a decode of a QS album done by this machine.""

    Why does the internet impede communication? That statement seems to be clearly describing a QS album played through a DECODER, no encoder needed to needed to do this, it was encoded over 30 years ago. In popular usage a "decode" is a recording of (in this case a QS) album from the '70s played through a hardware or software decoder.

    Sorry, I'm frustrated because I have no money and the car needs brakes.
    I do want one of these, the price is good and it gets rave reviews. I'm just waiting to hear someone say "I know the placement of sounds on this QS record through [top of the line decoder xyz-1] like the back of my hand and the new decoder places sounds in the same locations".
    For what I can gather the "non-technical' individuals" that OD is referring too, happen to own every top QS decoder ever made...thus being able to compare them with the involve in audio listening tests, they all seem to conclude/find that the involve seems to perform just as well as the best one's ever made when you play Qs records through their quad systems.
    this is good because the older machines are harder to find and go for lots of money ...

    and most of us quaddies are not interested /bothered in doing computer conversions ourselves...and only OD appears to have access to his own special script that he loves so much...
    also because it means you can enjoy QS lp's in real time without having to try and spend hours using computer scripts..

    of course whether the decoder is comparable to computer scripts is what i think OD wants to know...as he considers his computer script to be the standard to judge by...
    In listening tests that's still hard to know as there are many variables in audio testing and you need the same equipment (turntable/cartridge/preamp/cables for a proper audio comparison of involve vs computer decoding) otherwise you're wasting your time.. which is why the non-technical' individuals a/b comparisons between QS decoders were good because the standard equipment was the same every time...
    I do not know what OD uses for a turntable/cartridge/preamp/cables...


    If one is to assume that the non-technical' individuals a/b listening test conclusions are all correct...then to fail the involve on qs decoding, would mean failing every qs decoder ever made on qs decoding.....of course being as good as the top qs decoder ever made on listening tests doesn't mean that it is still as good as a computer script that is presently unobtainable....but personally I'd take second best if it means having real time listening and obtainablity at a reasonable price..vs hours of computer work and oh sorry you can't have it!!.

    Hifi magazines like stereophile don't rate top products in the class A section if you can't buy them easily.

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    Fact: Just because you have a QS decoder doesn't mean you actually understand anything. I've spoken to far too many ""quad specalist's" who aretotally clueless to what exacly surround sound is.

    Wait for the test results, then i'll be accepting appologies from each and every one of you
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    I agree Christopher - a non-real time solution is for most of us, let alone Joe Public, no solution at all. Even if OD's script is mathematically accurate and is implemented in a functionally perfect, musically transparent, artefact free way (in itself some sort of miracle , but we've no way of ever knowing of course) few of us want (or have the ability) to faff around for hours with computers and software when the mood simply takes us to listen to something. Holding this unobtainable and impractical decoding method up as the self appointed gold standard against which the Involve device is to be judged seems inappropriate.

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    Default Re: Reality Technologies Surround Master - General Technical Questions

    This is the problem with you people here. I have NEVER put my decoding process's up against the unit in question.

    You have ALL totally missed the point, which proves to me you don't actually read what is written. You'd rather just attack me.

    I say (YET AGAIN) the unit needs to be tested against the sansui QS decoder techincal docs to show whether or not it complies. It does not, in other words, for the cloth eared out there, it does not perform a decode that complies with Sansuis standard.

    it fails in the ability of all "true" decoders designed to decode the sytem, in this case QS, and that is (for pete's sake understAND THIS): tO ACCURATELY DISPLAY THE ORIGINAL 4 CHANNEL MASTER IN IMAGE AND POSITIONAL ACCURACY.

    From what i've learnt from my time here, none of you seem to be able to actually understnd that, nor can you tell what's right or wrong. Just because you own a car doesn't mean you understand fully how it works.

    I've tried to help you lot here, but to be honest, i think i've wasted my time, none of you are worth helping.

    And the reason my decoding proccess's are not availablbe... it's for the very same reasons.Why should i give the reults of my hard work freely to a bunch of nobody's who don't appreciate anything?

    If you want to hear how transparent the new SQ and QS decodes are, you know where to look, once i've gotten around to actually release them that it.

    Again, for those who can't read: I HAVE NOT COMPARED THIS UNIT TO MY WORK.it would be unfair......

    On the unit, that is......
    http://the-quad-blog.blogspot.co.uk

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