HiRez Poll Mahavishnu Orchestra, The - BIRDS OF FIRE [SACD]

ar surround said:

I guess that this falls into the category of "ignorance is bliss." I didn't notice anything wrong with the SACD quad version and apparently neither did at least 27 other people. I'll have to listen even more closely.

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The opposite L-R array of instruments in the front channels, compared to the stereo mix most of us grew up with, is hard to miss. It's also the opposite of the SQ decode that I have.

The rear channels of the SACD on the other hand are NOT the opposite of the SQ mix, on One Word.

So that comports with the idea that AF reversed the front channels, as Steelydave's analysis indicates too.

The only oddity is that , for One Word at least, it sounded to me like the rear channels of the SQ (guitar-keys-violin) are opposite of the SQ fronts (violin-keys-guitar). I can't say if that's due to the original quad LP being that way, or some post processing. But I'm going to inspect Sapphire Bullets and Thousand Island Park in light of that (both of those tracks are side one btw, while One Word is side two...so, perhaps two different master tapes ...I wonder if issues differ between them?)

fredblue said:

I don't know, I'm just postulating but I imagine given the pre-notice Jon and Brian have of these AF Surround titles (you don't have to be a genius to deduce from their comments every now and again they are in communication with AF and are in the know with these discs at the very least) they may even have heard this one in advance but whether they did or how much time or opportunity they had to scrutinise the channel assignment and so on, who knows, you'd have to ask them and they probably aren't at liberty to say.

This is a slightly sore topic with me because I've been saying for some time that members like steelydave, ArmyOfQuad, rtbluray should be beta testers for these new releases, between them they have shown time and again on the open forum they have the analytical ear - and the analytical gear to prove what their ears tell them - and many times they rip these mixes apart and tell us of their findings which are often surprising to say the least.

Anybody holding out for a corrected version of this one may have an interminably long wait imho.. Just my 2c's.. back to work.

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I agree that some more ears from here as beta testers would be good...for example, perhaps that would have prevented the whole Wakeman/Six Wives debacle.

As long as one is willing to do a 'laserdrop', making a corrected version of the tracks isn't too difficult (using Audicity for example). (Of course if these AF releases had simply been put out in a sensible format like DVDA, BluRay or DTS/DD in the first place, rather than the absurd (and tightly locked) DSD format, there'd be no need for tedious real-time A/D conversion step....)

I've already done the laserdrop so I'll be testing various re-channelled mixes of this.

clg1977 said:

Yeah, I might look into that at some point. My QRX-7001 has been restored recently and really decodes SQ quite discretely. I guess in the case of Birds of Fire it just sounds like there's a bit of a haze or fog over everything that's really lifted with the SACD. Still love my quad LPs, though!

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In terms of discreteness, there's just no comparison between the SQ decode I have, and the SACD. Look up there at the waveforms I posted, check out the front channels in the first third of the graphic -- on the SACD, there's almost complete silence during the drum solo of One Word, while the same place in the SQ front channels have tons of content. Is that the case when you play the SQ LP?

How can something like this happen? I would assume that the analog master tape is correct, so the mix up must occur somewhere in the digital (DSD) medium? I can understand if both sets of channels got reversed, but only one set...that seems bizarre. (Of course, the less one knows about a business or skill, the simpler it seems until one tries it.)

ssully said:

The opposite L-R array of instruments in the front channels, compared to the stereo mix most of us grew up with, is hard to miss. It's also the opposite of the SQ decode that I have.

The rear channels of the SACD on the other hand are NOT the opposite of the SQ mix, on One Word.

So that comports with the idea that AF reversed the front channels, as Steelydave's analysis indicates too.

The only oddity is that , for One Word at least, it sounded to me like the rear channels of the SQ (guitar-keys-violin) are opposite of the SQ fronts (violin-keys-guitar). I can't say if that's due to the original quad LP being that way, or some post processing. But I'm going to inspect Sapphire Bullets and Thousand Island Park in light of that (both of those tracks are side one btw, while One Word is side two...so, perhaps two different master tapes ...I wonder if issues differ between them?)

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Yeah, I plan to do some more comparisons tonight between the SQ lp and the SACD. The front L and R are definitely swapped on the SACD compared to the SQ decoded LP on my QRX-7001. However, part of me wonders if the SQ lp was screwed up in some way when it was encoded to SQ from the original studio quad mix? The reason I ask is because there's a track on the 4.0 SACD that circles perfectly around you in a clockwise fashion (I don't remember the name off hand.) I want to compare this to the LP because I don't remember it circling perfectly. I'll post an update later tonight. If the SACD orientation was screwed up, I would think that the circle effect would not work.

ssully said:

I agree that some more ears here as beta testers would be good...for example, perhaps that would have prevented the whole Wakeman/Six Wives debacle.

As long as one is willing to do a 'laserdrop', making a corrected version of the tracks isn't too difficult (using Audicity for example). (Of course if these AF releases had simply been put out in a sensible format like DVDA, BluRay or DTS/DD in the first place, rather than the absurd (and tightly locked) DSD format, there'd be no need for tedious real-time A/D conversion step....)

I've already done the laserdrop so I'll be testing various re-channelled mixes of this.

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I don't really want to go over all that stuff, I was one of the testers and believe me questions were asked as to the source of 6 Wives.. and we were told - and I believe told in good faith - that it was taken from the master tapes. It wasn't an album let alone a Quad mix I was familiar with so I went on the info given, put it to one side and set about testing menus, functionality etc. Please let's leave it at that.

I look forward to the results of your channel analysis and how the various channel reassignments work out. I think you and Dave have sussed it already from what you've both said but it would be good to know for sure which is the correct way to remap it all.

fwiw I'm itching to run the Birds Of Fire SQ LP thru the Surround Master SQ Vinyl Unit and into a MCh interface to check out how it really decodes the disc but I'm not in a position to scrutinise the 4 stems until I have a MOTU or similar interface that I know definitively will run on El Capitan (I regret upgrading the OS lots of things have stopped working!) oh and that the replacement interface ideally not cost an arm and a leg! :yikes

ar surround said:

How can something like this happen? I would assume that the analog master tape is correct, so the mix up must occur somewhere in the digital (DSD) medium? I can understand if both sets of channels got reversed, but only one set...that seems bizarre. (Of course, the less one knows about a business or skill, the simpler it seems until one tries it.)

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The Quad Master tape could have had channel assignments incorrectly marked on it perhaps?

quicksrt said:

Well if Jon or Brian had heard an advance test of it that may have prevented this.

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Here's the deal. I have in fact listened to some of the pre-release test pressings of these quad SACDs, and in fact, I actually DID find one that had channels swapped and because of that discovery, the disc was corrected before it went into mass production!! HOWEVER - and let me make this clear, I don't always know the material OR I don't have a Q8/QR/LP decode of a particular album in my library to compare a test SACD to.

A disc like Birds of Fire is not one of the albums that I knew intimately. In fact, although I know I owned the SQ and probably had a cutout Q8 of it along the way, it's not a title I was into back in the day so I do not know it like you guys do. If in fact I had listened to this pre-release, and I am not saying I did or didn't, I would have NEVER noticed that channels were reversed because it would have sounded wonderful to me. When I listened to the retail SACD with my wife we both thought it sounded great. I didn't care that something was in the left and not the right. Why? How could I be so clueless? BECAUSE IT SOUNDED GREAT TO ME.

From what I am reading, we're not talking about a disc release with the lead vocals in the RL channel and the background singers in the FR. It's instrumental stuff and when listened to without prejudice or foreknowledge, it sounds damn sweet.

So, just because a disc is QC'd by a tester and there is no basis for comparison, what you're looking for is something that a) Works, and b) Sounds good.

I am not saying that those who love this album do not deserve the mix to be perfect, all I'm saying here is that it sounds pretty damn good to me.

DuncanS said:

The Quad Master tape could have had channel assignments incorrectly marked on it perhaps?

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or..........who's to say that the original SQ/Q8 were swapped and the SACD has the actual original channel positions?

JonUrban said:

or..........who's to say that the original SQ/Q8 were swapped and the SACD has the actual original channel positions?

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With you on this.. it's been discussed a lot over the years about Q8 cart channel screw ups but I'm pretty sure a number of SQ records also have their channels screwed up.. but nobody could tell (because the old SQ decoders weren't upto much.. or just no one cared enough!) ..once I've got a working interface installed I'll start a QQ thread about it (Neil Diamond's "Serenade" SQ LP "Q 69067", pressed in Holland, I'm convinced channels are wrongly
assigned but I will be able to confirm either way with a motu or whatever.) Sorry for going OT, just realised this is a Poll..

steelydave said:

I agree that the channel swap on this album isn't catastrophic by any means, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with wanting things to be as good as they can be either, within reason.

I have encountered a few Columbia Q8's with swapped channels, off the top of my head I remember Dave Mason (self-titled) having the rears swapped on one copy I had, and then correct on the next copy. I also had a copy of Santana & McLaughlin's 'Love Devotion Surrender' that had the fronts and rears swapped on one side. So it did happen, although not as often or consistently as it did with the ABC/GRT quad tapes.

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I LOVE that 1974 Dave Mason LP, it's a hoot from word go with flute supremo Tim Weisberg on the opening track fluttering away all over the place! It would be amazing if AF gave it the Surround SACD treatment but I imagine they'd go with "It's Like You Never Left" if they were to go for any of his Quads at all.. and that seems doubtful, one of those artists that nobody really remembers these days, sadly..

I agree that the channel swap on this album isn't catastrophic by any means, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with wanting things to be as good as they can be either, within reason.

I appreciate that AF's margins on these titles are probably pretty thin, but at $30 retail, they are charging a premium price (almost 3x the price of a standard reissue on CD) and I think there's a slightly higher duty of care with these. If I'd paid $12 for this on Wounded Bird or something I probably wouldn't have even raised the issue at all.

I have encountered a few Columbia Q8's with swapped channels, off the top of my head I remember Dave Mason (self-titled) having the rears swapped on one copy I had, and then correct on the next copy. I also had a copy of Santana & McLaughlin's 'Love Devotion Surrender' that had the fronts and rears swapped on one side. So it did happen, although not as often or consistently as it did with the ABC/GRT quad tapes.


I should say that channel swap aside, sonically speaking the AF version of the quad mix is easily the best I've ever heard this album sound. The acoustic instruments (guitar, piano) especially sound incredibly lifelike, in a way they never have on any previous version, even the stereo mix on the SACD. It's like a layer of fuzz has been lifted off of everything.

fredblue said:

I LOVE that 1974 Dave Mason LP, it's a hoot from word go with flute supremo Tim Weisberg on the opening track fluttering away all over the place! It would be amazing if AF gave it the Surround SACD treatment but I imagine they'd go with "It's Like You Never Left" if they were to go for any of his Quads at all.. and that seems doubtful, one of those artists that nobody really remembers these days, sadly..

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Yes I completely agree, and 'Its Like You Never Left' is just as good in my opinion, demo quality stuff from start to finish.

I listened to this again this afternoon. In my opinion, the swapping of the rear channels makes no difference whatsoever. It sounds wonderful. Even on the track "One Word," the X-pattern panning of the drums actually sounds good...a bit refreshing from the typical circular mix. In retrospect, I regret giving this disc a 9. I should have given it a 10.

ar surround said:

I listened to this again this afternoon. In my opinion, the swapping of the rear channels makes no difference whatsoever. It sounds wonderful. Even on the track "One Word," the X-pattern panning of the drums actually sounds good...a bit refreshing from the typical circular mix. In retrospect, I regret giving this disc a 9. I should have given it a 10.

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The released SACD by AF does not have an x patterned channel assignment. That is the SQ and Q8 versions.

quicksrt said:

The released SACD by AF does not have an x patterned channel assignment. That is the SQ and Q8 versions.

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What are you talking about, the AF SACD clearly has the opening snare drum roll on 'One Word' panning in an 'X' pattern as several of us on this thread have heard with our own ears.

steelydave said:

What are you talking about, the AF SACD clearly has the opening snare drum roll on 'One Word' panning in an 'X' pattern as several of us on this thread have heard with our own ears.

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Yes but I thought that the comment "At least their fronts and surrounds are 'in synch' in terms of left-right placement of instruments". "The SQ's aren't" meant that the fronts and surrounds (which I always call the rears) are united in their bits of percussion leaks or any into shared by the two sets of L & R channels. So that at worst there is both front and rear sets reversed together, and not an x. And as stated it does not screw up the integrity of the performance in quad being both in "sync" as it's called. If it is indeed oriented to an x, then I would say that statement is false and it does screw up the integrity. I am reading that the SQ (as shown in graphs) does not match front to back channels at all. It is the worse screw up so far as quad listening is concerned.
(Quote) "So that's an 'x' pattern right there....*on the SQ*"
Forgive me if I read it all wrong.

JonUrban said:

or..........who's to say that the original SQ/Q8 were swapped and the SACD has the actual original channel positions?

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Absolutely!

clg1977 said:

Yeah, I plan to do some more comparisons tonight between the SQ lp and the SACD. The front L and R are definitely swapped on the SACD compared to the SQ decoded LP on my QRX-7001. However, part of me wonders if the SQ lp was screwed up in some way when it was encoded to SQ from the original studio quad mix? The reason I ask is because there's a track on the 4.0 SACD that circles perfectly around you in a clockwise fashion (I don't remember the name off hand.) I want to compare this to the LP because I don't remember it circling perfectly. I'll post an update later tonight. If the SACD orientation was screwed up, I would think that the circle effect would not work.

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Hmm...which track on the SACD does a perfect circle? (Steelydave has established that the drumroll in One Word pans in an 'X' or 'Z' fashion, not a circle)

Let me revisit this:

rear channels: SACD has the same L-R array as the SQ surround channels and the SACD front channels; but the SQ surround L-R is reversed compared to the SQ front L-R

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Tonight I double checked that the instrumental balances on the SQ rears in One Word are Left - guitar -keys-violin -Right. I found that still to be true though again, the separation is *much less* than in the front channels (all three instruments are more clumped together in the center in the surrounds, but still have some left-right ordering). Meanwhile the fronts are very clearly violin-keys-guitar. So that weirdness remains.

But tonight I also focused on just the drums in the SQ decode of the song. The SQ decode is not very discrete, so there's lots of drums in the front channels as well as rears. What sound like Cobham's floor tom is consistently more in the left channel than right. *That's true in front and rears*

So that means the SQ situation is even weirder. The *drums* track correctly between front and rear. But the other instruments are reversed.

I would like rule out the possibility that this is an issue peculiar to the decoded SQ version I have. So if any of you have the SQ LP, please give a listen over your hardware and let me know the electric instrument layout in the surround channels. You'll probably have to mute the front channels to tell for sure.

Right about now I wish I had my Q8 handy. I've always assumed that was the 'master mix' (unless it was frigged up in the mastering phase, which I don't remember, liked it a lot). But yes, anyone out there with the SQ and the setup to play it back, do please let us know how the placement is on that one. I remember it being more cluttered than the Q8, but then my system wasn't top-of-the-line back then, and I'm not sure it would have matched the Q8 even with the best money could buy, even now.

But as Jon pointed out, you should be able to tell if a recording sounds 'good' or better even if you don't have a previous reference point; if something sucks or is wonky, that should be apparent from the outset. Then what you'd want to know if something is inherent to the original recording or mix, or not, and that's where having the old vinyl or tape is essential.

That was particularly true back in the '80s, when CD masterings ranged from surprisingly good to downright crappy--and worse, sometimes. I remember a guy on some board raising holy hell about how shitty some Love CD was. The album was FOUR SAIL (1969), and it was a dubious licensed disc from some fly-by-night UK label, not released through Elektra itself. I agreed with him that it was crap, and distorted. But I had to explain that was also the case with the white label and first pressing red label stock vinyl I bought back in early 1970; something sucky had happened at the beginning, and I don't remember hearing any of the album in what I thought was proper sonics until Bill Inglot remastered it for a later Rhino/Elektra reissue, which was very nice and what the sound should have been all along.

The problem is that imaging issues can crop up after the master mix is made: we've heard that one too many times on reissues of stereo albums, where the channels have been reversed. It's happened with quad releases, too, though BOF here does play back very well. The issue, then, is if it's the correct master mix in the proper channels.

ED