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Thread: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

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    700 Club - QQ All Star chucky3042's Avatar
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    Default INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Dear all

    Just thought I would start a new thread on the coming SQ unit.

    The latest news is that Dave -IS WORKING ON IT. Every time I walk past his office I see the algorithm up on screen and stuff being jiggled around.

    Please feel free to ask questions or suggest ideas!

    Regards

    Chucky
    Last edited by chucky3042; 04-08-2013 at 01:41 PM.

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    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star Q8's Avatar
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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    One suggestion would be to have the center volume leval with the other outputs. In all honesty I probably will only use this in 4.0/4.1 but just in case. Maybe take a vote on the center level thing? I don't want to dictate it if everyone else things the center level is fine at the higher level.

    Other than that, maybe you can get little SQ/QS logo stickers made :P

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by Q8 View Post
    ......Other than that, maybe you can get little SQ/QS logo stickers made :P
    That would probably require licensing fees and all.

    For that matter Chucky, do you have to pay Sony to sell an SQ decoder, even if you design it yourself?
    :-jon

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    I don't know how the trademarks for terms and logos like SQ and QS work. But as far as the technology behind SQ and QS, I believe the patents are well expired.

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    Member bangsezmax's Avatar
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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by Q8 View Post
    One suggestion would be to have the center volume leval with the other outputs. In all honesty I probably will only use this in 4.0/4.1 but just in case. Maybe take a vote on the center level thing? I don't want to dictate it if everyone else things the center level is fine at the higher level.

    Other than that, maybe you can get little SQ/QS logo stickers made :P
    Please read the other thread -- there will be NO CENTER CHANNEL for SQ mode. This was made clear some time ago.

    I'm certainly fine with that.

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    And thanks Chucky -- great news! I'm very excited to hear the results.

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by bangsezmax View Post
    Please read the other thread -- there will be NO CENTER CHANNEL for SQ mode. This was made clear some time ago.

    I'm certainly fine with that.
    I am fine with no 5.1 in the SQ mode as well. I probably will use it in 4.0 only in QS mode as well. But SQ surround master still has the QS mode. The QS mode will still have 5.1. I thought it would be nice for them to level out the center in 5.1 mode of the QS mode. Sorry if I didn't make the question more clear earlier.

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Ahh -- I gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood what you said.

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    ...I gather it's piece of HARDWARE, not a program....very excited, I'm an all out SQ fan...
    Avatar: a Goddess...Capucine -...The Ice Queen
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    "LIFE is NOT in Stereo , it's in SURROUND, so why limit your music to stereo...? By that same train of thought we should've stayed in MONO..." -Me

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Hi

    Its both hardware and a whole bunch of software.

    Regards

    Chucky

    Quote Originally Posted by kap'n krunch View Post
    ...I gather it's piece of HARDWARE, not a program....very excited, I'm an all out SQ fan...

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by chucky3042 View Post
    Hi

    Its both hardware and a whole bunch of software.

    Regards

    Chucky
    And leprechauns. Please tell me there's leprechauns.

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    700 Club - QQ All Star chucky3042's Avatar
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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    No, but Dave is Irish/ Greek and looks much like a goblin.



    Quote Originally Posted by RSilverman View Post
    And leprechauns. Please tell me there's leprechauns.

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Chucky, I guess the basic decoding of the phase encoded Rt and Lt channels is fairly straightforward (!) - but what steering, positional enhancement or psycho-acoustic treatments do you envisage may be necessary to maximise performance?

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Hi Soundfield

    Actually the basic SQ decoding and our surround logic control parts are all done, the issue we are struggling with at the moment is how we are going to apply our front, back and (maybe a little Left, right) steering controls to the basic SQ decode matrix. SQ did not use the variomatrix approach instead they used variable gain blocks.

    We have done some initial trials with a variomatrix SQ adaption formula described in some early Sansui documents but I am not impressed so far. We are working on some variants of our own at the moment.

    Our surround logic controller uses many techniques such as tri band splitting, multiple attack/ decay times, Fletcher - Munson human hearing modeling, weighting and priority polling techniques most of these were a bit complex to apply in the good old days.

    So in summary we are currently wading through a river of poo...... time and a good wash will cleanse.

    Regards

    Chucky

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by chucky3042 View Post
    Hi Soundfield

    Actually the basic SQ decoding and our surround logic control parts are all done, the issue we are struggling with at the moment is how we are going to apply our front, back and (maybe a little Left, right) steering controls to the basic SQ decode matrix.
    Hello Chucky.

    I have absolutely no experience with the decoding scripts that are around, but if I have it right it is possible to get adequate separation based only on the phase differences.
    Pablo Roufogalis L.
    (The Ambiance Pariah)

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Hi Proufo

    You are correct but we are trying to improve matters.

    Regards

    chucky

    Quote Originally Posted by proufo View Post
    Hello Chucky.

    I have absolutely no experience with the decoding scripts that are around, but if I have it right it is possible to get adequate separation based only on the phase differences.

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    Member Soundfield's Avatar
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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by chucky3042 View Post
    Hi Soundfield

    Actually the basic SQ decoding and our surround logic control parts are all done, the issue we are struggling with at the moment is how we are going to apply our front, back and (maybe a little Left, right) steering controls to the basic SQ decode matrix. SQ did not use the variomatrix approach instead they used variable gain blocks.

    We have done some initial trials with a variomatrix SQ adaption formula described in some early Sansui documents but I am not impressed so far. We are working on some variants of our own at the moment.

    Our surround logic controller uses many techniques such as tri band splitting, multiple attack/ decay times, Fletcher - Munson human hearing modeling, weighting and priority polling techniques most of these were a bit complex to apply in the good old days.

    So in summary we are currently wading through a river of poo...... time and a good wash will cleanse.

    Regards

    Chucky
    Thanks for the update Chucky. Whilst not wishing to add unnecessarily to the depth of poo.... have you given any consideration to the various 'flavours' of SQ encoding that (albeit briefly) existed? I'm thinking of the different soundstage emphasis that arose from the the fairly arbritrary adoption by different producers of the so called "Forward Oriented", "Backward Oriented" or "London Box" encoding regimes. Having said that, I'm not sure if any decoder is actually capable of detecting which particular type of encoder may have been used, let alone whether any diffferent decoding strategies might be called for to optimise uniquely for any of them, so I'd be interested in your thoughts.
    Cheers.

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundfield View Post
    ... that arose from the the fairly arbritrary adoption by different producers of the so called "Forward Oriented", "Backward Oriented" or "London Box" encoding regimes.
    Hello Soundfield.

    Could you please expand on this, probably in a separate thread?

    Many, many thanks in advance.
    Pablo Roufogalis L.
    (The Ambiance Pariah)

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by proufo View Post
    Hello Soundfield.

    Could you please expand on this, probably in a separate thread?

    Many, many thanks in advance.
    Lots of info on the web proufo, suggest you start with Wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_decoder

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundfield View Post
    Lots of info on the web proufo, suggest you start with Wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_decoder
    Thanks anyway.
    Pablo Roufogalis L.
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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Hi Soundfield

    Still wallowing in a swamp of poo.

    At present I have not looked too deeply into the variants you listed - frankly Dolby PL2 and circle surround (by SRS now DTS) are also SQ variants. As I mentioned we are trying a few "known" techniques of logic decoding SQ but truthfully I am not impressed yet. It is hard to get an even surround from an inherently non even encode such as SQ.

    Having said that in frustration I went deeply into "my happy place" last night and stared blankly into a bunch of equations and vector diagrams for a few hours and walked out "talking in tongues" with a possible concept to get a better decode. We will trial it this week.

    Regards

    Chucky

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundfield View Post
    Thanks for the update Chucky. Whilst not wishing to add unnecessarily to the depth of poo.... have you given any consideration to the various 'flavours' of SQ encoding that (albeit briefly) existed? I'm thinking of the different soundstage emphasis that arose from the the fairly arbritrary adoption by different producers of the so called "Forward Oriented", "Backward Oriented" or "London Box" encoding regimes. Having said that, I'm not sure if any decoder is actually capable of detecting which particular type of encoder may have been used, let alone whether any diffferent decoding strategies might be called for to optimise uniquely for any of them, so I'd be interested in your thoughts.
    Cheers.

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Chucky - I recognise that SQ is inherently (and at CBS' request, deliberately) flawed from a true surround perspective, and any performance improvements will be a real struggle (I'm thinking you are in silk purse and pig's ear territory here) so good luck with your experiments. Please keep us informed. Cheers.

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundfield View Post
    Chucky - I recognise that SQ is inherently (and at CBS' request, deliberately) flawed from a true surround perspective, and any performance improvements will be a real struggle (I'm thinking you are in silk purse and pig's ear territory here) so good luck with your experiments. Please keep us informed. Cheers.
    Well, as far as matrix systems go, SQ is better than QS(better LF-RF separation).
    I have personally achieved outstanding results from software decoding (about 30 dB channel separation)...e.g., PF , WYWH which I prefer my SQ LP conversion to the Immersion box discs, which are edited and sound...lifeless...
    Also, tha 1st Santana LP DVD-A is incredible!!!


    BTW, love your avatar....
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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Chucky- please don't forget to look at/incorporate techniques used in the tate units. Some of the original designers of that unit occasionaly show up here on Quadraphonicquad.

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    Default Re: INVOLVE SQ - IS COMING

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundfield View Post
    Thanks for the update Chucky. Whilst not wishing to add unnecessarily to the depth of poo.... have you given any consideration to the various 'flavors' of SQ encoding that (albeit briefly) existed? I'm thinking of the different soundstage emphasis that arose from the the fairly arbitrary adoption by different producers of the so called "Forward Oriented", "Backward Oriented" or "London Box" encoding regimes. Having said that, I'm not sure if any decoder is actually capable of detecting which particular type of encoder may have been used, let alone whether any different decoding strategies might be called for to optimize uniquely for any of them, so I'd be interested in your thoughts.
    Cheers.
    You'd probably have to contact Martin Willcocks who designed the original Tate ICs to get into that level of SQ paramatrix decoding. He was the one who raised the possibility that future SQ decoders could be tweaked by recognizing and then adapting their paramatrix decoding based on the encoder type used as you suggest. Not sure anyone else has explored that aspect of SQ processing.

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