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Thread: Santana "Lotus" - Stereo SACD from Audio Fidelity (Dec 2016)

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    Default Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoura View Post
    And then there is the Wake Up Everybody album by Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes. SQ only release in the 1970's (no Q8) but the 4 Channel Tape exists and was used for The Collection on Audio Fidelity Multichannel SACD....
    What Adam says...

    Surround yourself with the best.

    Here's to 2017!

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by rtbluray View Post
    What Adam says...
    Such a lovely album Ryan.. a Number 1 on some charts 40 years ago, no less.. and a superb Quad mix (almost all the Philadelphia International Quads are superb, imho)

    Edit: Sorry didn't mean to tread on your toes, RT
    Still great minds think alike eh..
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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Yes, 4-earredwonder. have you heard back from Mr. Blonstein about the supposedly, Santana - Lotus?

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by TexDave222 View Post
    Yes, 4-earredwonder. have you heard back from Mr. Blonstein about the supposedly, Santana - Lotus?
    Just checked....NOT yet.

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    I have a suspicious feeling that this live concert was in fact recorded and encoded to SQ at the source, and an actual 4 channel discrete master may not exist. It will be very interesting to see if AF can locate a quad master.

    I would bet this release will be SQ encoded stereo only, but hey, you never know. If it is, don't jump down Marshall's throat on this one. He is clearly trying to locate this master if it does indeed exist.
    :-jon

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    I'm at
    Quote Originally Posted by JonUrban View Post
    I have a suspicious feeling that this live concert was in fact recorded and encoded to SQ at the source, and an actual 4 channel discrete master may not exist. It will be very interesting to see if AF can locate a quad master.

    I would bet this release will be SQ encoded stereo only, but hey, you never know. If it is, don't jump down Marshall's throat on this one. He is clearly trying to locate this master if it does indeed exist.
    Really??? I could see him not clearly looking for the quad master, and had decided a whike back that a three LP set is excessive costs to remaster in 4-chan. If RTF and WR were not in quad for SACD, then a triple as asking for a lot.

    How do you see it that he is clearly seeking quad?

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksrt View Post
    .....How do you see it that he is clearly seeking quad?
    He asked me if I had any idea where he might find it!
    :-jon

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by JonUrban View Post
    He asked me if I had any idea where he might find it!
    I wonder if the people at Sony Japan who have been doing those Jeff Beck Quad SACDs in 7" packaging might know the whereabouts of the Lotus Quad masters?

    (On a tangent, sorry Jon not meant as a derail but while I've got your ear here and Marshall has your ear too.. might there be any faint glimmer of hope convincing Marshall to do RTF & WR in Surround at all.. please?)
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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by fredblue View Post
    I wonder if the people at Sony Japan who have been doing those Jeff Beck Quad SACDs in 7" packaging might know the whereabouts of the Lotus Quad masters?

    (On a tangent, sorry Jon not meant as a derail but while I've got your ear here and Marshall has your ear too.. might there be any faint glimmer of hope convincing Marshall to do RTF & WR in Surround at all.. please?)
    I don't think that a quad discrete master ever existed, but I could be wrong. As for BS&T GH, RTF, and WR, believe me, I feel your pain, but am helpless to do a thing. If The Mavin can't do it, I certainly can't.
    :-jon

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksrt View Post
    I'm at

    Really??? I could see him not clearly looking for the quad master, and had decided a whike back that a three LP set is excessive costs to remaster in 4-chan. If RTF and WR were not in quad for SACD, then a triple as asking for a lot.

    How do you see it that he is clearly seeking quad?
    I do think Jon and steelydave might well be on the money and there never was a 4-ch discrete master for Lotus but.. no harm trying to find it.. and Marshall is clearly trying to utilise a 4-ch master on this one from what Jon is saying! Fingers crossed! Lotus.. free at last from its matrix encoded shackles...! Maybe!

    (Trying.. not.. to.. get.. my.. hopes.. up.. )
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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by JonUrban View Post
    I don't think that a quad discrete master ever existed, but I could be wrong. As for BS&T GH, RTF, and WR, believe me, I feel your pain, but am helpless to do a thing. If The Mavin can't do it, I certainly can't.
    Thanks Jon

    Knowing how big on surround Brian Moura is, I'll bet he tried everything he could to persuade Marshall to do BS&T GH/RTF/WR in Surround.. *sigh* Oh well, just another "missed opportunity" I guess..!

    Hopes currently on lukewarm for Lotus.. even if no 4-channel master ever existed for it, at least it'll all be in Hi-Res for the first time, in which case I'll buy it and decode the livin' daylights out of it with the Surround Master, no vinyl declicking and all that codswallop! Yippee!
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    Hi-Res Moderator rtbluray's Avatar
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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    None of this is really sounding that promising, but then again, I learned not to get my hopes up after what happened with both "Tale Spinnin" and "Musicmagic".

    Then again if a 4-channel master tape cannot be found, then it's better to have a stereo-only release from that outcome than one in which 4-channel master tapes are available but not utilized.
    But if this will be a multichannel SACD with a discrete Quad mix remastered from the original tapes, then this title had better sell by the truckloads.
    So many people on this forum have been clamoring for more Santana releases in surround sound, so I had better see every single one of those people in line to get this on day one, or we can kiss our lovely AF Multichannel SACDs adios!

    Surround yourself with the best.

    Here's to 2017!

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by rtbluray View Post
    None of this is really sounding that promising, but then again, I learned not to get my hopes up after what happened with both "Tale Spinnin" and "Musicmagic".

    Then again if a 4-channel master tape cannot be found, then it's better to have a stereo-only release from that outcome than one in which 4-channel master tapes are available but not utilized.
    But if this will be a multichannel SACD with a discrete Quad mix remastered from the original tapes, then this title had better sell by the truckloads.
    So many people on this forum have been clamoring for more Santana releases in surround sound, so I had better see every single one of those people in line to get this on day one, or we can kiss our lovely AF Multichannel SACDs adios!
    In other words...
    (unlike sesquipedelian moi to be so economical and use only 7 words when an essay will do )

    "Put your money where your mouth is!"

    I like the cut of your jib!
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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by JonUrban View Post
    I have a suspicious feeling that this live concert was in fact recorded and encoded to SQ at the source, and an actual 4 channel discrete master may not exist. It will be very interesting to see if AF can locate a quad master.
    Could be. Based on past experience, if the 4 Channel Tape exists, Sony Music U.S. or Sony Music Japan probably has it and will locate it.

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    It would seem incomprehensible to me that LOTUS was encoded into SQ during the actual concert........analagous to a CD~4 encode being done 'on the fly.' A concert of this magnitude surely originated on multitrack analog tape and from these tapes the discs were encoded into SQ.

    Bri the Mav surely knows but isn't telling.........and I still haven't received my usual prompt email (reply) from Marshall regarding the status of LOTUS (perhaps he's on vacation or isn't going to spill the beans THIS time).

    At any rate, to encode SQ during a live concert recording when I'm sure it was multitracked doesn't seem logical.....unless Columbia Records had a SUPER DUPER SQ PROFESSIONAL encoder at the actual event .....as the SQ decoders built into the receivers of the time REALLY SUCKED!

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    ....At any rate, to encode SQ during a live concert recording when I'm sure it was multitracked doesn't seem logical.....unless Columbia Records had a SUPER DUPER SQ PROFESSIONAL encoder at the actual event .....as the SQ decoders built into the receivers of the time REALLY SUCKED!
    I am just guessing by using old remembrances, but just remember that if the old SQ decoders of the time sucked, then how good could the ENCODERS of the time have been? A live event recorded and encoded in Japan where they were wild about quad at the time, a Sony artist with a Sony release that would promote the SQ format could possibly have been done that way. It would explain the absence of a stereo-only mix of this album.

    But as I stated above twice, it's all conjecture. And really, we all have to stop agonizing over stuff that could have and should have come out in any format, from the '70s, to the early '00s, to now. If you can't buy it, then it's not worth dwelling on. There was probably more shit that almost came out then actually did come out, and all of it would have probably been great!

    Getting arrogant about any of this stuff is a waste of energy.
    :-jon

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by JonUrban View Post
    I am just guessing by using old remembrances, but just remember that if the old SQ decoders of the time sucked, then how good could the ENCODERS of the time have been? A live event recorded and encoded in Japan where they were wild about quad at the time, a Sony artist with a Sony release that would promote the SQ format could possibly have been done that way. It would explain the absence of a stereo-only mix of this album.

    But as I stated above twice, it's all conjecture. And really, we all have to stop agonizing over stuff that could have and should have come out in any format, from the '70s, to the early '00s, to now. If you can't buy it, then it's not worth dwelling on. There was probably more shit that almost came out then actually did come out, and all of it would have probably been great!

    Getting arrogant about any of this stuff is a waste of energy.
    I should think, Jon, that one of the prime deterrents in encoding this LIVE is the necessary editing which accompanies ALL Live Rock concerts. You cannot edit or do overdubs ON THE FLY.

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    I think you're misunderstanding why there might not be a 4-channel master.

    It's not because this gig was mixed live, as it was being performed. Instead it would have been recorded live as usual, to 16 or 24 track tape. Then the engineer would take the tapes back to the (quad equipped) studio to mix them - but instead of mixing down to a discrete 4 track tape, he'd feed the 4 outputs of the mixing console in to the SQ encoder, and the stereo output of the SQ encoder to a 2-track stereo tape. If you read Stephen Desper's thread about the Beach Boys quad (and not quad) releases, he talks about doing this for the stuff he mixed to DY or EV-4, he didn't go multitrack->4 channel->matrix encoder->stereo, he went from the multitrack through a mixing desk that had a DY circuit set up so he was basically encoding on the fly as he was mixing, and able to hear the results. This is basically similar to what I'm suggesting what may have happened with Lotus, if there is no discrete master, just with an SQ encoder instead of DY.

    I'm not saying this is definitely the case with Lotus, but the reason they would do this for single-inventory quad releases is because that way, they could be sure of what the SQ encode/decode process was doing to the sound. This was key because if this was going out as a single-inventory release, it still had to sound 'perfect' played back in stereo - if you've listened to any SQ quad played back undecoded in stereo, you'll notice that sometimes certain elements are overly buried or overly pronounced as a result of the quad encoding process and I'm sure they wanted to avoid that as much as possible.

    It's my recollection anyway that Lotus is pretty much a band in front/audience & ambiance in the back kind of mix anyway, so if a discrete 4 channel master does exist, the main benefit isn't going to be a crazy directional enveloping quad extravaganza, it's going to be that the mix sounds less 'wet' or reverb-y/echoey. This because half of that ambiance is going to be in the rear speakers as opposed to the SQ encoded master which has the front reverbs and rear reverbs mixed down to two channels. I believe this is why the stereo CD's of ELP's 'Welcome Back My Friends' sound like you're in a reverb tank, because they took the quad mix and just folded it down to stereo, so you're really getting twice as much reverb as you'd really want.

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by steelydave View Post
    I think you're misunderstanding why there might not be a 4-channel master.

    It's not because this gig was mixed live, as it was being performed. Instead it would have been recorded live as usual, to 16 or 24 track tape. Then the engineer would take the tapes back to the (quad equipped) studio to mix them - but instead of mixing down to a discrete 4 track tape, he'd feed the 4 outputs of the mixing console in to the SQ encoder, and the stereo output of the SQ encoder to a 2-track stereo tape. If you read Stephen Desper's thread about the Beach Boys quad (and not quad) releases, he talks about doing this for the stuff he mixed to DY or EV-4, he didn't go multitrack->4 channel->matrix encoder->stereo, he went from the multitrack through a mixing desk that had a DY circuit set up so he was basically encoding on the fly as he was mixing, and able to hear the results. This is basically similar to what I'm suggesting what may have happened with Lotus, if there is no discrete master, just with an SQ encoder instead of DY.

    I'm not saying this is definitely the case with Lotus, but the reason they would do this for single-inventory quad releases is because that way, they could be sure of what the SQ encode/decode process was doing to the sound. This was key because if this was going out as a single-inventory release, it still had to sound 'perfect' played back in stereo - if you've listened to any SQ quad played back undecoded in stereo, you'll notice that sometimes certain elements are overly buried or overly pronounced as a result of the quad encoding process and I'm sure they wanted to avoid that as much as possible.

    It's my recollection anyway that Lotus is pretty much a band in front/audience & ambiance in the back kind of mix anyway, so if a discrete 4 channel master does exist, the main benefit isn't going to be a crazy directional enveloping quad extravaganza, it's going to be that the mix sounds less 'wet' or reverb-y/echoey. This because half of that ambiance is going to be in the rear speakers as opposed to the SQ encoded master which has the front reverbs and rear reverbs mixed down to two channels. I believe this is why the stereo CD's of ELP's 'Welcome Back My Friends' sound like you're in a reverb tank, because they took the quad mix and just folded it down to stereo, so you're really getting twice as much reverb as you'd really want.
    It is an excellent mix and not like you described. I do like your post however, thanks for the technical info.

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Hi. steelydave.

    In general the live concert is ambiance with the crowd in the back channels, The front stage has a wide horse shoe effect but does have instruments in the back channels as well in some of the songs this is my favorite Quad live concert.

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Fair enough, I'll defer to those descriptions of the mix as it's been years since I've listened to it.

    I'm just not a big fan of SQ and also don't trust it, so in situations like that my bias leads me to believe that it's just the SQ decoder pushing out-of-phase stuff to the rears rather than instruments that were actually mixed back there.

    If it does turn out to be a real discrete mix with instruments in the rears, I'll be happier than fredblue is when he finds a rare new zealand pressing of an obscure ray conniff quad EP. ie incredibly happy.

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    I would like to invite you to have a Surround Master SQ unit to give these SQ LP`s a good fare listen you may change your mind on matrix LP`s ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by steelydave View Post
    Fair enough, I'll defer to those descriptions of the mix as it's been years since I've listened to it.

    I'm just not a big fan of SQ and also don't trust it, so in situations like that my bias leads me to believe that it's just the SQ decoder pushing out-of-phase stuff to the rears rather than instruments that were actually mixed back there.

    If it does turn out to be a real discrete mix with instruments in the rears, I'll be happier than fredblue is when he finds a rare new zealand pressing of an obscure ray conniff quad EP. ie incredibly happy.

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by himey View Post
    It is an excellent mix and not like you described. I do like your post however, thanks for the technical info.
    So, obviously, it is discrete, himey? I've actually never heard LOTUS much less the SQ Vinyl version so I'd be curious how you would describe the mix.

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    900 Club - QQ All Star quicksrt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    I have a DTS conversion from stereo/SQ CD. I'm not sure I ever listened to it. Well, the time has come to review that set.

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    Default Re: Audio Fidelity SACD Santana "Lotus" coming in October

    Quote Originally Posted by JonUrban View Post
    I have a suspicious feeling that this live concert was in fact recorded and encoded to SQ at the source, and an actual 4 channel discrete master may not exist. It will be very interesting to see if AF can locate a quad master.

    I would bet this release will be SQ encoded stereo only, but hey, you never know. If it is, don't jump down Marshall's throat on this one. He is clearly trying to locate this master if it does indeed exist.
    Well they can always do like the Beach Boys SACDs recently have, and decode the SQ and give us that on surround layer (joke).

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