We need a Quad First/Surround First reissue label

bmoura said:

That assumes you could get the duo to agree to reissue licensing. Something that isn't the case today.

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Simple question if I may, please; is this a personal thing with Fagen & Becker not playing ball on the licensing of their music to AF..?

Or is it more the kind of BS of AF having to work around the major labels' draconian inflexibility? (*)

I feel for AF, I really do, they must have had so much nonsense to countenance behind the scenes, poor sods

(* ..like why AF aren't doing the rest of the EJ 5.1's, for example, I can't reveal the truth of the matter without betraying the trust of someone very important here, so no details sorry.. but the reality of why there'll be no EJ 5.1's from AF is absolutely ball-breakingly DUMB, I could weep.. whatever, it still doesn't change the fact that 12 years down the line we are no further forward getting to hear those unreleased Universal 5.1 mixes of things like SD's Pretzel Logic, EJ's Don't Shoot Me etc.. whichever way you look at it, the loser in the end is us here at QQ and elsewhere who are lovers of surround music. DAMMIT...!!!!!)

ubertrout said:

Of course, you have the sad tale of Silverline to consider...they made a big push in surround for years, had some great titles and some terrible ones, and failed to sell any real volume: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...ctuary-for-50-Million-Over-Dual-Disc-Material. It's clearly incredibly complicated to do licenses for pop vocal music with the complicated copyright issues involved - the labels that have been doing this successfully have all been in the classical realm (notably Pentatone), or licensing instrumental titles with essentially zero popular demand (Vocalion).

I think one way to do this might be as a kickstarter, and it could be done with added incentives (say if you pay $500 you get to come to the mastering session for the day). But I'll caution that the best way to make a small fortune with a venture such as this is to start with a large fortune.

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Not trying to be contentious for the sake of it but I see the Silverline situation slightly differently to you.

To my mind, Silverline flooded a febrile 5.1 music market with mostly rubbish, which I fear put off more newcomers to surround music than it won over.

I say this only based on my own personal experience, since I came to the conclusion, many years before I found QQ and discovered that in actual fact there were some worthwhile Silverline surround titles, that having heard a few Silverline releases back in the day, they were just not great surround sound, so I stopped buying them.. they shot themselves in the foot by releasing too much mediocre surround too rapidly imho.

as for not making any money, very good point.. but I'm not making any money by buying multiple copies of the same old Quad records and multiple old Quad decoders in an effort to hear some of this old Quad stuff (in barely acceptable quality a lot of the time) so I might as well plough that money into licensing Quads from the majors, setting up a Quad/Surround reissue label and making pristine new transfers of the Quads fresh from the master tapes readily available - to the benefit of all interested parties - instead

rtbluray said:

Then you would end up with something like "The Collection", and from what I gather, that was not a particularly successful venture for Audio Fidelity, both commercially and critically…

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With you on that, Ryan.. to me the Collection was a very nice idea but not all that well executed, with a number of duff or redundant tracks (imho) not from an aesthetic point of view but in a commercial sense and a compilation sense, you don't stick a 14-minute Miles Davis track or some bollocks by the Friends of Distinction on a compilation intended to have a broader appeal.. it should and could have been all Quad hits, or at least things that have familiarity and don't drag on forever

If you'd tasked me with compiling such a Surround compilation, I'd have put together something more interesting, not necessarily this or in this exact order but more along these lines;

1.) Aerosmith - Back In The Saddle,
2.) Edgar Winter - Free Ride,
3.) EWF - That's The Way Of The World,
4.) Jeff Beck - Goodbye Pork Pie Hat,
5.) Billy Joel - Piano Man,
6.) Argent - God Gave Rock & Roll To You,
7.) Hues Corporation - Rock The Boat,
8.) Dave Mason - Bring It On Home To Me,
9.) Harold Melvin - The Love I Lost,
10.) Poco - Rocky Mountain Breakdown,
11.) Redbone - Witch Queen Of New Orleans,
12.) O'Jays - I Love Music,
13.) Raiders - Heaven Help Us All,
14.) Isley Brothers - Hello It's Me,
15.) Loggins & Messina - My Lady, My Love,
16.) Rick Derringer - Teenage Love Affair,
17.) Minnie Riperton - Lovin' You
18.) MFSB - Theme From Soul Train,
19.) Maynard Ferguson - The Fly

You'll notice I'm sticking to Quads now under Sony auspices (I just happen to prefer the way some of Columbia/Epic/PIR's mixing engineers did surround back in the day, compared to the majority of the QS and CD-4 based stuff I've heard) but also make easier to licence & admin, maybe.. some of the tracks I've chosen for their surroundy-ness, some for their hit status/familiarity, some for personal preference cos I just love em in Quad.. anyway, it'll never happen unless we make it happen, AF couldn't make a Surround compilation work, sadly and that was our best shot at this point, so I'll just make my own compilation of all that 'jazz' from my tatty old records and be done with it

ubertrout said:

Of course, you have the sad tale of Silverline to consider...they made a big push in surround for years, had some great titles and some terrible ones, and failed to sell any real volume: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...ctuary-for-50-Million-Over-Dual-Disc-Material. It's clearly incredibly complicated to do licenses for pop vocal music with the complicated copyright issues involved - the labels that have been doing this successfully have all been in the classical realm (notably Pentatone), or licensing instrumental titles with essentially zero popular demand (Vocalion).

I think one way to do this might be as a kickstarter, and it could be done with added incentives (say if you pay $500 you get to come to the mastering session for the day). But I'll caution that the best way to make a small fortune with a venture such as this is to start with a large fortune.

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I think that starting with one million, and carefully selecting the titles, then at the end of it, that money could be recouped, and every release broke even or made money. Or if it lost money, it was not a major loss, but minor. But one would need to steer clear of titles that at one time were considered cool and hot sellers, but today are of very little interest. You don't start with Spring Fever, and you don't start with Summer Breeze. You need They Only Come Out at Night, and Tyranny and Mutation to launch. You need What Were Once Vices, but not a forgotten Gordon Lightfoot album.

I think that a subscription model would help, so everyone is obligated to buy each new album release. And this is where it is tricky, one member wants Bette Midler, and another prefers Shock Treatment.

A lot of the money would be spent on tape research. You hire Bill Inglot to scour the vaults to see just what is there from a list. Because obviously the labels can't be bothered to spend too much time looking.

And now after nearly two years of AF -- and all the other labels that have have already released some of the great quads (the ones that are not lost or deteriorated), mush of the best has now come out already.

rtbluray said:

Then you would end up with something like "The Collection", and from what I gather, that was not a particularly successful venture for Audio Fidelity, both commercially and critically…

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The repeats of things we already had on AF SACD was my only real complaint. And the poor sound on Friends of Distinction track. Since quad tracks are so rare, and this set was to contain tracks we might never see the full albums of, why give us any repeats at all????

Each track was to be like a golden nugget, rare as hell, and things we would never see otherwise, and then they compromised the damn thing with repeated tracks.

Did nobody stand up at a meeting and say wait a minute, these slots on this collection are too important to blown with Beck, and Mahavishna, etc. The collectors who are going to buy this set want fresh new and rare tracks.

I guess not.

quicksrt said:

Did nobody stand up at a meeting and say...

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MEETINGS.

Because none of us are as stupid as we are together...

quicksrt said:

I think that starting with one million, and carefully selecting the titles, then at the end of it, that money could be recouped, and every release broke even or made money. Or if it lost money, it was not a major loss, but minor. But one would need to steer clear of titles that at one time were considered cool and hot sellers, but today are of very little interest. You don't start with Spring Fever, and you don't start with Summer Breeze. You need They Only Come Out at Night, and Tyranny and Mutation to launch. You need What Were Once Vices, but not a forgotten Gordon Lightfoot album.

I think that a subscription model would help, so everyone is obligated to buy each new album release. And this is where it is tricky, one member wants Bette Midler, and another prefers Shock Treatment.

A lot of the money would be spent on tape research. You hire Bill Inglot to scour the vaults to see just what is there from a list. Because obviously the labels can't be bothered to spend too much time looking.

And now after nearly two years of AF -- and all the other labels that have have already released some of the great quads (the ones that are not lost or deteriorated), mush of the best has now come out already.

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I think we all tend to assume that we are like one another in our buying habits, but in reality, we're all very different. The model you described might work if we all shared your buying habits, but we don't. I would be willing to spend $1,000 in a Kickstarter campaign to get the unreleased ES mix of Pretzel Logic out, or the the unreleased Greg Penney mix of "Don't Shoot Me, I'm Only the Piano Player." But I would hesitate before joining a subscription service, and I have no interest whatsoever in an SACD subscription service.

quicksrt said:

Are there fans of quad surround younger than 35 or 39?

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edisonbaggins: /raiseshand

edisonbaggins said:

MEETINGS.

Because none of us are as stupid as we are together...

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United we stand, divided we fall..

This is multichannel we're taking about after all, nobody will get anywhere if they fly solo, imho..
(remember Music Valet?)

edisonbaggins said:

edisonbaggins: /raiseshand

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fredblue: /lowershands
(to the ground in shame at getting decrepit, knuckles draggin in the dirt )

rtbluray said:

Then you would end up with something like "The Collection", and from what I gather, that was not a particularly successful venture for Audio Fidelity, both commercially and critically…

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Actually "The Collection" is one of the bigger sellers among the Audio Fidelity Multichannel SACD releases.
It's supposed lack of sales sounds like another Internet rumor to me...

bmoura said:

Actually "The Collection" is one of the bigger sellers among the Audio Fidelity Multichannel SACD releases.
It's supposed lack of sales sounds like another Internet rumor to me...

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Ok, well thanks for clarifying that.
One thing that's for sure is that it has not been as well-received on here as many of their other Multichannel releases.

bmoura said:

Actually "The Collection" is one of the bigger sellers among the Audio Fidelity Multichannel SACD releases.
It's supposed lack of sales sounds like another Internet rumor to me...

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uhh... hang on a minute, please.. if it was such a big seller why in the name of all that's sane are AF not doing so many surround titles in future and "being more selective"..??

..surely if the Surround collection was such a success then it should have given AF renewed faith in their taking the risk to do surround in the first place,
not brought about this dreaded cold feet type scenario where they're licensing titles with Quads (3 now) and only delivering Stereo??

something just does not add up here..

Great idea, Adam!!!

Now..how about starting with .ISO downloads and then, when it starts rolling , graduating to BD discs (their licensing is just too fucking expensive)????

Ok (I'll try again) seeing as AF's Surround/Quad Collection Volume 1 was such a great success, can we please have a Volume 2?

A MultiCh track listing along these lines and I'll shut my mouth and stop whingeing

1.) Aerosmith - Back In The Saddle,
2.) Edgar Winter - Free Ride,
3.) EWF - That's The Way Of The World,
4.) Jeff Beck - Goodbye Pork Pie Hat,
5.) Billy Joel - Piano Man,
6.) Argent - God Gave Rock & Roll To You,
7.) Hues Corporation - Rock The Boat,
8.) Dave Mason - Bring It On Home To Me,
9.) Harold Melvin - The Love I Lost,
10.) Poco - Rocky Mountain Breakdown,
11.) Redbone - Witch Queen Of New Orleans,
12.) O'Jays - I Love Music,
13.) Raiders - Heaven Help Us All,
14.) Isley Brothers - Hello It's Me,
15.) Loggins & Messina - My Lady, My Love,
16.) Rick Derringer - Teenage Love Affair,
17.) Minnie Riperton - Lovin' You
18.) MFSB - Theme From Soul Train,
19.) Maynard Ferguson - The Fly

rtbluray said:

Ok, well thanks for clarifying that.
One thing that's for sure is that it has not been as well-received on here as many of their other Multichannel releases.

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I guess that shows there isn't necessarily a link between comments on QQ Forum and sales.
In the end, sales - not perceptions or opinions - are what counts.

kap'n krunch said:

Great idea, Adam!!!

Now..how about starting with .ISO downloads and then, when it starts rolling , graduating to BD discs (their licensing is just too fucking expensive)????

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At this point Kap, I could care less what format/media they come on, I just want the bloody Quads from the master tapes that are festering away on some bastard bloody broom cupboard somewhere.

Grrr......!!!!!

bmoura said:

I guess that shows there isn't necessarily a link between comments on QQ Forum and sales.
In the end, sales - not perceptions or opinions - are what counts.

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That's a good reminder, which is why I suppose this entire thread is somewhat futile in the grand scheme of things.
If it would be so easy to have a label where SURROUND SOUND is either the only priority or main priority, then it would have happened by now.

I also think it's fair to say that no release has ever succeeded just on the strength of a surround mix and its inclusion. Releases succeed on the basis of everything that they offer to the consumer, and the more we can understand that, the more we can understand why some releases with surround succeed more than others.

bmoura said:

I guess that shows there isn't necessarily a link between comments on QQ Forum and sales.
In the end, sales - not perceptions or opinions - are what counts.

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Ain't that the truth, what we say at QQ is seemingly quite irrelevant.. i can't think of a single Quad title I initially proposed in that QQ suggestion thread that AF have delivered on.

Janis Ian - Between The Lines,
Chicago - All the Q8's after CTA,
Johnny Mathis - I'm Coming Home,
Bob Dylan - Desire,
Neil Diamond - Serenade,
Janis Joplin - Pearl,
Best Of The Doors,
Creedence Clearwater Revival - Gold,
Justin Hayward & John Lodge - Blue Jays,
Art Garfunkel - Breakaway,
Bette Midler - The Divine Miss M.,
Walter Murphy Band - A Fifth Of Beethoven,
Issac Hayes - Shaft,
Four Tops - Keeper Of The Castle, Main Street People, Meeting Of The Minds,
Edgar Winter - They Only Come Out At Night, White Trash, Shock Treatment,
Rick Derringer - All-American Boy, album w/Edgar Winter,
America - Hearts, Holiday,
Black Sabbath - Paranoid (done properly this time!),
The Stylistics - G.Hits,
Jeff Beck - Wired.

Oh no, hang on, AF did one in Quad (America - Hearts).. for which I am very grateful, I enjoy it to this day.

Rhino did all the Chicago Quads of course (and in spectacular fashion I might add),
MFSL Quadblocked many of the others..
..and I suspect the artists or majors scuppered the others happening through myopia or greed.. or both

rtbluray said:

That's a good reminder, which is why I suppose this entire thread is somewhat futile in the grand scheme of things.
If it would be so easy to have a label where SURROUND SOUND is either the only priority or main priority, then it would have happened by now.

I also think it's fair to say that no release has ever succeeded just on the strength of a surround mix and its inclusion. Releases succeed on the basis of everything that they offer to the consumer, and the more we can understand that, the more we can understand why some releases with surround succeed more than others.

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Scrap it then.

I am clearly wasting my time here.