Cat Stevens Greatest Hits - decoding difficulties?

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Colin Dunn

Active Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
74
I finally got a working CD-4 demodulator (Marantz CD-400). I've tried it on a few albums, but the "Cat Stevens Greatest Hits" album is giving me fits with distortion.

Associated equipment: Technics SL-1200 MK2, JVC 4MD-20X cartridge. Both should be more than adequate for CD-4 playback.

In the Dorren Demodulator thread, I remember seeing a post that mentioned this album causes difficulties in even good CD-4 setups.

So what should I try next to get a distortion-free decoding? Another copy of the album? Mod the SL-1200 MK2 for low-capacitance wiring? Something else?
 
Even a Q8 will be of limited use, given that most (if not all) of the recordings were made into what sounds like fake surround, not actually remixed from the MC's. Of all the labels putting out quad on a regular basis, A&M must have the worst track record, since they got some right (Carpenters) but others, like Cat, Carole King and the TJB, don't amount to much. They needed someone to supervise their quad titles, to make sure things were done right, but obviously that didn't happen.

ED :)
 
I know of NO Cat Stevens albums that are CD 4. They are SQ encoded. I have Cat Stevens Greatest Hits and it is SQ.
 
I know of NO Cat Stevens albums that are CD 4. They are SQ encoded. I have Cat Stevens Greatest Hits and it is SQ.

The one I have is specifically marked CD-4. If I found an SQ copy I'd pick it up, especially if it's only "fake" surround anyway (the advantages of CD-4 would be minimal if it doesn't fully take advantage of the format).
 
Well yer right about that. Even the SQ encoded Cat Stevens isn't all that good, but at least there is no distortion.
 
So I'm wondering ... has anyone actually gotten this album to play back and decode cleanly? And with what combination of hardware?

The only thing left to upgrade in my system would be to rewire the tonearm of the SL-1200. Now it may seem crazy to spend $210 to have that done just to play back a record with a lackluster surround mix, but I just want to be sure that CD-4 is *completely* working in my system.

Some people claim that rewiring the SL1200MK2 tonearm can yield a significant improvement for all records. But I've never been a high-end wiring kind of guy, so I am a little bit skeptical. Information seems lacking when it comes to determining the capacitance of the wiring between the table and demodulator on a stock SL1200MK2. Upgraded wiring would put it at about 140pF overall.
 
I'll have to do some research.

I have attempted this cd-4 in the past, a friend owns a copy of it. I was unimpressed enough that I didn't bother keeping any files or continuing attempts at getting a recording of this when I had access to it. I'll ask my friend if he'll ship it along with some other records he's sending sometime soon so I can borrow it and give it another go....he doesn't have a demodulator so he'll probably have no problem lending it out.

I have borrowed a Q8 of this, I recall it being a more subtle quad mix, but I don't recall it being something I would call fake. Just subtle, which A&M was known to do for many releases. Although I think a track, or a few, may have been faked....I'll have to review my disc of it.


As far as cd-4 *completely* working....well....that's just not something cd-4 really does. It's a tricky beast. Between worn records, bad pressing, and such, it's not something that I've ever found to be a set it and forget it type of format. There have been combinations of equipment that have achieved superb results, but whatever equipment you're using, you're bound to run into aggravations many many times when traveling down this path of quad collecting. The best setup I've known to exist for cd-4 was Cai's, which produced some great conversions. And I know he went through a lot of trial and error to get the setup he landed on, and who knows if that journey would've ended there.

The marantz cd-400 is a great demodulator to go with. But stay away from the cd-400B. These days I have the common audio technica cartridge that is often mentioned as an easy to get cartridge that performs well, which has performed adequately for now. I was using a signet cartridge, which I can no longer find a replacement stylus for. I've had better luck with my linear tracking turntable than the standard pivot tone arm table, but I rather dislike linear tracking, too much noise of tone arm adjustments in quiet passages. I've tried to dabble in getting MC cartridges to work, but with no luck yet. My Denon cartridge almost did it, but....not quite. Some will say that MC cartridges aren't meant for cd-4 and will never perform right. Cai's setup was proof that isn't the case, although it took a lot of money to make that happen. Also, ortofon seemed to dabble in it, one of their head amps for MC cartridges has a setting with a filter to be used for cd-4. I've not gotten my hands on one of the cartridges meant for that head amp, and gave up on that and sold it off, so I'm not sure how that would have performed. I did find out my ortofon rondo bronze was not meant to pair with that head amp, which probably explains why I could almost, but not quite, get that one to work with cd-4. I'm expecting that cartridge to come back retipped next week, and have a head amp that should be a better match for it....so....fingers crossed.
 
Armyofquad -

Thanks for the info. If you get your hands on this LP again, I'd be curious what kind of results you get.

I tried adjusting the carrier level control but was not able to get clean sound anywhere within the adjustment range. It was best with the control rotated all the way counter-clockwise on the CD-400. For another LP (Judy Collins - "Colors of the Day") it works best with the control rotated nearly all the way clockwise. That suggests carrier level varies from LP to LP. Which is OK as long as a good setting is in the adjustment range.

Mainly I'm trying to figure out if the issue is the LP, or if it's the lack of ultra-low-capacitance tonearm wiring on my turntable. A lot has been written about improvements in the SL1200-M5G due to it being equipped with oxygen-free copper wiring for low capacitance. Rather than randomly try equipment, I'm trying to take a scientific approach toward meeting the requirements for reliable CD-4 playback.
 
Some people have sworn low capacitance is important for cd-4. Others have shrugged it off as unimportant. I've heard back from my friend that I can have the LP, so that should be arriving sometime before Christmas, he always sends me awful Christmas albums this time of the year, a little joke we have.

I'm pretty certain all copies of Cat Stevens Greatest hits are cd-4. A&M switched from SQ to CD-4, and didn't do anything in both in the US, to my knowledge. Some A&M releases that were released in SQ here, were released in CD-4 in Japan (and reel, if you can find those), such as Quincy Jones - You've Got It Bad Girl and Body Heat, and Carpenters Greatest Hits.
 
Some people have sworn low capacitance is important for cd-4. Others have shrugged it off as unimportant. I've heard back from my friend that I can have the LP, so that should be arriving sometime before Christmas, he always sends me awful Christmas albums this time of the year, a little joke we have.

I'm pretty certain all copies of Cat Stevens Greatest hits are cd-4. A&M switched from SQ to CD-4, and didn't do anything in both in the US, to my knowledge. Some A&M releases that were released in SQ here, were released in CD-4 in Japan (and reel, if you can find those), such as Quincy Jones - You've Got It Bad Girl and Body Heat, and Carpenters Greatest Hits.

According to Mark Anderson's Discography, you are correct. There were no SQ releases of Greatest Hits; Greatest Hits. A&M QU-54519 (CD4), 8Q-54519 (Q8)
The SQ versions of Cat Steven's material were Buddah & The Chocolate Factory and Foreigner,
 
Here's a picture of the cover and label of this mythical, distortion-producing beast.
cover.jpglabel.jpg
 
I was using a signet cartridge, which I can no longer find a replacement stylus for.

No replacement stylus available? I thought I read that Signet was/is a high-end Audio-Technica line. Do any AT styli fit? (hopefully you didn't toss the body)
 
Even a Q8 will be of limited use, given that most (if not all) of the recordings were made into what sounds like fake surround, not actually remixed from the MC's. Of all the labels putting out quad on a regular basis, A&M must have the worst track record, since they got some right (Carpenters) but others, like Cat, Carole King and the TJB, don't amount to much. They needed someone to supervise their quad titles, to make sure things were done right, but obviously that didn't happen.

ED :)
The only Cat title i really liked in Q8 was Foreigner. It was actually discrete.
 
When A&M was pressed by Columbia, their LP's were SQ. When they switched to RCA for pressing, the LP's from that time forward were CD-4. I guess RCA wasn't interested in helping Columbia promote SQ.

All the other US CS LP's are SQ.

I know of NO Cat Stevens albums that are CD 4. They are SQ encoded. I have Cat Stevens Greatest Hits and it is SQ.
 
I had a thought today, since the question out there is whether or not anything can play this record back well, this would be a question for the cd-4 expert. So I dropped Nick a line asking him. He wrote back saying that he doesn't recall his JVC cd4-50 having a problem playing it back, but he hasn't played it since the 70s. His quad setup isn't set at the moment, but he said he will check it out when he has things setup again in the spring. I suppose if anything could play it right, it would be the cd4-50.
 
I have this CD4 album and have been able to get a clean decode from it (if you havent heard this album properly, you are missing out). A while back I purchased a brand new jvc 4md20 quad cartridge and a brand new JVC 4dd5 decoder which came with low capacitance cables. My turntable is a VPI Scout so the cables plug in right from the turntable to the decoder (which is why I bought a scout). The scout also has a screw down record clamp. The CD4 is by far the best way to get Cat Stevens in quad, much better than any of the Q8s. Is you record worn out? I dont think so.I have bought most of my cd4s on line and cant think of any that have worn out sub channels, so i dont believe for a minute that the sub channels wear out after several plays as some sources report. The things I do might help with decoding this record. First get a discwasher brush, wet it with water, put some liquid soap on it, wet the record with water and scrub that disc back and forth in the directions of the grooves. Rinse it good, then immediately blow dry with your air compressor.I have used this technique with cd4s i couldnt get to play with great results. My cartridge says that pressure over 1.5 grams will cause distortion. The Scout table has a great alignment tool which is also important. Get a new stylus and treat it very very carefully as they are incredibly easy to damage! (just purchased a new stylus on line for my JVC-$105.00) I listened to this record while I was typing this entry (Great decode especially ready,two fine people,cant keep it in and another sat night). On another Sat night, the girl singers are "dodoing" in the back channels.....very cool. IMO the quad effects are more noticable on the record than than the tapes. Happy decoding!!
 
No replacement stylus available? I thought I read that Signet was/is a high-end Audio-Technica line. Do any AT styli fit? (hopefully you didn't toss the body)

I've not found any AT styli that fit. I've found there are other styli around that will fit it, old stock of course, but the ones that are easier to come by are not anything I'd use to playback cd-4, they are usually elliptical tipped. I've done lots of looking for a replacement, and have found the only option is to wait for one to show up on ebay, and then watch the price go up and say "damn". But, of course I've kept the cartridge, and both styli that I have for it. I could probably get a stylus retipped, I was actually considering it at one point, but I figured, if I'm going to drop that much money into this, may as well dig out the ortofon and have that one done.
 
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