INVOLVE - COMING NEW TECHNOLOGY

Hi All

Please note that we have started our own YouTube channel, we will be posting updates on a regular basis:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmmMEfSHG1BkNc355nzN7eg

Enjoy

Chucky

Hello all,

Don't know if someone already asked, but would it be possible to add an automatic low cut filter for the front/rear outputs of the SM, when the subwoofer output is connected ? At 80Hz ie.
I don't have a HC amplifier, so I must add an equalizer to cut low frequencies on my front/rear speakers, as I use a subwoofer.
That thing, + the metal chassis (do you have an idea when it will be out ?).

Hello all,

Don't know if someone already asked, but would it be possible to add an automatic low cut filter for the front/rear outputs of the SM, when the subwoofer output is connected ? At 80Hz ie.
I don't have a HC amplifier, so I must add an equalizer to cut low frequencies on my front/rear speakers, as I use a subwoofer.
That thing, + the metal chassis (do you have an idea when it will be out ?).

Hello Yucca

Sorry about the delayed reply, I was in the Philippines and Hong Kong and had to think about your question.

I think you make a good point. We have NO SPACE in the DSP chips as they are really functioning beyond their capacity. We will however look at adding a bit of analogue hardware and a switch in a future upgraded metal case version.

Thanks

Chucky

Dear All

We are currently having a bash at headphone surround with Involve decode.

Just wondering what your collective experience is with this technique. Currently my favorite other manufacturer version is DTS headphone X. I have not tried the Smyth realiser but I believe it is very good.

Any ideas/ concepts?

Regards

Chucky

chucky3042 said:

Dear All

We are currently having a bash at headphone surround with Involve decode.

Just wondering what your collective experience is with this technique. Currently my favorite other manufacturer version is DTS headphone X. I have not tried the Smyth realiser but I believe it is very good.

Any ideas/ concepts?

Regards

Chucky

Click to expand...

The Smyth Realizer is by far the best I've heard in terms of bringing Surround Sound to you via Stereo Headphones.
Their ability to allow for personal measuring likely has something to do with that.

The Beyer Headzone processor is also very good. No option for personal measurements though.
http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/headzone-manufaktur.html

For less cost ($149), the Darin Fong "Out Of Your Head" software is very interesting as well.
https://fongaudio.com/out-of-your-head-software/

Hi Bmoura

Tried the Fong demo, did not work well for my head. Only marginal separation. Wish the Beyer had a demo.

Regards

Chucky

chucky3042 said:

Dear All

We are currently having a bash at headphone surround with Involve decode.

Just wondering what your collective experience is with this technique. Currently my favorite other manufacturer version is DTS headphone X. I have not tried the Smyth realiser but I believe it is very good.

Any ideas/ concepts?

Regards

Chucky

Click to expand...

Hi Chucky,
I'd be very interested in an SQ / Involve SM with a headphone mode (much more so than CD4 decoder idea - I don't think I've even seen a CD4 disc!). But I realise this would be a very difficult nut to crack, even binaural recordings, theoretically the simplest / best way to achieve 360 degree immersion through headphones don't image properly (or at all!) for many people. There may just be too many variables - hence the underlying truth in your "Fong..did not work well for my head" observation. Similarly DTS Headphone X does not work for my head - it does not produce images outside of my head and the front to back separation is minimal as a result. Creating robust 360 images outside of the head for any and all users without personalised calibration would be an achievement indeed - good luck!

Hi Soundfield

I really think the key is personal calibration. Fortunately we are gifted with some difficult heads in Involve. Our business/ marketing manager Dawson has become known as "the Pud" as he is incapable of perceiving virtual surround.....so we called him "puddinghead" and you know the abbreviation.

Regards

Chucky



Regards

Chucky

Interesting! The holy grail would be to take in 5.1 and get a convincing headphone surround, so your victim sounds the ideal candidate! I've only tried the Dolby Headphone setting on my amp with the DD stream off the DVD-As, only poor front-back separation, but more spacious left-right. So if you could come up with something way better that would be brilliant.

Would it be a box that sits between the Universal player and amp, with HDMI & 5.1 feed-through? That would be really useful. :upthumb

Good feedback and good suggestion. I am not sure about the final format yet.

Regards

Chucky

DuncanS said:

Interesting! The holy grail would be to take in 5.1 and get a convincing headphone surround, so your victim sounds the ideal candidate! I've only tried the Dolby Headphone setting on my amp with the DD stream off the DVD-As, only poor front-back separation, but more spacious left-right. So if you could come up with something way better that would be brilliant.

Would it be a box that sits between the Universal player and amp, with HDMI & 5.1 feed-through? That would be really useful. :upthumb

Click to expand...

chucky3042 said:

Hi Soundfield
I really think the key is personal calibration. Fortunately we are gifted with some difficult heads in Involve. Our business/ marketing manager Dawson has become known as "the Pud" as he is incapable of perceiving virtual surround.....so we called him "puddinghead" and you know the abbreviation.
Regards
Chucky

Click to expand...

Hi Chucky,
I suspect here are many of us ‘pudding heads’ about! Like your good colleague, I’m more or less immune to ‘virtual’ surround sound. Some (but only some) pure binaural recordings work for me but none of the commercial headphone surround processing gizmos seem to work at all. I’ve tried DTS Headphone X, Dolby Headphone, Turtle Beach, CMSS 3D, THX TruStudio etc. At best they sound little different from straight stereo, at worst they sound unpleasantly vague and phasey – not one of them has been able to create for me a remotely convincing sense of being at the centre of a particular ambient space populated with robust ‘out of the head’ images. A lot of manufactures talk impressively about such things as accurately modelling Head Related Transfer Functions or replicating Psycho-Acoustic Dynamics but the truth is that the problem has largely defeated them all. If you have a new take on this it would be hugely welcome!
Cheers.

Soundfield said:

Hi Chucky,
I suspect here are many of us ‘pudding heads’ about! Like your good colleague, I’m more or less immune to ‘virtual’ surround sound. Some (but only some) pure binaural recordings work for me but none of the commercial headphone surround processing gizmos seem to work at all. I’ve tried DTS Headphone X, Dolby Headphone, Turtle Beach, CMSS 3D, THX TruStudio etc. At best they sound little different from straight stereo, at worst they sound unpleasantly vague and phasey – not one of them has been able to create for me a remotely convincing sense of being at the centre of a particular ambient space populated with robust ‘out of the head’ images. A lot of manufactures talk impressively about such things as accurately modelling Head Related Transfer Functions or replicating Psycho-Acoustic Dynamics but the truth is that the problem has largely defeated them all. If you have a new take on this it would be hugely welcome!
Cheers.

Click to expand...

It's a tough one to crack.
For me, only the Smyth Realiser 8 that uses HRTF can provide convincing Surround Sound from Stereo Headphones.

bmoura said:

It's a tough one to crack.
For me, only the Smyth Realiser 8 that uses HRTF can provide convincing Surround Sound from Stereo Headphones.

Click to expand...

As I understand it, the Smyth Realiser sets out to record via microphones in your ears and then subsequently emulate, the sound of the speakers in your room. It may well do that, but from a product point of view this is obviously flawed. If you haven’t got a speaker based surround system you can’t record it (!), and surely a lot of potential users are in that very category – they want a headphone based solution for the very reason that they don’t have the room for a full 7.1 speaker system in the first place. Further, the very concept of reproducing, warts and all, the sound of a less than perfect speaker set up in a less than perfect environment (which is surely what the rest of us have) seems a very strange design aim (it’s certainly not a hi fi one). I want a headphone system that expressly doesn’t suffer from the limitations of my listening room and puts me in the true acoustic of the recording environment.

Hi Soundfield

Thats exactly my thoughts!!!


Regards

Chucky

Soundfield said:

As I understand it, the Smyth Realiser sets out to record via microphones in your ears and then subsequently emulate, the sound of the speakers in your room. It may well do that, but from a product point of view this is obviously flawed. If you haven’t got a speaker based surround system you can’t record it (!), and surely a lot of potential users are in that very category – they want a headphone based solution for the very reason that they don’t have the room for a full 7.1 speaker system in the first place. Further, the very concept of reproducing, warts and all, the sound of a less than perfect speaker set up in a less than perfect environment (which is surely what the rest of us have) seems a very strange design aim (it’s certainly not a hi fi one). I want a headphone system that expressly doesn’t suffer from the limitations of my listening room and puts me in the true acoustic of the recording environment.

Click to expand...

What about some kind of space helmet-shaped device (or the yea-olde scruba diver helmets), sound-proof, that fits over your head, maybe rests on your shoulders and actually has tweeters and woofers in it, positioned where they ought to be in relation to your head (45 degrees, center, 135 degrees, etc.)? And your seat could have a built-in sub. Like, rumble-butt style!
Ventilation for breathing would need to be worked out. Maybe some kind of C-pap machine, forced-air type of thing.

Or a surround booth? Like, the size of those single-person saunas at some gyms.

Problem is that just putting multiple mini drivers in a cup (such as the Razor) just does not work other than fools thinking they now have surround after spending $300. To get a sense of distance and directionality you need to account for head related transfer functions and the fact that any speaker close to the ears get perceived as side.

I remember back in the 70's (yes I am an old bugger) I purchased a set of JVC "surround headphones" and after eagerly connecting them to my surround setup getting exactly zero surround effect.....I then got a set of Stax electrostatics.

Regards

Chucky

Regards

Chucky

edisonbaggins said:

What about some kind of space helmet-shaped device (or the yea-olde scruba diver helmets), sound-proof, that fits over your head, maybe rests on your shoulders and actually has tweeters and woofers in it, positioned where they ought to be in relation to your head (45 degrees, center, 135 degrees, etc.)? And your seat could have a built-in sub. Like, rumble-butt style!
Ventilation for breathing would need to be worked out. Maybe some kind of C-pap machine, forced-air type of thing.

Click to expand...

Soundfield said:

As I understand it, the Smyth Realiser sets out to record via microphones in your ears and then subsequently emulate, the sound of the speakers in your room. It may well do that, but from a product point of view this is obviously flawed. If you haven’t got a speaker based surround system you can’t record it (!), and surely a lot of potential users are in that very category – they want a headphone based solution for the very reason that they don’t have the room for a full 7.1 speaker system in the first place. Further, the very concept of reproducing, warts and all, the sound of a less than perfect speaker set up in a less than perfect environment (which is surely what the rest of us have) seems a very strange design aim (it’s certainly not a hi fi one). I want a headphone system that expressly doesn’t suffer from the limitations of my listening room and puts me in the true acoustic of the recording environment.

Click to expand...

The Smyth Realiser works without personal and room measurements as well, just not as effectively.

And it is effective - some recording, mixing and mastering engineers have purchased a Smyth Realiser so they can continue 5.1 and 7.1 Surround Sound work on albums at a different site, including their home studio.
As a result, it's become more of a professional recording industry product than one for the home market.

The other thing to remember is that the Smyth Realiser allows you to visit a High End Audio Store or Recording Studio, create a measurement file, and then hear music through that room when you are at home.
A very cool feature indeed!

http://www.head-fi.org/t/418401/long-awaited-smyth-svs-realiser-now-available-for-purchase
http://smyth-research.com/products.html

bmoura said:

The other thing to remember is that the Smyth Realiser allows you to visit a High End Audio Store or Recording Studio, create a measurement file, and then hear music through that room when you are at home.

Click to expand...

Hmm, I’ve a strange feeling how that might go if I tried that:

Me - “Hello is that the Swanky West End Hi Fi Boutique?”
Swanky West End Hi Fi Boutique – “Yes Sir, how may we help?”
Me – “I’d like to make an appointment to listen to the finest surround sound system you have please”
Swanky West End Hi Fi Boutique – “Certainly Sir, we could arrange to demonstrate any number of system combinations for you, what sort of budget did you have in mind?”
Me – “Oh I don’t want to buy anything, I just want to come and install some equipment and record how good your set up sounds so I can replicate it home for free”
Swanky West End Hi Fi Boutique – “Very funny Sir”
Me – “No, I’m serious”
Swanky West End Hi Fi Boutique – “If you don’t go away I’m calling the Police”

Or perhaps

Me - “Hello is that the World Famous Recording Studio?”
World Famous Recording Studio - “Yes Sir, how may we help?”
Me – “I’d like to make an appointment to use your studio facilities please”
World Famous Recording Studio – “Certainly Sir, we’re booked up solid for the next six months but have a couple of slots available in June at £10,000 per day – how many days did you want?”
Me – “Oh I don’t want to hire anything, I just want to come and install some equipment and record how good your set up sounds so I can replicate it home for free”
World Famous Recording Studio – “Very funny Sir”
Me – “No, I’m serious”
World Famous Recording Studio - “If you don’t go away I’m calling the Police”