Beck, Bogert & Appice in SACD Surround Sound from Sony Japan

quicksrt said:

Sony Japan are not afraid of quad blocked titles and previous DSD releases effecting their sales apparently.

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Indeed.. It seems to mostly be AF that are concerned about that (fair enough if that's how they feel).. On the other hand AP clearly aren't bothered about all that (e.g. AP's Doors SACDs with the old DVD-A 5.1 mixes, Snorah Jones with the old 5.1 mix, Herbie HeadHunters & JB Blow By Blow Quads...) and I'm sure other labels aren't either.
AP could easily be overlooked in all this but they may just surprise us with their future SACD releases of other titles with existing Quad/5.1 mixes, they're certainly not anti-surround are they..

quicksrt said:

Sony Japan are not afraid of quad blocked titles and previous DSD releases effecting their sales apparently.

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Then can we perhaps ask them to go ahead and release the Quad Santana titles that MFSL has been releasing in Stereo. Oh and please give us a Quad SACD of Nashville Skyline. Pretty please!

Simon A said:

Then can we perhaps ask them to go ahead and release the Quad Santana titles that MFSL has been releasing in Stereo. Oh and please give us a Quad SACD of Nashville Skyline. Pretty please!

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.....and while they're at it, Turnstiles & Piano Man please!

fredblue said:

Well I guess as usual the MultiCh is seen as more of a bonus rather than the main event (gasp, maybe the old Quad was even an afterthought back when they did the 7inch replica SACD of Blow By Blow!?)... so perhaps their marketing strategy is aimed more at the humongous by comparison Stereo market or Collectors scene, I dunno?

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i think you're right.
given that price tag, it's obvious the product isn't directed at masses but rather very narrow hardcore collectors niche.
i see it as a sign production cost has become low enough, that even for major players makes sense to run with such
limited print and make sufficient return from sales but it doesn't meant resurgence of interests at majors headquarters
to surround format. they just used available resource to cash on, nothing else.

fredblue said:

How bizarre. Audio Fidelity could license its transfers to Sony and recoup some of AF's costs incurred by the Surround programme seeing as sales weren't up to snuff..

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Since Sony owns the masters and makes the SACDs Audio Fidelity sells from the DSD tapes, they have no need to pay or get a license from Audio Fidelity.

fredblue said:

Indeed.. It seems to mostly be AF that are concerned about that (fair enough if that's how they feel).. On the other hand AP clearly aren't bothered about all that (e.g. AP's Doors SACDs with the old DVD-A 5.1 mixes, Snorah Jones with the old 5.1 mix, Herbie HeadHunters & JB Blow By Blow Quads...) and I'm sure other labels aren't either.
AP could easily be overlooked in all this but they may just surprise us with their future SACD releases of other titles with existing Quad/5.1 mixes, they're certainly not anti-surround are they..

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Remember that AP has said that including the Surround mixes on an SACD reissue is to "add some gravy" to the release.
The main event is the Stereo SACD and Stereo CD tracks.

The same is true in the downloads market. In that market, most Multichannel sales are when the buyer buys the Stereo and Multichannel tracks of an album together as part of a package deal (ST+MCH, Combi, etc.)
Purchases of Multichannel tracks alone are pretty rare.

bmoura said:

Since Sony owns the masters and makes the SACDs Audio Fidelity sells from the DSD tapes, they have no need to pay Audio Fidelity.

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So let me get this straight.. AF pay Sony to license the Quads, then AF pay to have the Quads transferred and remastered -- and Sony then get to use AF's transfers for free?

Man, that's rough.. especially for a littler label like AF that can't make money out of Surround as it is.. the practice in and of itself seems somewhat bordering on the scandalous to little old me.. I know I'd be pissed off if I were AF and had paid out a load of money to remaster and transfer an old Sony Quad and then Sony use my work for FREE to make money selling their own Surround SACD product, product that is somewhat in competition with my own (i.e. AF's) product.. Wow that's quite some sleight of hand on Sony's part, if I've understood correctly, clearly I'm in the wrong game!! :ugham:

bmoura said:

Remember that AP has said that including the Surround mixes on an SACD reissue is to "add some gravy" to the release.
The main event is the Stereo SACD and Stereo CD tracks.

The same is true in the downloads market. In that market, most Multichannel sales are when the buyer buys the Stereo and Multichannel tracks of an album together as part of a package deal (ST+MCH, Combi, etc.)
Purchases of Multichannel tracks alone are pretty rare.

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Well I like gravy.. ..so AP, bring on lashings of Surround gravy and you'll have another customer lapping it all up.. Yum!

fredblue said:

Well I like gravy.. ..so AP, bring on lashings of Surround gravy and you'll have another customer lapping it all up.. Yum!

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Careful what you wish for Bucky.

fredblue said:

So let me get this straight.. AF pay Sony to license the Quads, then AF pay to have the Quads transferred and remastered -- and Sony then get to use AF's transfers for free?

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Correct.

And Audio Fidelity also pays Sony Music (or the originating record company like Universal or Warner Music) for the manufactured Multichannel SACDs.
If they do a second run of SACDs of an album, AF buys more manufactured SACDs from the label that owns the album masters.

bmoura said:

Correct.

And Audio Fidelity also pays Sony Music (or the originating record company like Universal or Warner Music) for the manufactured Multichannel SACDs.
If they do a second run of SACDs of an album, AF buys more manufactured SACDs from the label that owns the album masters.

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I have to admit, I didn't fully understand how this process worked - or at least the pieces hadn't fallen together yet - until I read these last few posts. So, essentially it's set up so that the owner (Sony, in this case) can't lose on these licensing deals with an entity like Audio Fidelity. They win regardless of the sales outcome - and if it does really well, they just keep on winning. So, I guess this means that the AF edition of this disc is shut down, and now they're going to go on making money from it through their Japan operation?

leahypc said:

I have to admit, I didn't fully understand how this process worked - or at least the pieces hadn't fallen together yet - until I read these last few posts. So, essentially it's set up so that the owner (Sony, in this case) can't lose on these licensing deals with an entity like Audio Fidelity. They win regardless of the sales outcome - and if it does really well, they just keep on winning. So, I guess this means that the AF edition of this disc is shut down, and now they're going to go on making money from it through their Japan operation?

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The license to Audio Fidelity runs for a set period of time (usually multiple years). So it doesn't end simply by Sony Japan issuing a Multichannel SACD of the album.

On the payments by AF, each album licensed for reissue includes a guaranteed amount that Audio Fidelity pays to the album owner (Sony) and the artist along with payments for the discs or LPs made. They make that amount of money over a multi-year period regardless of whether the SACD sells well or not. So it's in the reissue label's interest to make sure they select albums to reissue that will make back the guaranteed payment amount plus marketing costs, warehousing, payment for the SACD discs made, etc.

The record labels and artists also make money licensing songs for use on movies, TV shows and commercials. For example, I'm told that licensing one song for a movie results in a payment to the record label and artist that is several times larger than licensing an entire album for reissue on SACD, CD, LP, etc.

Brian, i'm somewhat lost. according to you, the AF beside other legal fees also pays to get source (be it tape or digital format copy),
uses this source, to make their remastered/corrected version of title and then obligated to return back to copyright owner not only
original source but their remastered version as well without any sort of compensation for work, done by them and they can use this
version for own purpose without any restrictions?

bmoura said:

The license to Audio Fidelity runs for a set period of time (usually multiple years). So it doesn't end simply by Sony Japan issuing a Multichannel SACD of the album.

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All I meant was that AF wouldn't be doing another pressing run since the Japan title is coming out. True?

leahypc said:

All I meant was that AF wouldn't be doing another pressing run since the Japan title is coming out. True?

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That's up to Audio Fidelity.

After each run of Multichannel SACDs (or Stereo SACDs) sells out, they make a decision about buying another set of SACDs.
The question is will the number sold cover the cost of the new pressing or not.

I'd guess that a competing edition of this album on Multichannel SACD would make another pressing by Audio Fidelity less likely.
But it's their call.

0tto said:

Brian, i'm somewhat lost. according to you, the AF beside other legal fees also pays to get source (be it tape or digital format copy),
uses this source, to make their remastered/corrected version of title and then obligated to return back to copyright owner not only
original source but their remastered version as well without any sort of compensation for work, done by them and they can use this
version for own purpose without any restrictions?

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That's correct.

bmoura said:

That's up to Audio Fidelity.

After each run of Multichannel SACDs (or Stereo SACDs) sells out, they make a decision about buying another set of SACDs.
The question is will the number sold cover the cost of the new pressing or not.

I'd guess that a competing edition of this album on Multichannel SACD would make another pressing by Audio Fidelity less likely.
But it's their call.

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Okay - I wasn't sure if Sony would have control over that as well. Maybe AF could continue it as the lower cost option...

Since Brian has been kind enough to explain some of the details involved in these releases and the associated costs...I hope more people appreciate what Marshall has done for our hobby by taking a chance on these releases...it certainly was against most of the prevailing trends in the music industry..

Clint Eastwood said:

Since Brian has been kind enough to explain some of the details involved in these releases and the associated costs...I hope more people appreciate what Marshall has done for our hobby by taking a chance on these releases...it certainly was against most of the prevailing trends in the music industry..

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Every night before I retire I thank my lucky stars for AF's SACD QUAD program and will look forward to more releases from AF in the coming years even though they'll be more curtailed. And when you behold what SONY Japan is charging for the BECK QUADs (MORE than double what we pay for AF QUADS in the States), one can further appreciate AF's brief but consistent dedication to what we all know to be a niche market.

I suppose we all knew that this 'party' couldn't go on forever and the fact that AF released roughly 30 SACDs (with a FEW more coming), BRAVO again to Marhsall Blonstein and Company (including of course THE multichannel maven) for their concerted efforts in bringing these titles to fruition.

With the upcoming Laura Nyro and L&M Full Sail Quads, it's bittersweet for me, as well, as these were two VERY sought after titles I have been patiently awaiting for over 45 years.

cupboy said:

Well, the AF is out of print. Amazon sellers who are trying to get $45-$65 for the AF may be disappointed.

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When you say out of print, do you mean sold out at most retailers, and asking price was already rising on used market? It is available at the AF site, and does not say limited numbers available like it says with the Bread and Doors 4.0s. Because in a way, many AF titles are out of print, or going there sooner rather than later. They do a run, and hope to do a second run. And I think a third run only on the best sellers. The size of a run is determined by how hot the title is expected to be.

I am under the impression that they do not keep running off runs, but actually hope to sell out on a title within 2-3 years, and be on to the next title. Everything they do is a limited edition.