Is there an inexpensive CD-4 cart out there?

QuadraphonicQuad

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I had written a post a while ago about using the AT-440ML, which is very good for CD-4 and I highly recommend it. However, I wanted to share something with you all I have just discovered: Tonight I installed a Denon DL-110 high-output moving-coil cartridge on my Technics SL-1200. I had heard that it was an excellent stereo cartridge, and I've been wanting to try one out so I bit the bullet and bought one ($249 on Amazon). After I set it up, I put on a stereo record and I have to say it is a sweet sounding cartridge. Denon claims that the cartridge responds to 45kHz, so I decided to go ahead and run the CD-4 setup record, and lo and behold: It works beautifully for CD-4! Carrier lock remains constant and doesn't fade out on the inner grooves. (I've tried the Shure M97Xe and it tracks about half a side but just cant trace the carrier on the inner grooves.) Right now I have Carly Simon No Secrets Quadradisc playing and it is great! I'm going to try Cat Stevens Greatest Hits next; it has always been my most problematic CD-4 disc and I'm wondering how it will sound. If you can spend the bucks for the Denon DL-110, you might want to give it a try!
 
It is always a good thing when other cartridges that work well with CD-4 are discovered. At the end of the quad era, when I got into it, I thought that CD-4 records would never be playable because I never heard one that played right. Apparently, in every instance I had heard CD-4, the cartridges was inferior, or the stylus was worn out. I was even told by a friend in the Hi Fi business that the technology was not "there yet". Apparently, there were a lot of cartridge companies that slapped a shibata stylus on their cartridge and declared it to be a CD-4 cart. These carts would light the "radar" light, but played horribly. I bought a brand new Stanton cartridge that was supposed to be a CD-4 cart. It never played right. Then I switched to an Audio Technica AT14SA. A better cart than the Stanton, but by that time, I couldn't get new stylii for it. The one I had was too worn to play CD-4. I finally did find a new "old stock" stylus, It played OK, but it was a fragile performance. The stylus broke before I had gotten a lot out of it. It wasn't until way later, long after I had given up on CD-4, that a parts supplier I was talking to suggested I try the AT331LP. I did buy one from him and I was astounded by it's performance! Finally my CD-4 records were playing clean. Granted, it wasn't perfect, but for most recordings it was good. When the AT331LP was no longer availlable, (their stylii wore out quickly for CD-4, I would get about a half a year if I was lucky, I went through about 6 of them) I decided to try the AT440ML. That cart had also been discontinued, but they had it's replacement, the AT440MLa. I bought one for about $130.00. It's been the best I have ever used, and the stylii last a long, long, time. I'm on stylus number two now, and the first one lasted a good 10 years. The first one would still be good for stereo and matrix quad, if I used separate turntables for that, however, I play everything on one table. So you can probably see why I am so gung ho on this cart. I hope you have a similar experience with the Denon cart. Incidently, on the AT440MLa, Audio Technica never claimed more than 20 Kilohertz high end. Apparently, it will do much more. Maybe I will try the Denon cart someday when I'm feeling like I have some cash to spend, but for now I will stick with what I know works well. At least I don't need a preamp.
The Quadfather

I had written a post a while ago about using the AT-440ML, which is very good for CD-4 and I highly recommend it. However, I wanted to share something with you all I have just discovered: Tonight I installed a Denon DL-110 high-output moving-coil cartridge on my Technics SL-1200. I had heard that it was an excellent stereo cartridge, and I've been wanting to try one out so I bit the bullet and bought one ($249 on Amazon). After I set it up, I put on a stereo record and I have to say it is a sweet sounding cartridge. Denon claims that the cartridge responds to 45kHz, so I decided to go ahead and run the CD-4 setup record, and lo and behold: It works beautifully for CD-4! Carrier lock remains constant and doesn't fade out on the inner grooves. (I've tried the Shure M97Xe and it tracks about half a side but just cant trace the carrier on the inner grooves.) Right now I have Carly Simon No Secrets Quadradisc playing and it is great! I'm going to try Cat Stevens Greatest Hits next; it has always been my most problematic CD-4 disc and I'm wondering how it will sound. If you can spend the bucks for the Denon DL-110, you might want to give it a try!
 
Quadfather...Question...How do you wear out your stylus' so fast. I have and use AT14Sa, AT15S and AT15Sa. The AT15S has been on my Dual CS 721 for the past 5 years and the stylus is still like new. I have a stylus microscope and the diamond is inspected quite often (mostly for crud).

What are you doing? Setting the cartridge weight too high? Using a hammer to drive the diamond into the groove?

Before CD 4 I used a Shure M91ED on a Dual 1229 from 1970 to the present. It still has it's original stylus and showes no wear and plays like new.

Just askin'...
 
A fellow on youtube has a video where he used a cheap, $35 Numark Groove Tool cartridge for CD-4. I'm new to quad, after picking up a Toshiba SY 404 demodulator. I'm getting sound out of all 4 speakers, but I think I need to tweak the unit a bit....figure out how to get it to work the best.

Cheers

Charles
 
It is always a good thing when other cartridges that work well with CD-4 are discovered. At the end of the quad era, when I got into it, I thought that CD-4 records would never be playable because I never heard one that played right. Apparently, in every instance I had heard CD-4, the cartridges was inferior, or the stylus was worn out. I was even told by a friend in the Hi Fi business that the technology was not "there yet". Apparently, there were a lot of cartridge companies that slapped a shibata stylus on their cartridge and declared it to be a CD-4 cart. These carts would light the "radar" light, but played horribly. I bought a brand new Stanton cartridge that was supposed to be a CD-4 cart. It never played right. Then I switched to an Audio Technica AT14SA. A better cart than the Stanton, but by that time, I couldn't get new stylii for it. The one I had was too worn to play CD-4. I finally did find a new "old stock" stylus, It played OK, but it was a fragile performance. The stylus broke before I had gotten a lot out of it. It wasn't until way later, long after I had given up on CD-4, that a parts supplier I was talking to suggested I try the AT331LP. I did buy one from him and I was astounded by it's performance! Finally my CD-4 records were playing clean. Granted, it wasn't perfect, but for most recordings it was good. When the AT331LP was no longer availlable, (their stylii wore out quickly for CD-4, I would get about a half a year if I was lucky, I went through about 6 of them) I decided to try the AT440ML. That cart had also been discontinued, but they had it's replacement, the AT440MLa. I bought one for about $130.00. It's been the best I have ever used, and the stylii last a long, long, time. I'm on stylus number two now, and the first one lasted a good 10 years. The first one would still be good for stereo and matrix quad, if I used separate turntables for that, however, I play everything on one table. So you can probably see why I am so gung ho on this cart. I hope you have a similar experience with the Denon cart. Incidently, on the AT440MLa, Audio Technica never claimed more than 20 Kilohertz high end. Apparently, it will do much more. Maybe I will try the Denon cart someday when I'm feeling like I have some cash to spend, but for now I will stick with what I know works well. At least I don't need a preamp.
The Quadfather
I'm starting to wonder what I've gotten into here... lol. I just really like the sound of this Ortofon cart that I currently have and have reservations about getting a replacement that will work with CD-4 but not be as well matched with the rest of my setup for regular LPs (and SQ, etc). And I've gone thru table/cart set ups over the years like shoes. The amp and speakers have remained the same, though. And I found what sounds best. Well, at least I have the Lafayette CD-4 demod now. It's a start anyway...
 
My styluses are not wearing out fast. That was the older AT331LA. I use the AT440MLa now. The last stylus I used lasted about 10 years, that's a pretty good run considering I usually run it about 3 hours per session, two nights a week. Now granted, I don't always use the phonograph, but I use it a lot, and for all records, not just CD-4. The AT331 stylii did not hold up for CD-4 but they would still be usable for stereo. They were a linear contact type, and may not have been a true shibata variant. The AT440MLa stylii have lasted a long time. I do have to track a little heavy, about 2 3/4 grams but it causes no harm. The AT440MLa stylus is a microline type, and works well with CD-4, and doesn't lose it's ability to correctly play it well. We have to use what is availlable, and this cart is a good one at a fair price.

Quadfather...Question...How do you wear out your stylus' so fast. I have and use AT14Sa, AT15S and AT15Sa. The AT15S has been on my Dual CS 721 for the past 5 years and the stylus is still like new. I have a stylus microscope and the diamond is inspected quite often (mostly for crud).

What are you doing? Setting the cartridge weight too high? Using a hammer to drive the diamond into the groove?

Before CD 4 I used a Shure M91ED on a Dual 1229 from 1970 to the present. It still has it's original stylus and showes no wear and plays like new.

Just askin'...
 
2 3/4 grams? Why so heavy? I've been keeping mine at 1 1/2 grams sense I can remember.

Even a 74 I'm just a curious lad.
 
2 3/4 grams? Why so heavy? I've been keeping mine at 1 1/2 grams sense I can remember.

Even a 74 I'm just a curious lad.

2 grams is the recommended tracking force for CD-4 playback. This allows the stylus to track the subcarrier without damage.
If the tracking force is too light, it will 'rattle' (for lack of a better word) in the groove and shear off the ultrasonic subcarrier.
It might seem counterintuitive, but 1 1/2 grams will do more groove damage than 2 3/4 grams.
 
In 1972 (I believe) I bought a new copy of Hugo Montenegro's "Love theme from the Godfather" in CD 4. I was forced to replace, not from groove damage, but from too many scratches and pops. Played a lot at 1 1/2 grams with both the M91ED and the AT15s.
Going up 1/2 gram sure won't make that much difference on stylus and record wear.

But thanks for that tid bit. I will look into that.
 
In 1972 (I believe) I bought a new copy of Hugo Montenegro's "Love theme from the Godfather" in CD 4. I was forced to replace, not from groove damage, but from too many scratches and pops. Played a lot at 1 1/2 grams with both the M91ED and the AT15s.
Going up 1/2 gram sure won't make that much difference on stylus and record wear.

But thanks for that tid bit. I will look into that.

It isn't a "tid bit", it is an important element of the CD-4/Shibata playback specifications, but I understand where your condescension comes from. The fact that you chose a weapon for your avatar says a lot, and it is clear that we come from totally different worlds. I was just trying to help. Yee Haw !!!
 
Hey! I appreciate the information. I have never been to old to learn new things and I do thank you.

As far as my avitar is concerned...That' what I carry on a daily basis. A Kimber UCC II .45 ACP. Unlike Canadians (who I have great respect for) who are luck if they are only allowed to carry a sharp stick.

My father was born in Manitoba.

EEee Hawwww...
 
Hey! I appreciate the information. I have never been to old to learn new things and I do thank you.

As far as my avitar is concerned...That' what I carry on a daily basis. A Kimber UCC II .45 ACP. Unlike Canadians (who I have great respect for) who are luck if they are only allowed to carry a sharp stick.

My father was born in Manitoba.

EEee Hawwww...

I don't know what that is, but it must be very impressive if it makes you feel important. I am always amazed at the things some people will do to make others think they have power. Do you also have a pit bull and a bullet-proof Hummer? :rolleyes:

As for Canadians, most of us don't feel the need for sharp sticks (or your respect for that matter). It might come as a shock to you, but I can go out of my home completely unarmed ... and without fear. What exactly are you afraid of? :yikes

By the way, I used to go by 'The Bushmaster' too, but then that Brazilian fad came along and I had to change my name. I just couldn't see myself as 'The Baldmaster'. :smokin
 
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Damn! You've been peekin' over my fence. As a matter of fact I do have an American Red Nosed Pit Bull Terrier. She loves anyone on two legs and will lick you to death. She especially likes ears.

Hummer? Naw...Just a '98 Chevy Silverado 4X4.

"The Bushmaster" Not my idea. My hunting friends gave me that name. I guess I earned it so to speak.

I've been around firearms all my life and I carry just because I can.

Say...You aren't trying to make me mad are you?:D
 
It's been a long time since I adjusted that. It might have been 1 3/4 grams. I do know it was something and 3/4 grams. Perhaps I should go and dig up my old posts and see what it was. I do remember that I used to run my stereo cart at 1 1/2 grams before I got into quad. Actually, I just went and looked. It is 1 3/4 grams. I guess I conflated "1 3/4" with "almost 2 grams" anyway, if you can get away with tracking lighter, like 1 1/2 grams, by all means, do it. My Marantz table has a heavier tone arm, and it just takes a little more weight. Not sure why. Maybe after break in I should lighten it up a little and see how it does.(it's long past break in now)

2 3/4 grams? Why so heavy? I've been keeping mine at 1 1/2 grams sense I can remember.

Even a 74 I'm just a curious lad.
 
Quadfather...I'm still going to look into the 2 gram proposal. Thanks.

Quadzilla...Missed you. Oh by the way. The mean dog that roams my place is an American Eskimo Dog. The pit bull is a sweetheart.
 
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