HiRez Poll Mahavishnu Orchestra, The - BIRDS OF FIRE [SACD]

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Rate the SACD of Mahavishnu Orchestra - BIRDS OF FIRE


  • Total voters
    57
I'm honestly not qualified to vote on this....I mean....I bought this on a whim and I really assumed I'd like it. Well, I don't. Really surprises me....

This album is one of those 'love it or hate it' things. So your reaction is not surprising. As I've noted earlier, when I first heard this album my reaction was - WTF? Then I got to love it over subsequent listening sessions. Also, I can deploy it as a countermeasure when my wife plays that first Carrie Underwood album. LOL
 
That's what I hear too. It's the opposite of the stereo mix (which has violin - keys - guitar )

It's also the opposite of an older fan-made decode that I have, made from the SQ LP (which is much less discrete, but the front instrumental placements are still obvious: violin - keys - guitar)

I wonder if AF screwed up the channel assignments?

I just listened to this for the first time (on SACD, I previously owned the Q8) and I think there may be something to this theory. I only noticed it on the track 'One Word' which starts off with a drum roll that pans around the room. My ears immediately pricked up because on the SACD it pans in an 'X' pattern (FL, SR, SL, FR) around the room, whereas my Q8 was a circular swirl (something like FR, SR, SL, FL etc.) and then in the drum solo in the middle you can clearly hear the snare drum in the rear right with the reverbs/echoes of it in the front left.

As most quad fans know, diagonally panned front-rear instrument placement is the hallmark of swapped channels. I'll have to listen to the individual channels on headphones to see if there are more hallmarks of diagonal pans before I make a definitive conclusion.

@ssully - are the the instrument placements in the front speakers the opposite of the stereo mix on all tracks, ie if this mix were to be corrected would it make more sense to swap front left and front right than surround left and surround right?
 
Unfortunately the situation is complicated.

I've used used 'One Word' as my exploration track. Comments are based on careful listening and manipulating tracks in Audition, and on looking at the waveforms (I did a 'laser drop' of the SACD).

In the front L R of the SQ the array of instruments is clearly:
violin - keys - guitar, as noted (and also true of the original stereo mix).
In the front L R of SACD, it's clearly
guitar - keys - violin (the opposite of the SQ fronts and the 2ch mix)

In surround L R of the SQ things get weird. Unlike the SACD, there is a lot non-drum content in the surrounds. And the positions of instruments from L to R is not as obvious as in the fronts -- there's a lot of everything in both surround channels. IOW the surround SQ channels are not nearly as discrete as on the SACD. However, listening to just the SQ surround channels 'in stereo', while panning one channel hard left and the other hard right, then reversing the panning, it becomes clear that the surround array is:
guitar - keys - violin
(though the separation is very much less than in the front channels).
In other words, in the SQ, the surround channel instrument array is the opposite of the SQ front channels!

So that's an 'x' pattern right there....*on the SQ*

And what about the surround L R of the SACD?

The SACD is extremely discrete, so it's hard to go by the placement of the electric instruments. The surround channel contents are almost entirely drums. You can *barely* hear bleed-through that seems to match the front channel array (guitar-keys-violin). However, simply *looking at* the waveforms, makes things clearer -- I can see areas where the waveforms differ a lot between surround L and R channels. I've attached a screen cap showing such an area. Green waveforms are SQ, white are SACD, top to bottom is FL, FR, SL, SR . The upshot is...in those areas, the shape of the SACD L R surrounds tracks the shape of the surround L R of the SQ! (Which also means the surround SACD channel array is 'guitar - keys - violin', as the bleedthrough indicated... and matches the SACD front channel instrument array)

In short,
front channels: SACD is reversed L-R compared to SQ (and compared to 2ch original mix)
rear channels: SACD has the same L-R array as the SQ surround channels and the SACD front channels; but the SQ surround L-R is reversed compared to the SQ front L-R


So.

For the SACD, it looks like just swapping the L and R, in both front and back, would restore the original instrument array (considering the 2 channel mix as 'original').

For the SQ, it looks like *just* the rear channel L R should be swapped.

Unless they meant it to be an X!

Would love for someone to corroborate or contradict these findings --
 

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So in correcting the channels for SACD - they applied the fix in the F rather than the R channels, this created another variant not true to mixes intent. That's the deal on that one?
 
To me that seems an odd way to put it, but yeah, maybe that's how it happened. Or, AF simply confused left with right, across the board. At least their fronts and surrounds are 'in synch' in terms of left-right placement of instruments. The SQ's aren't.

Notice too how vastly more discrete the SACD (analog quad tapes --> 4ch digital) is, compared to the SQ (analog quad tapes --> matrix encoding > turntable cartridge --> matrixed digital --> software decode*).



(*NB decoding was by an obsolete version of OD's software, SQ/II; it would be interesting to hear/see what the current version -- 'Phoenix' -- would produce, in terms of discreteness)
 
I had a look at the entire album last night in my DAW and in a nutshell, and the bad news is I think the front left and front right channels are swapped but the good news is it doesn't massively impact the integrity of the mix. I'll try to explain.

My normal methodology for checking for incorrect channel assignment is to check some or all of the following:

1. Check for side panned tracks, ie things that are in the front left and rear left, or front right and rear right. If you're hearing the same instrument in only the front left and rear right (or vice versa) then this usually indicates a channel assignment error.

2. Check to see if reverbs from front channels can be heard in the rears, or vice versa. For example if you had a guitar in the front left and there were reverbs in the rear speakers you might expect to hear the reverb more in the surround left speaker. This method isn't definitive but it adds weight to a conclusion.

3. Do "ping pong" effects (ie swirls and moving instruments) move in a natural, logical way?


For this album, #1 is out because there are absolutely no side panned instruments on the whole of the album - most of the album is discrete drums in the rear speakers, but when there are instruments in the rear speakers, like the backing keyboards on Birds Of Fire (track 1) they are entirely pushed to the rears. #2 doesn't work because the reverbs used from front to rear (and vice-versa) are completely mono. For example during the drum solo in the middle of 'One Word' the drum mix across the rears is a stereo mix, but the reverbs from the drums in the two front channels are effectively mono. I'll get to #3 in a moment, but first there are two exceptions to what I've said so far that indicate the front channels are swapped.

The first is track 4, 'Sapphire Bullets Of Pure Love' (which is more a collection of random noises than a song) but the waveforms seem to show a decided channel swap. It's possible this track was even some kind of upmix/unwrap because there's a lot of stuff where audio information in the front speakers looks duplicated in the rear speakers at lower volume. I've put red circles around audio events that I feel are good examples of parts that identical or similar between front and rears, and as you can see when they're identical, it's between pairs of front left/rear right or front right/rear left channels, which would create two diagonal soundfields and probably make smoke come out of the ears of the SQ encoder.

maha.jpg

The second exception is the following track, 'Thousand Island Park' which has the acoustic piano in all four speakers. There's no way to really show this visually, but if you listen to the front pair of speakers the piano is in stereo with the higher pitched keys panned toward the right, whereas if you listen to the rear speakers, the piano is in stereo with the higher pitched keys toward the left.

And finally, addressing point #3, ping pong effects. There's only one of these in the whole album, and it's the snare drum roll that starts track 7 'One Word'. On the SACD as-is, it starts in the front right (briefly), moves to the front left, then goes diagonally to the rear right, then to the rear left, then to the front right in a weird sort of 'Z' pattern. If you swap the front left and right channels, the pan starts in the front left speaker and does one and a half slow swirls around the room, ending in the rear right. To me that seems much more logical than a hectic 'Z' pattern.

Also, in thinking about it, I don't think the kind of quadraphonic joystick they were using back then would allow them to do diagonal pans. Correct me if I'm wrong, but lets say you were moving your joystick from front left to rear right - when you had the joystick equidistant between the two points, wouldn't that be in the center of the joystick pad, and thus, wouldn't sound be coming equally out of all four speakers?

maha2.jpg
(This is the VU meters during the final (loudest) part of the drum roll as it's moving from front left to surround right on the uncorrected SACD. It clearly shows the FL and SR channels as being loud and the FR and SL channels as being quieter) something I don't think is possible other than the result of a channel swap.)


So, in conclusion these are my reasons for thinking the front left and front right channels are swapped on the SACD:

1. If you switch them, the instrument layout (violin - keys - guitar) in the front speakers of the quad mix matches the instrument layout in both the stereo version and the SQ vinyl.

2. Sapphire Bullets of Pure Love and Thousand Island Park both have diagonally panned information between front and rear channels, which is an SQ encoding no-no for the same reason that there's never any center panned information in the rear speakers of SQ mixes.

3. A 1.5 rotations 'drum swirl' at the beginning of One Word seems much more logical than the 'double Z' pattern that the snare takes on the SACD as it is now. In fact I can't think of any Columbia quad mixes that have diagonal pans, where there are piles of examples of swirls, including a bunch on Santana 'Abraxas', the flute solo on Just You 'N' Me From Chicago VI, the bass guitar at the beginning of the O'Jays 'For The Love Of Money', etc. etc.


I agree that the case for this having swapped channels isn't a slam dunk like some of the other ones that myself and others have discovered, but I'm pretty confident that I'm right. To be honest with this album it's not as diastrous as others - I think the only time it would bug me is the 'One Word' drum swirl. By the same token, I hope that if AF re-press this title that they do correct the quad transfer and swap the front left and front right channels.
 
Thanks for that. You clearly know you sh*t. That is slightly over my head, but now I want a corrected version. If somebody can do the corrected DVD A I will gladly pay for disc/postage or swap no problems.
 
I was a fan of this band and McLaughlin back in the day and still have the first U.S. stereo vinyls. I always thought Birds of Fire was overly bright, and the Quad SACD seems to dial back the treble somewhat. Alas, my turntable is no longer hooked up so I'm only going by memory.

I like the discreetness of the Quad. Although I never thought the audio quality was all that great, the sound is good as compared to a couple other CD releases I've listened to over the years. I'm probably in the minority but I prefer The Inner Mounting Flame, even though Birds of Fire is technically better and more musically adventurous.

I think about a 7 for audio quality, 8 for the mix, and an 8 to 9 for the music. So it's an 8 for me.
 
Has anyone notified AF of this issue yet?

I haven't, because I was waiting for someone to tell me I was wrong/full of crap and then wade in to a big argument about it. That's usually how things go on forums, isn't it? ;)

If the consensus is that I'm right, I'd be glad to let Marshall or AF know, unless Brian Moura wants to do it. If someone wants me to do it, PM me contact info.

ETA: I'm not sure how much hope there is of getting this re-pressed, I read over on SH.tv that they won't be re-pressing the BS&T disc with the off-center stereo mix. I guess it depends if they feel like they can sell a second pressing of a corrected disc or not.
 
Wow....I have to say, for an audiophile label to release product with such glaring issues, and then not do something about it to correct the issue....it really doesn't reflect that well on their image, and doesn't leave one with an impression that they are a company producing something of superior quality. This certainly doesn't leave Audio Fidelity looking like an audiophile label. I'd expect something like this from a budget label that just carelessly slaps whatever transfer from whatever tape onto a disc and call it good.
 
No, they won't be repressing Birds of Fire, we are lucky we got it at all. I would email Gus Skinas at the Super Audio Center http://www.superaudiocenter.com/ for his opinion (on channel assignment or orientation) and include a link to this thread, rather than emailing AF at this time.
 
Wow....I have to say, for an audiophile label to release product with such glaring issues, and then not do something about it to correct the issue....it really doesn't reflect that well on their image, and doesn't leave one with an impression that they are a company producing something of superior quality. This certainly doesn't leave Audio Fidelity looking like an audiophile label. I'd expect something like this from a budget label that just carelessly slaps whatever transfer from whatever tape onto a disc and call it good.

I guess that this falls into the category of "ignorance is bliss." I didn't notice anything wrong with the SACD quad version and apparently neither did at least 27 other people. I'll have to listen even more closely.
 
Wow....I have to say, for an audiophile label to release product with such glaring issues, and then not do something about it to correct the issue....it really doesn't reflect that well on their image, and doesn't leave one with an impression that they are a company producing something of superior quality. This certainly doesn't leave Audio Fidelity looking like an audiophile label. I'd expect something like this from a budget label that just carelessly slaps whatever transfer from whatever tape onto a disc and call it good.

It's par for the course in my opinion. There's a thread on this forum about swapped channels isn't there? So AF is nowhere the first to make mistakes. And what about EMI (now under Universal) releasing the Aqualung boxset at $130 with audio glitches showing up on various parts of the BD and DVD. Did they ever fix that? No. That really didn't hurt their reputation.

Right or wrong, as consumers we just have to take it.
 
Well if Jon or Brian had heard an advance test of it that may have prevented this.
 
Well if Jon or Brian had heard an advance test of it that may have prevented this.

I don't know, I'm just postulating but I imagine given the pre-notice Jon and Brian have of these AF Surround titles (you don't have to be a genius to deduce from their comments every now and again they are in communication with AF and are in the know with these discs at the very least) they may even have heard this one in advance but whether they did or how much time or opportunity they had to scrutinise the channel assignment and so on, who knows, you'd have to ask them and they probably aren't at liberty to say.

This is a slightly sore topic with me because I've been saying for some time that members like steelydave, ArmyOfQuad, rtbluray should be beta testers for these new releases, between them they have shown time and again on the open forum they have the analytical ear - and the analytical gear to prove what their ears tell them - and many times they rip these mixes apart and tell us of their findings which are often surprising to say the least.

Anybody holding out for a corrected version of this one may have an interminably long wait imho.. Just my 2c's.. back to work.
 
Wow, I've always loved the Columbia SQ lp of this classic jazz fusion album, but the 4.0 SACD blows it away. To be able to hear the discrete quad mix with this level of clarity and balance is just phenomenal. My QRX-7001 has a pretty decent SQ decoder, but you realize after hearing something like this how smeared things become with matrix quad. Great album, great quad mix.
 
Wow, I've always loved the Columbia SQ lp of this classic jazz fusion album, but the 4.0 SACD blows it away. To be able to hear the discrete quad mix with this level of clarity and balance is just phenomenal. My QRX-7001 has a pretty decent SQ decoder, but you realize after hearing something like this how smeared things become with matrix quad. Great album, great quad mix.

Have you considered adding one of the Involve Surround Master SQ Vinyl Edition Units to your Quad rig?
Time and again I am just amazed at what that little box of tricks can do with SQ records.
 
Have you considered adding one of the Involve Surround Master SQ Vinyl Edition Units to your Quad rig?
Time and again I am just amazed at what that little box of tricks can do with SQ records.

Yeah, I might look into that at some point. My QRX-7001 has been restored recently and really decodes SQ quite discretely. I guess in the case of Birds of Fire it just sounds like there's a bit of a haze or fog over everything that's really lifted with the SACD. Still love my quad LPs, though!
 
Yeah, I might look into that at some point. My QRX-7001 has been restored recently and really decodes SQ quite discretely. I guess in the case of Birds of Fire it just sounds like there's a bit of a haze or fog over everything that's really lifted with the SACD. Still love my quad LPs, though!

Well fwiw I may be new to buying and transferring SQ LPs physically myself but I've heard many an SQ conversion over the years and I've been going through a few of my old ones, comparing them to what the Involve unit can do, in a nutshell, even though there are many excellent ones, more often than not the Surround Master knocks them into a cocked hat imho.
 
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