CD 4 Distortion

Hi. fredblue

So you are dipping your toe into the CD-4 waters mmmmmmmmm...you do have the Quad bug...:fly::fly::fly::fly:..........

I totally agree with " The Quadfather " I have just purchased a ATN440MLb cartridge this is a up grade to the ATN440MLa which is out of production so the (ATN440MLb) is the one to go for, with your skill in hunting for a good price ...

And remember the team from Aus. is going to work on a NEW CD-4 demod you can wait and see or buy a working JVC 4DD-5 unit, so go for it but there will be a little amount of fiddling to get it right & ...also remember there were good groups only on CD-4 LP only..only..only.. sorry stuck record..

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/639dc678493df33c/index.html
http://www.turntableneedles.com/At440MLb-Audio-Technica-Cartridge_p_4279.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGskAjDENdc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_4Hdmd8mtw

fredblue said:

As I'm poised to dip a toe into the CD-4 waters, my interest is piqued by your last comments that CD-4 records were made with super vinyl to combat record wear.

Reading through past QQ posts on the subject, I've seen some conflicting reports about how fussy CD-4 records can be and how they can (allegedly) be trashed if played using a non-compliant (non-Shibata?) stylus or whatever..?

Please forgive the potentially incorrect terminology throughout my post, hitherto I've only been an ever-so-humble SQ and QS vinyl spinner (SQ and QS may have some shortcomings but they seemed so much easier to handle, especially to a Quad vinyl rookie like yours truly, who hadn't so much as played a slice of vinyl in a decade or more up to the point I decided to go Quad vinyl..!) and as I am starting to acquire used CD-4 records right now, I want to make sure I am not picking up stacks of used CD-4 records that are to all intents and purposes useless.

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

By the way, if you see a demodulator that looks like a 4DD5 but is a different brand, chances are it is a 4DD5. Several manufacturers purchased either 4DD5 circuit boards or the whole unit, and put their own name on it. One of them is Sylvania. Theirs looks just like and is a 4DD5. same paint and everything. There are others that did the same. Marantz even got in on the act by purchasing 4DD5 boards and putting them in their CD300A units. Marantz had such beautiful cabinets on their gear. So if you find one of these, you get Marantz's good looks with JVC quality. (To their credit, Marantz did later develop their own demodulators, at least as far as I know)
The Quadfather

bigbillquad said:

Hi. fredblue

So you are dipping your toe into the CD-4 waters mmmmmmmmm...you do have the Quad bug...:fly::fly::fly::fly:..........

I totally agree with " The Quadfather " I have just purchased a ATN440MLb cartridge this is a up grade to the ATN440MLa which is out of production so the (ATN440MLb) is the one to go for, with your skill in hunting for a good price ...

And remember the team from Aus. is going to work on a NEW CD-4 demod you can wait and see or buy a working JVC 4DD-5 unit, so go for it but there will be a little amount of fiddling to get it right & ...also remember there were good groups only on CD-4 LP only..only..only.. sorry stuck record..

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cartridges/639dc678493df33c/index.html
http://www.turntableneedles.com/At440MLb-Audio-Technica-Cartridge_p_4279.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGskAjDENdc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_4Hdmd8mtw

Click to expand...

As time has allowed I have tried several combinations to figure this out.

I have two JVC 4DD-5's and one Panasonic SE-405H. I have three AT cartridges. AT-15S, AT-15Sa and AT-14Sa.

No change whatsoever. It seems to have come down to bad or worn CD-4 records.

At least that is my conclusion...

Thanks for the many ideas and help.

There's a little trick I used to employ to avoid some of the breakup/distortion.

Now I used a Shure M24H which I found far superior to my JVC 4MD20X.and I would "adjust the pitch" on my Dual, thereby slowing down the lp revolutions.
Anyway try it and see if it makes any difference.



It worked on most of my CD-4 discs with that problem, not always, but most of the time.

fizzywiggs41 said:

There's a little trick I used to employ to avoid some of the breakup/distortion.

Now I used a Shure M24H which I found far superior to my JVC 4MD20X.and I would "adjust the pitch" on my Dual, thereby slowing down the lp revolutions.
Anyway try it and see if it makes any difference.



It worked on most of my CD-4 discs with that problem, not always, but most of the time.

Click to expand...

Revolutionary (geddit? ) idea FW! :upthumb

So, did you slow down/speed up just one track or the whole side of the LP in these instances?

Edit: Also did it only require a tiny pitch shift, one that might be kinda imperceptible?

Another edit: Slowing down or speeding up the disc didn't interfere with the 30khz radar tone and other aspects of the CD4 functionally, etc., I take it?

Fwiw, not encountered much distortion, mercifully, so far.. though its v.early days for me with CD-4, so it could well all go downhill rapidly ( ).. I was warned the condition of the vinyl has to be tip-top and discs kept scrupulously clean.. truer word I never heard..!

I'll have to give that a try. plus I will remount my Grado MF-1. I have the perfect CD-4 record to test your idea on. The best of Aretha Franklin...Side one. Band 5. "Spanish Harlem". It's the only song on that record that has the breakup distortion.

Thanks fizzywiggs41

fredblue said:

Revolutionary (geddit? ) idea FW! :upthumb

So, did you slow down/speed up just one track or the whole side of the LP in these instances?

Edit: Also did it only require a tiny pitch shift, one that might be kinda imperceptible?

Another edit: Slowing down or speeding up the disc didn't interfere with the 30khz radar tone and other aspects of the CD4 functionally, etc., I take it?

Click to expand...

By slowing it down (adjusting the pitch) minutely, I found it tracked the groove better.
Kinda makes sense when you think about it.

And not the whole disc, although the difference would be slight. Just the troublesome track which was always the last or second last track in my case.
I found it worked for: Doobie Bros. WWOVANH and Zappa:Overnite & Apostrophe.


My copies of Machine Head and Captain and Me were very early WB pressings and even with this method the difference was minimal.
Some early WEA "JVC Hollywood Cutting Centre " discs are just not cut well.

fizzywiggs41 said:

By slowing it down (adjusting the pitch) minutely, I found it tracked the groove better.
Kinda makes sense when you think about it.

And not the whole disc, although the difference would be slight. Just the troublesome track which was always the last or second last track in my case.
I found it worked for: Doobie Bros. WWOVANH and Zappa:Overnite & Apostrophe.


My copies of Machine Head and Captain and Me were very early WB pressings and even with this method the difference was minimal.
Some early WEA "JVC Hollywood Cutting Centre " discs are just not cut well.

Click to expand...

Thanks Fizzy Wizzy Bizzy Bizzy Work Work Bang Bang! You're a gem of a Quaddie!
(I will try out this slo-mo CD-4 trick of yours soon, probly at le weekend or next week)
Could you express the pitch deviation with a percentage point or a figure of some such for reference purposes at all, please..?
I ask chiefly as my Technics has a pitch adjustment slider which ranges from +8 to -8 (in increments of 2.. so -8, -6, -4, -2, 0, +2, +4, +6, +8)

fwiw I've held off getting Machine Head & Captain & Me CD-4's...
I just don't know if I can bring myself to buying yet another copy of those two albums, as wonderful as they are.. maybe I should hold off altogether if they're not great CD-4 pressings.. are there any other early USA CD-4's to avoid in your experience?
I've heard some horror stories about Cat Stevens Hits on CD-4, so that's off the shopping list for the time being

My pitch goes from zero to three in both plus or minus, try one at a time .

But only if you have a problematic track.I would be leary to adjust it to the last minimal speed and of course not at all in +. You don't want it to speed up at all......as this method (in slow) gives the needle a chance to fully read the signal. (Or so it would seem)

Other bad cd-4 discs ?

Those 2 were early and B O A-Raunch and Roll come to mind, again early disc.I had the Cat Steven's CD-4 and I did not find it that bad.It had a little noise but was not a major problem.

Remember....the first few pressings off the metal master should be very good to excellent, but the last few may be with some distortion, or next to none.


WEA/JVC North America did upgrade their cutting devices and Modulation equipment in late 74 or early 75 and repressed some of their earlier discs afterall.

fizzywiggs41 said:

My pitch goes from zero to three in both plus or minus, try one at a time .

But only if you have a problematic track.I would be leary to adjust it to the last minimal speed and of course not at all in +. You don't want it to speed up at all......as this method (in slow) gives the needle a chance to fully read the signal. (Or so it would seem)

Other bad cd-4 discs ?

Those 2 were early and B O A-Raunch and Roll come to mind, again early disc.I had the Cat Steven's CD-4 and I did not find it that bad.It had a little noise but was not a major problem.

Remember....the first few pressings off the metal master should be very good to excellent, but the last few may be with some distortion, or next to none.


WEA/JVC North America did upgrade their cutting devices and Modulation equipment in late 74 or early 75 and repressed some of their earlier discs afterall.

Click to expand...

Fab info as always FW, many thanks

I do have one itsy bitsy problemette with too much pitch fiddling (well two things, really) 1.) the Technics is running bang on dammit, the strobe is lovely and steady ("steady as she moves" as the Brecker Brothers would say! :banana: ) so I'm kind loathe to screw around with that, more out of fear than logic.. and 2.) for some reason I'm v. sensitive to pitch, the worst is records pressed off-centre (many Quad LPs do this - and it gets on my thrupenny bits like you would not believe..!) but even if something isn't running at the correct pitch especially if its a passage of music I know but not necessarily so, I can tell and it kinda ruins the whole experience.. so I shall proceed with caution as you advise.. and only slow it down, not speed it up!

(daft question maybe but.. I guess I could then theoretically correct the pitch again, say in Audacity, once the 4-channels have been demodulated if it really does mar enjoyment? )

fredblue said:

Fab info as always FW, many thanks
I do have one itsy bitsy

(daft question maybe but.. I guess I could then theoretically correct the pitch again, say in Audacity, once the 4-channels have been demodulated if it really does mar enjoyment? )

Click to expand...

Why yes indeed.

That's using your noggin.A touch of brilliance imho.:violin:sun





Did you say....thrupence ? I might say ;Maybe even your "tripod".

Well fizzywiggs41...I tried your idea of adjusting the pitch control (Dual 721 has a 10% [+/- 5%]). No joy...Installed the Grado MF-1 and had a 90% improvement, but some loss of separation. I do have a Grado Gold 1 Prestige I could try, but...

Yup...Bands 5 & 6 are the usual bad or distorted bands.

I'm just going to try to find a good CD 4 record to replace this one.

Keep trying its worth it!
My jvc Victor x1 was the only cartridge that played all my albums for 250-300 hours then problems would start until I took the quadfathers recommendation and tried the AT440mlb, it has a good cantilever and most importantly a micro linear (micro ridge) stylus which was if my research is correct was designed for playing RCA's failed video system i.e. response to up to 100k (Dynavector 17d3)

Things to check (sorry i'm not trying to teach you to suck eggs)

1 stylus rake angle ( if stylus is slightly mis-set in cantilever VTA will not set the correct rake)
2 alignment (especially inner point)
3 azimuth (crosstalk and how the especially how the stylus sits in the groove
4 Capacitance

Keep all phono connections between the headship and the demodulator as few as possible remember each phono plug and socket can have 7-10pf each!
low capacitance cable as short as possible (do not rely on the makers specs, buy a capacitance meter they are cheap and accurate from ebay).
with a bit of work 60pf or less total is achievable before the demodulator.

5 Clean and use switch/pot cleaner lubricant on all phono connections and if you are using a 4dd5 that horrible direct out switch (with lid off squirt down the switches gap and move a few times to clean the contacts)

6 Very important is the stylus clean? not stereo playback clean but 60K Hertz clean I often have to use AT's cleaning fluid dry brushing is not enough. Remember the records will soon be 50 years old, I recently bought a quadradisk unused and sealed in its sleeve and the stylus still found dry crud when I first played it.

7 Finally tracking weight, top end of manufactures range, Anti-skate if, like the AT440mlb you can pass the +18 torture track without any anti skate just set the tonearms normal setting or a bit less to reduce outside groove wear. if not balance the distortion with anti skate or in combination with tracking weight.

8 Play a couple of stereo albums and if all sounds great set up the demodulator preferably with the CD4 test record quicker and very accurate) or quadfathers method if you haven't got one

Finally unless your record has been played loads of times on a old 33/78 swivel tip cartridge all should be great including the inner tracks. I have 50 odd CD4 records most played many 100's and some many many more times, the ones given to me played on anything from conical to cheap and well worn ellipticals.
With the right set up High modulation Splashing, sandpaper quad, carrier dropout, inner groove distortion etc is not the CD4 experience, If properly mastered it should be as good as a stereo recording with a perhaps a little more surface noise.

That Black Oak Arkansas "Raunch and Roll" CD-4 does have some problems. While it's listenable you will get occasional splatter, especially when Jim Dandy plays the washboard. But the splatter sounds like the washboard, so, it's not that bad. But like the Cat Stevens record, it's a tough play.

fizzywiggs41 said:

My pitch goes from zero to three in both plus or minus, try one at a time .

But only if you have a problematic track.I would be leary to adjust it to the last minimal speed and of course not at all in +. You don't want it to speed up at all......as this method (in slow) gives the needle a chance to fully read the signal. (Or so it would seem)

Other bad cd-4 discs ?

Those 2 were early and B O A-Raunch and Roll come to mind, again early disc.I had the Cat Steven's CD-4 and I did not find it that bad.It had a little noise but was not a major problem.

Remember....the first few pressings off the metal master should be very good to excellent, but the last few may be with some distortion, or next to none.


WEA/JVC North America did upgrade their cutting devices and Modulation equipment in late 74 or early 75 and repressed some of their earlier discs afterall.

Click to expand...

I've posted this on another thread today, but it seems to fit better here.
I had and still have the best CD-4 results with non Shibata good quality MC cartridges like Ortofon MC-30 Super and similar with Van-den-Hul or other "modern" styli plugged into a MCA 76 before it goes into the CD-4 demodulator. I recently compared this cartridge to a AT-20 SLA, which is for many the best CD-4 cartridge, on the same arm and turntable and the result was so much in favor of the MC-30 that I probably will start to offer all my original CD-4 cartridges soon. None of the difficult CD-4 records like Barry Manilow or the last track on BW Stevensons Calabasas are a problem with such a MC cartridge.
From my experience the distortions at the end of some CD-4 are inherent to the pressing. Tried with multiple copies of Calabasas, one clearly unplayed and the distortions were there with Shibata CD4 cartridges and no adjustments I tried would clearly improve this. Now, since more than 2 years I'm using the Ortofon MC-30 Super and CD-4 was never better!:sun

The Quadfather said:

That Black Oak Arkansas "Raunch and Roll" CD-4 does have some problems. While it's listenable you will get occasional splatter, especially when Jim Dandy plays the washboard. But the splatter sounds like the washboard, so, it's not that bad. But like the Cat Stevens record, it's a tough play.

Click to expand...

Yes indeed. That old washboard. Jim Dandy must of had some distorted grooves with his ..