Blow By Blow Multi-Channel SACD from Analogue Productions

Left: Cause We've Ended as Lovers
Center: Thelonius
Right: Freeway Jam

On these, the center (3rd from top) and sub (4th from top) are out lof phase with the front & rear L/R.

NB again, this is a version *I* corrected. What the AP folks did may be different. In my case, I need to now just invert the C and LFE of tracks 6-9, and it should all be in-phase.

I checked my corrected version of the 2001 SACD and the LFE (I deleted the center channel) is in phase on the side 2 tracks. At times visually it looks opposite, but using the phase correlation meter in Voxengo SPAN shows it to be completely in phase. I think this has to do with the LFE being created by filtering everything above a certain frequency - as a result you get waveforms that are missing the initial transients ie the pluck of a bass guitar, or the drum stick hitting the skin (because they're higher pitched) but then the bass frequencies show up slighly after as the waves start to develop. The net effect of this is that all the LFE waveforms look like they're 'late' compared to the other channels.

The best way to check phase is with an actual phase meter like Voxengo SPAN (which is free) or failing that, solo the LFE track and one of the main channels and listen to them summed to mono. Flip the phase on the LFE track back and forth and whichever setting yields more bass is the correct one.

steelydave said:

I checked my corrected version of the 2001 SACD and the LFE (I deleted the center channel) is in phase on the side 2 tracks. At times visually it looks opposite, but using the phase correlation meter in Voxengo SPAN shows it to be completely in phase. I think this has to do with the LFE being created by filtering everything above a certain frequency - as a result you get waveforms that are missing the initial transients ie the pluck of a bass guitar, or the drum stick hitting the skin (because they're higher pitched) but then the bass frequencies show up slighly after as the waves start to develop. The net effect of this is that all the LFE waveforms look like they're 'late' compared to the other channels.

The best way to check phase is with an actual phase meter like Voxengo SPAN (which is free) or failing that, solo the LFE track and one of the main channels and listen to them summed to mono. Flip the phase on the LFE track back and forth and whichever setting yields more bass is the correct one.

Click to expand...

It still seems quite odd that the LFE (*and* the center channel) 'look' in phase on every side 1 track I checked (more than I showed) and OOP on every side two track.

There's a phase meter in Audition, I'll learn how to use that and see what it shows.

Well, I can't get the Audition phase meter to work in multichannel view, so I've installed teh Voxengo SPAN plugin into Audacity...I assume the "Correlation Meter' is the phase indicator (inverted phase issue would be a negative correlation between the two channels). Apparently I'm not using it right because even when I purposely set Front L/R out of phase (all other channels muted, and it sounds very bad) , the meter shows full green. Any tips?

Well, I can't get the Audition phase meter to work in multichannel view, so I've installed teh Voxengo SPAN plugin into Audacity...I assume the "Correlation Meter' is the phase indicator (inverted phase issue would be a negative correlation between the two channels). The default settings don't seem to be appropriate for the purpose of comparing phase in two channels, what's right preset to use?

Make sure you check your output routing in SPAN (set either to stereo or 5.1 or whatever) and on the main window pick an underlay of either a group or channel. The corellation meter is the phase meter, and it shows the difference between two groups or channels.

ETA: I don't know much about audition (I use Nuendo) but make sure you've turned on SPAN on the master output bus rather than applying it to one individual channel. It needs input from multiple channels to generate any kind of phase info.

I'll try that but in the meantime....here's some Audution phase snaps of my initial 'corrected' version, alongside deliberately inverted channels. These snaps are of a single moment but are indicative of what the phase pciture looks like while playing the track. When the ball falls below the middle horizontal line and turn red, in means the two channels out of phase (inverted) to some degree.

Top: this is a 'control' to show what a serious phase inversion looks like
left: track 1, Front Left+ front Right, initial 'corrected' version
right: same, front right channel deliberately inverted

Middle: this is another control, to show what it looks like when a front channel and LFE are out of phase
left: track 1, Front Left + LFE, initial corrected version
right, same, with LFE deliberately inverted

Botton: this is the test of the 'side two' status.
left: track 8, Front Left _ LFE, initial corrected version
right: same, with LFE deliberately inverted

This seems to indicate what I said before, that the LFE in the 'side two tracks' is indeed OOP in my 'initial corrected' version, and needs a second 'correction' to put it in phase. Though we also see that the issue is minor.

steelydave said:

Make sure you check your output routing in SPAN (set either to stereo or 5.1 or whatever) and on the main window pick an underlay of either a group or channel. The corellation meter is the phase meter, and it shows the difference between two groups or channels.

ETA: I don't know much about audition (I use Nuendo) but make sure you've turned on SPAN on the master output bus rather than applying it to one individual channel. It needs input from multiple channels to generate any kind of phase info.

Click to expand...

I was trying to use SPAN in Audacity, not Audition. I still don't really get what you mean, --I set routing to 5.1 (groups) , set underlay to front, tried to play that against LFE --- doesn't seem to work, and inverting the LFE make no difference (full green), so for now until I can find detailed instructions I'm sticking with Audition's phase analyser.

If SPAN doesn't work quite right try a DIV.

my copy came in today too and there's a big difference in between the original and this copy a lot more of those seams and just seems different better

Sent from my VS425PP using Tapatalk

leevitalone1 said:

my copy came in today too and there's a big difference in between the original and this copy a lot more of those seams and just seems different better

Sent from my VS425PP using Tapatalk

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Wow! They did a Effing bang up job on BxB!! I just finished my listen in DSD -- I'm getting Wired now for sure. hey! Analogue Prod. My new bud!

I have succumbed to the pressure and just dropped $70.00 for Blow By Blow and the new Nils Lofgren. I am Jeff Beck expert and I most certainly will put the Japan release and Kansas release to the test.

marpow said:

I have succumbed to the pressure and just dropped $70.00 for Blow By Blow and the new Nils Lofgren. I am Jeff Beck expert and I most certainly will put the Japan release and Kansas release to the test.

Click to expand...

You're getting me to blow more money, you scallywag!

leevitalone1 said:

Wow! They did a Effing bang up job on BxB!! I just finished my listen in DSD -- I'm getting Wired now for sure. hey! Analogue Prod. My new bud!

Click to expand...

Wow indeed! Thanks for the feedback :upthumb
Ok, I'm in for yet another copy of BXB

I've listened to the AP version only once. I didn't do an A/B, but I did listen to my old Sony version about a week ago. Nothing really jumped out to me on that first listen. Maybe some slightly stronger bass, but I also noticed a part in one song (I don't remember which one) where a guitar riff that I've heard a thousand times sounded really faint, as if it had been mixed down, or whatever the term is. I'll give it a few more listens before I make my judgment on how much of an improvement it is.

paligap said:

I've listened to the AP version only once. I didn't do an A/B, but I did listen to my old Sony version about a week ago. Nothing really jumped out to me on that first listen. Maybe some slightly stronger bass, but I also noticed a part in one song (I don't remember which one) where a guitar riff that I've heard a thousand times sounded really faint, as if it had been mixed down, or whatever the term is. I'll give it a few more listens before I make my judgment on how much of an improvement it is.

Click to expand...

Thanks, I received my AP copy yesterday, along with the Nils Lofgren Acoustic Live. Anyway as a hobbyist and an audiophile I look at the whole picture as to what I am paying for. The AP cover of BBB is a copy of a copy and is quite muddy looking and the wrong, too dark, brown tones. I am sure I am going to love the audio, just expressing some info, that's all. My plan is to A/B in a single setting, with the 7 X 7 Sony, one time through, starting with the AP first. My focus will be what others have called the "out of phase rears".

Again: if you run all your speakers full range ('large'), you may not hear as much of a bass difference. Any front vs rear cancellation will take place acoustically (in the air).

If you run speakers 'small', thus combining out of phase bass signals before sending them to the sub, then there will substantial electronic cancellation and notably lower bass volume from the sub, for the old Sony.

If you run some weird-ass combination (front large, rear small, center off, whatever) as some here seem to, you're on your own.

NB it is VERY hard, I would say near impossible, to conduct a proper comparison by changing discs. You have to be able to switch faster than that, thanks to aural memory being so brief.

ssully said:

Again: if you run all your speakers full range ('large'), you may not hear as much of a bass difference. Any front vs rear cancellation will take place acoustically (in the air).

If you run speakers 'small', thus combining out of phase bass signals before sending them to the sub, then there will substantial electronic cancellation and notably lower bass volume from the sub, for the old Sony.

If you run some weird-ass combination (front large, rear small, center off, whatever) as some here seem to, you're on your own.

NB it is VERY hard, I would say near impossible, to conduct a proper comparison by changing discs. You have to be able to switch faster than that, thanks to aural memory being so brief.

Click to expand...

The polarity of the LFE channel is no different on the new APO SACD. It is still out of phase with the fronts in my opinion. They did however correct the phase of the rear channels which sounds like a major improvement to me.

Cheezmo said:

The polarity of the LFE channel is no different on the new APO SACD. It is still out of phase with the fronts in my opinion. They did however correct the phase of the rear channels which sounds like a major improvement to me.

Click to expand...

As (i think) I wrote previously, on the Sony at least, the dedicated LFE content (like the Center channel content) is so low level compared to front and rears that I'm not sure it's out of phaseness would matter much in any configuration (bass managed or not).


Anyway, since the Analog Productions version is also 5.1 (apparently), does that meant they simply re-mastered Sony's 4.0-repurposed-to-5.1 version (and corrected the F/R phase issue)? Or did they do their own transfer from the original quad tapes, then their own repurposing to 5.1?

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm surprised the AP isn't just plain 4.0