Columbia quad reels????

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Circular Vibes

1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
Since 2002/2003
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I have come across an interesting, but heated discussion on vinyl engine about 4 channel sound. http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71299 A user, PhilBrown, has suggested that there was a catalog number for a quad reel for Simon and Garfunkel's BOTW, that the Mike Robin reels can't possibly exist(citing his experience at Columbia at the time), and other things.

Quote
Where would an alternate quad mix come from? Certainly Halee didn't do one. You have no idea what was involved in mixing it. Just for starters, most songs were mixed a verse at a time and cut together. No one but Halee could do that. And Sony would NEVER let the tapes out of its sight. In fact, I wonder if they even know where they are.
Just for starters, The Boxer comes from 2 8 tracks running together with an additional 2 track string part on the out courses.
Sorry, don't buy it.
Phil Brown
Unquote

What I want to know is, does the name ring a bell for anyone here? It is my current assumption that he is blowing smoke, based on common knowledge on the topic around here, but I am willing (and wanting reelly bad) to be wrong. I have invited him to join us here, let's see wat happens.:confused:
 
Columbia may have considered issuing quad reels, but for whatever reason, didn't. That wouldn't prevent preparing catalog numbers.
 
Wait...the BOTW Mike Robin reel is an alternate mix? I thought that one had the same mix as the Q8 and SQ, although I don't have a Q8 or SQ of that one to compare. My friend has an SQ.....actually, I think I made a stereo CD-R of that, I may have to dig through my cdrs.....but, anyways, can anyone here confirm it's alternate or not? It being an alternate mix would make sense, since that was the case with BS&T as well...
 
I can't seem to find the source page of my info, but I SEEM to remember Jon Urban saying he heard the reel, and maybe it is a figment of my imagination that he mentioned it being an alternate mix. If I am wrong, please correct me.
 
I can't seem to find the source page of my info, but I SEEM to remember Jon Urban saying he heard the reel, and maybe it is a figment of my imagination that he mentioned it being an alternate mix. If I am wrong, please correct me.

I don't think I ever said that with regards to the BOTW album. It was the "Blood Sweat & Tears" (Second Album) that has some added material and an actual different quad mix than the Q8. (I am sure Jonathan (ArmyOfQuad) can confirm this)

As anyone who has heard the Mike Robin Bridge Over Troubled Water reel, or one of the hobby DVD-A's created from copies of this reel, the quad mix is outstanding and real and anyone who thinks it does not exist is totally out of it.

From the way I hear it, if Paul Simon knew that the Mike Robin reel was "out there", he would be mad as hell.
 
Ok, that makes more sense. Yes, the Mike Robin reels include 2 alternate BS&T mixes, but not the actual released BS&T quad mix. I don't think the guy on the thread is denying that the Mike Robin reel is out there, just that there was ever an alternate quad mix done, which it appears there wasn't.
 
I have come across an interesting, but heated discussion on vinyl engine about 4 channel sound. http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71299 A user, PhilBrown, has suggested that there was a catalog number for a quad reel for Simon and Garfunkel's BOTW, that the Mike Robin reels can't possibly exist (citing his experience at Columbia at the time), and other things.

Quote
Where would an alternate quad mix come from? Certainly Halee didn't do one. You have no idea what was involved in mixing it. Just for starters, most songs were mixed a verse at a time and cut together. No one but Halee could do that. And Sony would NEVER let the tapes out of its sight. In fact, I wonder if they even know where they are.

Just for starters, The Boxer comes from 2 8 tracks running together with an additional 2 track string part on the out courses.

Sorry, don't buy it.
Phil Brown
Unquote

What I want to know is, does the name ring a bell for anyone here? It is my current assumption that he is blowing smoke, based on common knowledge on the topic around here, but I am willing (and wanting reelly bad) to be wrong. I have invited him to join us here, let's see wat happens.:confused:

During the early days of the Columbia Quad releases (SQ and Q8), the team of Al Lawrence (Quad Sound Supervisor) and Larry Keyes (Quad Re-Mix Engineer) did most of the Quad mixes - not the original producers and engineers. This was done to get the format going and to get a lot of titles on to the market.

So it's very possible that Lawrence and Keyes did the Bridge Over Troubled Waters and Blood, Sweat & Tears Quad mixes - not Roy Halee. Most of the time the album and tape credits from Columbia didn't show the Quad credits (producer and engineer) at all. Interestingly, when BS&T Greatest Hits came out, the back of the album shows that the Quad mix and engineering was not done by Halee - but rather by an engineer at the Columbia Records Studios in San Francisco named Mike Fusaro who apparently worked with Halee at Columbia's SF Studios.

Interesting Quad trivia from back in the day.... :)
 
I played the conversion I found some time ago, which is from a reel, but no mention of the source or if it was a Mike Robin reel. I found it to be VERY discrete, and with many elements that either didn't exist, or were buried in the stereo and SQ mixes. I don't have the Q8 to compare. I can't say it is not the same mix, but it doesn't seem to be the same as my SQ LP. My SQ LP seems to have very little separation through my SQD-2020. My LP seems to be a very room filling super stereo mix. Maybe that is why I thought it was an alternate mix. I had the Q8 years ago, but lost a very large collection almost a decade ago, so I can only go by memory, whuch at least in my case is sometimes prone to mistakes. My apologies to Jon if I accidentally put words in his mouth.
 
My understanding is that Jim Reeves (http://www.reevesaudio.com/references.html) did at least one of the BS&T alternate mixes, but it wasn't used, because Halee wanted to do the mix. What's a shame is that, Jim's mix used the full album length tracks, while the released mix uses single edits for some of the songs.
 
As anyone who has heard the Mike Robin Bridge Over Troubled Water reel, or one of the hobby DVD-A's created from copies of this reel, the quad mix is outstanding and real and anyone who thinks it does not exist is totally out of it.

From the way I hear it, if Paul Simon knew that the Mike Robin reel was "out there", he would be mad as hell.

Is that because Simon didn't do the Quad mix?
 
I'm lucky enough to have the SQ, Q8 and a DVD-A copy of the Mike Robin reel of BOTW. To my ears, I will say they are all the same mix - even the SQ which through my Tate, tries it's damnedest to sound like the Q8. So, I would place money on this reel being a straight dub from a 15 ips Master Quad mix.

If there is an alternate, it either hasn't seen the light of day yet or it does not exist. Hard to say really as there have been alternate Robin Reels such as White Trash, Eli & the 16 Confession, Johnny Winter I, Sly Stone GH (features some sort of strange front channel delay) and so on.

Or he could just be misconstruing the term "alternate", and that yes, the Quad mix is an alternate to the stereo mix.

Shame Paul Simon doesn't want to push for multichannel. Some of his Columbia-era stuff was the best Quad had to offer. Some great, enjoyable, active mixes on his albums.
 
I have never heard of these Lps in Quad
I did see on E/Bay many years ago Bookends with a Matrix sticker on the LP
But that sticker usually meant QS or RM Quad and I had never heard of a Quad lp of
it so I never bid there has been a number of Stereo Lps that had a Quad sticker on them
Any one know ?


LAURA NERO "BEADS OF SWEAT" - Quadraphonic - Produced and Mixed by Jim Reeves
SIMON & GARFUNKLE - "BOOKENDS" - Quadraphonic - Produced and Mixed by Jim Reeves
 
Columbia may have considered issuing quad reels, but for whatever reason, didn't. That wouldn't prevent preparing catalog numbers.

True, although had they done so it would have been logical to use the numbers assigned to the SQ and Q8's, which were identical, with a different prefix, of course. The list price on these would have probably been slightly higher, too, but then reel tape was always a limited seller, so not a lot would have been duped even with a best selling title.

As for BOOKENDS, while it might have been considered at some point I don't remember anyone ever confirming that even an experimental quad mix had been done. BS&T's CHILD IS FATHER was apparently never completely mixed (a situation that is finally being fixed), and there are probably several other albums in Columbia's vault in the same condition. How much they saved and is still squirreled away is anybody's guess.

As for Paul Simon, I've never read any direct quote about his opinion on S&G music--mono, stereo, or quad, and what he thinks about it. What we do know is that, to date, Sony has issued various stereo versions of their catalog reissues, but no quad (obviously) and no mono, even though you could make a box set out of all the mono that was issued (SOS, PSR&T, BOOKENDS, and various single sides, including about half of BOTW). Unlike his solo material, however, he doesn't seem to have any particular control over the S&G stuff, though he might have influence as to what and how it's been rereleased in the digital age. But then the Byrds and Dylan catalogs were overhauled, but mono wasn't issued until later on, when there was deemed enough demand for them. There isn't any good reason not to issue the S&G mono mixes, but as yet that doesn't appear to be on any radar screen.

ED :)
 
As for BOOKENDS, while it might have been considered at some point I don't remember anyone ever confirming that even an experimental quad mix had been done.ED :)

In an email correspondence 11 years ago, Jim Reeves told me that he was "still bummed" that his quad mix of "Bookends" as well as "Beads of Sweat" was never released because he "put a lot of work with plenty of agonizing into" mixing them for quad. I have no reason to and don't believe he would fabricate a story of having done a quad mix. Unfortunately, he also told me, the masters were confiscated before he could make a copy for himself. So chances are that we will never hear his mix of these albums.

The quad "Bookends" unreleased mix is touched on here: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...quot-a-Columbia-SQ-release-that-never-made-it!
 
As to numbering, Bookends would have taken on a new catalog #, since it was originally KCS (later PC) 9529. It would have had a five-digit # like 3xxxx in Quad, with the appropriate prefix of CQ/PCQ on LP, CAQ for Q8, and whatever Quad prefix would have been assigned to Quad reels IF Columbia had released Quad on that format. Other 4-digit catalog numbers that received a new number for Quad release include: Blood, Sweat & Tears (II), which was 9720 in 2ch, but 30994 in Quad, and Santana (I), which was 9781 in 2ch, but 32964 in Quad.

As to Bookends and Beads of Sweat, I've never heard the Quad mix of either album, yet they exist as master tapes. Both are wonderful records and are among my 100 favorite albums. Bookends is my favorite S&G. In terms of fidelity, the MoFi CD of Bookends has bass response on Save the Life of My Child that is equalled by no other version, IMHO. Beads of Sweat features some juicy guitar work by the late, great Duane Allman.

Eli & the Thirteenth Confession does, in fact, have two unreleased Quad mixes. One of the two mixes is incomplete, and is missing the last few tracks, including the Confession.

Strictly conjecture here on my part, but there are likely reasons why several of these Quad mixes were never released:
1- The two Laura Nyro albums were shelved, since she decided to marry and have a child. There would be no forthcoming new product from her for years, until Smile. Gonna Take a Miracle, her last new album before hiatus was released when Quad was first being introduced by Columbia. Clive Davis took a similar tack when Kenny Loggins was assigned to Jim Messina to produce his 1st album as a solo album. Clive said, "it's fine if you want to become a duo, BUT then you're going to give me at least 5 studio albums and we'll promote you as a duo. You're NOT going to give me a single duo album and then break up. At that point, promoting you as a duo makes no sense at all." (Perhaps these aren't the EXACT words Clive used, but the gist is there.) That may also be the reason that Sittin' In was released in Japan in Quad, but not in the US.

2- Johnny Winter (I) had some tracks with one or two instruments, like Leland Mississippi Blues & Dallas. When I worked for CBS, I heard the unreleased Quad mix. Some of it, like I'll Drown in My Own Tears is mixed well, since there are many instruments. Those acoustic tracks are pretty blah in Quad, just as the cancelled Horowitz Plays Scriabin would have been with only Vlad on piano. Can you say Quadramonic?

3- Edgar Winter's White Trash was likely shelved because the group had disbanded and CBS wanted to promote the (then new) Edgar Winter Group (Frankenstein, etc.)

4- Perhaps CBS was more interested in promoting Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel's solo endeavors, rather than old S&G product. Bridge was S&G's biggest seller, and still riding high on the charts when Paul's solo project was released. It's also possible that Paul didn't want Bookends released in Quad, again, in favor of his solo stuff. If so, CBS must have acquiesced. Truly sad, since I can't see how Bookends could have possibly taken business away from Simon's solo Quad release(s.)
 
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