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:cool: I definitely prefer the Black facia and No.3. Is it economic to be able to offer silver/brushed Al for those that wanted it?

From a logical point of view from Left to Right I would have Power, Input Selector, then Involve/Stereo select, then the OLED screen (or after balancing but before Master Vol.), then Rear Delay, Channel balancing, Master Volume & headphone o/p.

I think the sliders look better, but they have to be good sealed units (which cost) or they will crackle over time, so rotary pots may be better, plus how often would you adjust them, rotary pots are easier to use.

I think its a great idea not to have hidden menus, nice and simple is best. Would you consider rectangular VU meter graphics, with a cream background (as per a lot of 70s kit)?

Will it have HDMI out for 4.0/5.1?

Plus I'd want 5.1 feedthrough as I'd want to put it in line using HDMI between my Universal player and the 5.1 amp and be able to switch it 'in circuit' to decode stereo sources.


I would like an SQ option as well as Involve decode. The other option would be to be able to have a two channel Analogue-Out (so we could use the Phono pre-amp in the new kit) to a Surround Master & 4.0/5.1 Analogue-In to be able to switch the SM into circuit when required.

Will the headphone output be a surround effect or just plain stereo? I would also like something that could take any 4.0/5.1 source (so Involve/SM/HDMI) and try and give a surround effect through stereo headphones (so more front-rear separation) - being a night owl its a pain listening late at night/early hours of the morning in stereo on the headphones.

Cheers

Duncan
 
Ok, get ready for a big post! Please remember that all of this is subject to change, this is what we'd love to do but depending on pricing, design process etc. things may change in the future.

Thanks for your comments Imallnj, Ron, Duncan!

1. Faceplate
We'll be doing both black and silver brushed faceplates at this moment in time, I prefer the silver myself so we'll all be happy :)

2. 6 Channel out
There will be a 6 Channel Output, we'll do this in the same way as the Surround Master, using 8 RCA's for the 4 and 5 channel outputs. This time we're going to have dual LFE out though, it will be able to switched between Mono, Front/Back, Left/Right. So in total there will be 9 RCA Outputs (LF(4 Channel), RF(4 Channel), LF(5 Channel), RF(5 Channel), Centre, LB, RB, SubL/F, SubR/R)

3. Tape
Tape Monitor will be two channel IN, but will still go through Involve if you have the Stereo/Toggle switch set to Involve. Please note, we can't monitor the HDMI inputs as the HDMI license restricts you from allowing a way to record from HDMI sources. I also realised we forgot to put the Tape/Source switch on the front panel, I'll add that in and post a few more concepts later.

4. Aux
Aux is 2 channel, with a third RCA for Video. We'll have a separate 6 Channel RCA direct in which will bypass Involve.

5. Remote
There will be a remote, we're still working out exactly what it will control.
At the moment we're thinking:
- Standby On/Off
- Volume (the Volume pot will be motorised to reflect the correct volume)
- Channel levels (this may mean we have to use rotary pots as sliders don't come motorised in the size we want)
- Switch between screens, ie, VU-Vector Scope-EQ-etc.

6. VU Meters
You will be able to switch between 4 channel and 5 channel for the VU Meters. The images I've used for the screens on the OLED display are just for a rough idea of what it will look like. We'll have the 4/5 channel select on the OLED screen to the left or right most probably.

7. HDMI
Yes, there will be 3 HDMI IN and 1 HDMI Out.
We're doing some more research into HDMI, there's a bunch of licensing stuff and overrides that make it all a bit complicated. At the moment we haven't planned to put the Involve out through HDMI as we don't think it's within the HDMI licensing restrictions, and we're not sure whether we can output the 4/5 channel in from the HDMI while also taking the stereo track out of it, we're looking into it though.

8. SQ
For the special QQ SQ (can we call it the QQ SQ? I quite like that) version we were thinking we'd change the Involve/Stereo toggle switch to a three way switch (maybe even user modifiable, with a firmware update) and have Involve/SQ/Stereo. Just for you guys :) We'll also have a Stereo Pass-through so you can output to whatever you like.

9. Channel Notation
Woops, yes, I'll make the channel controls LF, RF, Centre, LB, RB, Sub as is standard

10. Vectorscope
The Vectorscope hasn't been completely scoped (pun fully intended) out yet, at the moment we're thinking you will switch between 4 channel, 5 channel and a Circle with degree marks. It will display the vector in a similar way to the Marantz 4400.

11. Sliders vs Rotary pots
We've had the same thoughts about the sliders Duncan, I'm hoping we'll get to prototype both sliders and rotary pots so we can see how each will fare.

12. Themes
We'll have a few themes available (70's will be one) with the initial release so you can swap between colours for text, background, shapes for the VU, etc. We'll be able to add more themes with firmware updates. What other themes would you guys like?

13. Headphones
We'd like to have a surround effect for the headphones, we need to do some more R&D on it though, so it may not be in the release firmware but we will have a USB firmware update ability so it can be added later. It will switch with the Stereo/Involve toggle switch.

14. 5.1 feedthrough
We'll have 5.1 direct RCA in so you can bypass Involve. Will that cover what you're trying to do Duncan?

15. Outputs
Here's a summary of the Outputs
- HDMI out (straight pass through)
- Front Left(4 Channel) RCA out
- Front Left(5 Channel) RCA out
- Front Right(4 Channel) RCA out
- Front Right(5 Channel) RCA out
- Rear Left RCA out
- Rear Right RCA out
- Centre RCA out
- Video RCA out (only for the AUX, we will not be converting from the 3 digital HDMI IN's to analog)
- Left Stereo Pass-through RCA out
- Right Stereo Pass-through RCA out
- Tape Out Left RCA
- Tape Out Right RCA
- Sub1 RCA out (mono, left, front)
- Sub 2 RCA out (mono, right, rear)

I'll do another post once we've sorted out some more things and if any changes arise.

Here's the layout you suggested Duncan, (with added Tape/Source switch).

ISP Front Panel Concept 9.jpg

Kind Regards,

Chris
 
as well would suggest to replace VU by square ones. after all that's not equipment for steamship boiler room :p
second concern, the sliders. as mentioned above, they are less reliable than rotary.


oh! and. from my aesthetics perspective, VU location in centre is the best.
 
Could there be an input "gain" control, perhaps with green/yellow/red LEDs, for the analog sources, in order to take full advantage of all the bits in the ADC?
 
Hi Chris - thanks for seeking to 'involve' us (!).
I'm pretty happy with the proposed inputs and outputs, although personally I've no need for the various pass-through facilities.
In functional terms, again looks good to me, but SQ is a must along with Involve.
I'd also like the surround headphone facility but recognise that this is something that has defeated many and would not want the pre-amp to be held up while you crack that particularly hard nut! (Happy for it to come along latter).
Remote control really only needs to control master volume and provide a mute facility (anything else just adds complexity - do you really want half a dozen motorised controls?- and If I need to do anything more I'll probably have to be standing next to the associated equipment to fiddle with that anyway).

My thoughts on front panel design are as follows:

1. Black and silver finish to be available if possible (I'd then buy one of each!).
2. Layout no. 9 looks the most practical / appealing (certainly the display should be centrally disposed) but (and this is a big but) under no circumstances should you even consider the use of sliders (they are the invention of the Devil, get dirty and noisy, offer poor control over the limited track length you'd be using and quite frankly just look cheap and nasty!). Please don't waste your time trying them out - just get some decent rotary pots!
3. I'm afraid I'm not convinced by the touch screen icons along the bottom of the screen. They just take up valuable screen real estate and are a distraction(if I've selected VU meters why do I want to be permanently reminded of the other modes?). Far better just to have a push button that just steps through the modes (including very importantly, off - for when you don't want a light show disrupting your listening).
4. The VU meters should be square / rectangular and not circular. I'm not sure you need many "themes" - Marantz blue or Sony yellow would be fine for the meters and Marantz blue or standard oscilloscope green would be fine for the vectorscope.
5. You seem to have mentioned an EQ display for the first time, but I hadn't spotted where the controls for an equaliser might be? Not that its a function I'd be very keen on - such things are not very hi-fi and generally only get in the way (if ever used).

I'm sure I'll think of some other issues latter.
Thanks.
Soundfield

(PS _ Did I mention that sliders were a ghastly idea?)
 
Thanks for your comments Otto, Proufo and Soundfield, they're really helpful for our design process!

1. Square VU Meters
They were just circles in the image for now, they can be square, triangle or any shape. We'll have squares as default. A few people have been saying centre looks best for the VU MetersGain Control

2. "Gain" Control
We don't think that for the price we're aiming for we can fit in a gain control.

3. SQ
Have a look at concept 10 below I've added in where we'd design in SQ at the moment

4. Remote control
Thanks for the feedback on this Soundfield. We weren't sure whether the channel control would be something that was wanted so I put it in for comment. Mute is a very good idea, forgot about that.
Here's the proposed controls
- Standby
- Mute
- Master Volume
- Swap between screens

5. Rotary Pots vs Sliders
So far we're heading heavily towards rotary pots, it looks like people either like them or don't mind them whereas the sliders have either love or hate. (I myself am an amateur Live Sound Engineer and am used to high quality sliders that have outlasted pots. I guess the commercial stuff is different, thanks for the info!)

6. OLED Touch Screen
The icons shown were just a quick representation of what the different screens could be. We're thinking of a few different ways of controlling the screen and swapping between different function, here are the ideas we're throwing around at the moment

A) The menu will work in a similar way to android phones, where you tap the screen and the menu is brought up from the bottom. If left untouched for 5 or so seconds it will fade/swipe away. This way screen realestate is saved.
B) The menu is fixed, with icons for each screen (not large and taking up heaps of space).
C) No onscreen menu, physical buttons are used to switch between functions

7. OLED Dimmer
We'll have a dimmer pot for the screen, going from OFF all the way to super duper bright.

8. Themes
There will be a select few themes, thanks for your input on what you’d like Soundfield.

9. EQ
The EQ will be one of the functions of the OLED screen, when you're in the graphic eq you'll be able to change each band by moving the virtual faders (the value will be displayed below the fader). It will have a disable button (on the screen) and be flat by default.

10. Price
Here's a rundown of our target price, we're aiming for USD1500, but with all the features that could go to USD2000 or higher, we can't be sure until we start making the thing.
What is your guys opinion of a good price point? (something higher than $1 would be nice)

11. Concept 10
Here's another concept for the front panel, I've done the screen in a way that is like idea A) above, the menu is up at the moment but would hide away when not being used. The icons and VU graphics are only placeholders, we'll make them look nice on the final version.

ISP Front Panel Concept 10.png

Credit to Sergey Krivoy, Abhimanyu Bose, Vectors Market and Hayden Kerrisk from The Noun Project for the icons.
 

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10. Price
What is your guys opinion of a good price point? (something higher than $1 would be nice)
huh! harsh question and that's quite unexpected turn.
would "Involve" will settle for $1.25? :p


on serious note - i'm curious what sort of VU gonna be, real analog or OLED imitation?
 
Hi Otto

You are generous to a fault, with that I can buy another lukewarm bowl of gruel to help fill out my 250 lb frame.

We will be using OLED imitation metering

Regards

Chucky
 
Thanks for your comments Otto, Proufo and Soundfield, they're really helpful for our design process!
Glad to be of service!

1. Square VU Meters
They were just circles in the image for now, they can be square, triangle or any shape. We'll have squares as default. A few people have been saying centre looks best for the VU MetersGain Control!
Agreed, square & centered are best.

2. "Gain" Control
We don't think that for the price we're aiming for we can fit in a gain control.
Agreed, don't think this is necessary.

3. SQ
Have a look at concept 10 below I've added in where we'd design in SQ at the moment
I can't actually see that - just an Involve / Stereo toggle.

4. Remote control
Thanks for the feedback on this Soundfield. We weren't sure whether the channel control would be something that was wanted so I put it in for comment. Mute is a very good idea, forgot about that.
Here's the proposed controls
- Standby
- Mute
- Master Volume
- Swap between screens
That's perfect, thanks.

5. Rotary Pots vs Sliders
So far we're heading heavily towards rotary pots, it looks like people either like them or don't mind them whereas the sliders have either love or hate. (I myself am an amateur Live Sound Engineer and am used to high quality sliders that have outlasted pots. I guess the commercial stuff is different, thanks for the info!)
Keep heading in that direction! Long throw high quality sliders on studio equipment are very different beasts to the sort of nasty miniature things you'd have to fit here.

6. OLED Touch Screen
The icons shown were just a quick representation of what the different screens could be. We're thinking of a few different ways of controlling the screen and swapping between different function, here are the ideas we're throwing around at the moment
A) The menu will work in a similar way to android phones, where you tap the screen and the menu is brought up from the bottom. If left untouched for 5 or so seconds it will fade/swipe away. This way screen realestate is saved.
B) The menu is fixed, with icons for each screen (not large and taking up heaps of space).
C) No onscreen menu, physical buttons are used to switch between functions
Option (A) is a nice idea and I'd be happy with that although my preference would be for Option(C). Option (B) is a non-starter.

7. OLED Dimmer
We'll have a dimmer pot for the screen, going from OFF all the way to super duper bright.
That should work fine.

8. Themes
There will be a select few themes, thanks for your input on what you’d like Soundfield.
Good - I don't think you need to over complicate this aspect.

9. EQ
The EQ will be one of the functions of the OLED screen, when you're in the graphic eq you'll be able to change each band by moving the virtual faders (the value will be displayed below the fader). It will have a disable button (on the screen) and be flat by default.
I'm not a fan of this idea (or of any tone controls frankly) just another bit of circuitry / signal processing to get in the way of the signal (even when "flat"). There's a good reason most high end equipment avoids them. I doubt anyone uses them anyway after a quick fiddle when first out of the box! I'd urge you to avoid this facility.

10. Price
Here's a rundown of our target price, we're aiming for USD1500, but with all the features that could go to USD2000 or higher, we can't be sure until we start making the thing.
What is your guys opinion of a good price point? (something higher than $1 would be nice)
I'm thinking $1,500 - $2,000 would be about right for this sort of product.

11. Concept 10
Here's another concept for the front panel, I've done the screen in a way that is like idea A) above, the menu is up at the moment but would hide away when not being used. The icons and VU graphics are only placeholders, we'll make them look nice on the final version.
View attachment 25815
This is looking pretty good to me. One small error - you seem to have "Tape Monitor" as a position on the Input Selector switch. Obviously it isn't an "input" as it is governed by the Tape Monitor / Source switch.

Great work so far - thanks for all your effort!
Cheers,
Soundfield
.
 
[1] The Display with Square/Rectangular VUs placed centrally does look the best.
[2] I'm not that bothered about a "Gain" control.
[3] I take it the SQ option is another postion on the Involve/Stereo switch?
[4] Remote, very useful, rear delay might be a useful Up/Down to get best in a seating position - I'm not that bothered with Standby, and adding in the electronics to stay powered and monitor can add to the cost, or are you having a soap-on-a-rope style external mains to DC supply?
[5] Rotary pots are best (I too have had fun with live mixing, Penny & Giles sliders are expensive!)
[6] You ideas for the display & control functions sound good
[7] Display dimming. Rather than a pot could you not do it via a screen up/down slider function?
[8] Themes - why not, shouldn't cost that much!
[9] I'm not sure about the EQ, could be useful, might not, I probably wouldn't use them, my Pioneer SC-LX86 Amp EQs the room, so has no tone controls.
[10] Ah the difficult question, so US$1500 is probably it, which is around £1000 UK at current (£1=US$1.44), by the time we've added Import Duty & VAT into the UK that will be around £1250 or US$1800. Its an expensive add-on (the SC-LX86 was about £2000), so the features such as SQ/Headphone-surround & the great VU meters would help 'justify' it, so the lower the better!
[11] Nice in Black.

As an aside, I suspect I would/will digitise most of my Reel-to-reel tapes, and those difficult to replace SQ LPs and store as FLAC files then play them via HDMI into the unit
 
If you do use Pots for control of the channels
Could there be a pointer on the knobs to show the levels from a distance?
 
A few more random thoughts:

Has the size of this unit been established? The display must not be too small to be usable. As a guide the four VU meters on the Sony SQD2020 occupy some 10cm x 8cm which ‘feels’ about right. A display area significantly smaller than this would make the individual meters very difficult to read (particularly if you wanted to show six rather than four). A 10 x 8 cm display would require a panel height of about 14cm to look balanced. Further, you are going to have a lot of connectors on the back panel. In order to give them enough space to breath (i.e. to clearly label them and allow for the use of decent sized, quality RCA plugs on our interconnect cables) will require a lot of panel space, again a height of some 14-15cm would seem to be the least you could get away with here. So I think that means you will need a minimum of 3.5U unit height (about 6 inches in old money). I assume the rack mounting ears will be removable.

On the subject of connectors please use quality gold plated ones.

Thinking about display dimming. I’m not sure this needs to be infinitely variable; a software or physical switch stepping through Low-Medium-High-Off would be perfectly adequate.

The setting of software switches / selections should be retained at switch off. I don’t want to have to set it up every time I switch it on, although I’d be happy to be greeted by the Involve logo on the display while it sorts itself out and then reverts to my last display mode.

I agree with Duncan that a PSU standby mode is not necessary.

I’m intrigued by the possible inclusion of rear channel delay and how this would effect SQ performance. Obviously no such delay was ever considered in the original SQ era. How does the introduction of rear channel delay effect front to back and side imaging for example when the encode / decode process can only have assumed the channels would be time coherent? If anyone has tried delaying the rear channel signals from an SQ decoder before amplification (e.g. with one of those tiny little Lindy “Lip Sync” correction boxes) I’d be fascinated to hear.
 
Hi Soundfield

All good points, the size is up in the air at the moment and it is governed by the back panel. Chris will be looking at that this week. The additional delay is an idea to adjust for equal time arrival of front and rear signals for any relative position of the seated area. Also some folk may prefer to deliberately and a small amount of rear delay...still thinking about it.

Regards

Chucky
 
Also could the pots be placed as the speakers?


Center

L/F R/F


L/R R/R


SUB

I think the disposition of the channel controls on Option 10 is intuitive and looks neat. The problem comes with their relationship to the meter display. The controls are arranged Portrait and the meters are arranged Landscape so they do not map onto each other. You either have to lay the controls out Landscape (which looks odd to my mind unless you give Centre and LFE smaller or different coloured knobs to down play them visually) or you place the Centre and LFE meters on a separate screen should you ever want to look at them (they are really only secondary anyway and they won't be identifiable as channels on the vectorscope presentation either). I did warn this forum about the only legally acceptable way to show the meters!!!
 
I did warn this forum about the only legally acceptable way to show the meters!!!
you know, this VU meters doesn't have much purpose other than aesthetic so what sort of legacy you're talking about.
quadraphonic era already in very distant past and let's face it - how many of music consumers has quadraphonic mediums (LPs, reels, Q8) to hold tight to "legacy"?
to be honest, i could settle for unit with functions of "switch box" without much bells and whistles but with big beautiful analog VU which shows all channels for my
MODERN discs and files. in ideal would be if Involve build such unit with ability join and utilize UPnP and Home WiFi, rather than all those "Tape Monitor", "Phono",
"AUX", "SQ Decoder", "CD-4 Decoder" and such. the world doesn't shows willingness to return back to use analog audio reproduction at consumers level in significant
share of market for at least next 50-100 years.
 
as well would suggest to replace VU by square ones. after all that's not equipment for steamship boiler room :p
second concern, the sliders. as mentioned above, they are less reliable than rotary.

oh! and. from my aesthetics perspective, VU location in centre is the best.

I'd rather have a Quad-scope simulation than VU meters.
Although you could have both, selectable by the user.
 
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