FIXING THOSE LACK OF SURROUND TITLES (and mistakes)

If anyone knows how to fix some of the less than surround F-UPS, please share.....your thoughts solutions etc.

Some of the titles that immediately come to mind are : THE DOORS-THE DOORS (which requires surround enhancement via a Penteo type mix( or similar).

EMERSON, LAKE,&PALMER-EMERSON, LAKE,&PALMER (which requires surround enhancing with the stereo tracks missing in 5.1......most especially....TANK.

And two 5.1 ???? SACD'S that could use a fix or "ambience elimination"....

DAVE BRUBECK-TIME OUT. and. GEORGE HARRISON-LIVE IN JAPAN

and DEEP PURPLE-CONCERTO FOR GROUP AND ORCHESTRA (DVDA, DVD, SACD)





All suggestions appreciated, of course.

And any other titles you think of, that require "repair" ,, feel free to mention.

IDEALLY and in an Ideal World-they should be Re-issued with missing or corrected surround, by the Labels involved.
But.......that only occurs-WHEN PIGS FLY.

fizzywiggs41 said:

If anyone knows how to fix some of the less than surround F-UPS, please share.....your thoughts solutions etc.

Some of the titles that immediately come to mind are : THE DOORS-THE DOORS (which requires surround enhancement via a Penteo type mix( or similar).

EMERSON, LAKE,&PALMER-EMERSON, LAKE,&PALMER (which requires surround enhancing with the stereo tracks missing in 5.1......most especially....TANK.

And two 5.1 ???? SACD'S that could use a fix or "ambience elimination"....

DAVE BRUBECK-TIME OUT. and. GEORGE HARRISON-LIVE IN JAPAN

and DEEP PURPLE-CONCERTO FOR GROUP AND ORCHESTRA (DVDA, DVD, SACD)

View attachment 27664View attachment 27665View attachment 27666



All suggestions appreciated, of course.

And any other titles you think of, that require "repair" ,, feel free to mention.

IDEALLY and in an Ideal World-they should be Re-issued with missing or corrected surround, by the Labels involved.
But.......that only occurs-WHEN PIGS FLY.

Click to expand...

Regarding Brubeck's TIME OUT, Analogue Productions released a superior THREE CHANNEL SACD which comfortably eclipses the original SONY 'pseudo' multi: http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/83633/Dave_Brubeck_Quartet-Time_Out-Hybrid_3-Channel_Stereo_SACD. Since TIME OUT was originally recorded in three channel and NOT multitracked, the AP remaster is more natural sounding [at least to my ears].....since I have BOTH.

The Doors first album sounds better in hi res DVD~A stereo on my system and if you're expecting the wow factor released on The Best of The Doors 4.0 AP SACD that was probably a mixing decision to bolster the "new" CD~4 QUAD format at the time and remember, it was only originally recorded via four tracks and there's not much to work with.

As for the George Harrison LIVE in Japan and Jon Lord's Concerto for Orchestra....they're more ambient than discrete and unfortunately, that was a recording decision and there's really not much more one can do to repair what wasn't there in the first place. Eagle Rock Entertainment did release Jon Lord's Concerto on BD~V/A in 2013 [BD~A portion is 96/24 5.1] and here's the review: http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Jon-Lord-Concerto-for-Group-and-Orchestra-Blu-ray/77388/#Review. Unfortunately, it does NOT have Deep Purple's involvement as did the original DVD~A. At it's $13 [and less] price point, a No~brainer purchase, IMO, and it also contains a RBCD as well.

As for ELP.....I think it's probably the BEST remix we can reasonably expect and unless they find the missing masters, I wouldn't expect any improvement in our lifetime.:yikes

Thanks for that history lesson,4 earredW.

However I was seeking "solutions" as to how some of these might be turned into actual surround recordings (sans ambience)

All magic tricks appreciated btw.




With regards to the BRUBECK, would you say it's as good or better than Sony's Glenn Gould -Bach Sacd ?
Did A.P. improve on the poor fidelity offered by the Columbia/Sony ?

fizzywiggs41 said:

If anyone knows how to fix some of the less than surround F-UPS, please share.....your thoughts solutions etc.

Some of the titles that immediately come to mind are : THE DOORS-THE DOORS (which requires surround enhancement via a Penteo type mix( or similar).

EMERSON, LAKE,&PALMER-EMERSON, LAKE,&PALMER (which requires surround enhancing with the stereo tracks missing in 5.1......most especially....TANK.

And two 5.1 ???? SACD'S that could use a fix or "ambience elimination"....

DAVE BRUBECK-TIME OUT. and. GEORGE HARRISON-LIVE IN JAPAN

and DEEP PURPLE-CONCERTO FOR GROUP AND ORCHESTRA (DVDA, DVD, SACD)

All suggestions appreciated, of course.

And any other titles you think of, that require "repair" ,, feel free to mention.

IDEALLY and in an Ideal World-they should be Re-issued with missing or corrected surround, by the Labels involved.
But.......that only occurs-WHEN PIGS FLY.

Click to expand...

What you are saying is that the mix and/or mastering (most likely the mix of course) is just not up to standards and YOU could do a better job presenting it if you remastered it yourself.

You're hearing content that is 'out of focus' as it were and feel you could present it better (even working from the already mastered release)!


Been there...

If you're hungry enough and have a clear vision in your head of how to approach it, then go for it!
Sometimes mistakes are made or things are released too quickly (or lo budget) to get the attention they deserved and there is truly enough there (even in the already mixed and released format) to work with to correct or at least improve it (if "correct" is too strong a term).

Every case is unique (just like every studio mastering job is unique).
The first step is to 'hear' a clear vision of the work you want to do in your head.
(eg. "I could phase cancel and remove the mono content from the L,R pair and redirect that to the C channel." "I hear a resonance at 93Hz that is too prominent and making the whole mix sound boomy even at low volume." etc, etc, etc...)
Then you can find the appropriate audio tools and have at it.

Beyond that general comment, you need to ask specific questions directly related to a particular audio task.

Hope that helps!

I'll add that the fact that for a lot of modern releases the format is 24 bit and they haven't been reduced to portable formats and/or crushed with brick wall limiting and eq and volume hyping means that you actually have something left to work with and actual good results are very possible.

For music released during the audio dark ages (the 1990s) that was only released in volume war mangled form on the 16 bit CD format, the short answer is there's nothing you can do but wait for someone to release it properly from the studio masters. Just turn the volume down and hold your nose (ears) for now.


Heh. Yeah, the remains of that first ELP album... What an obnoxious tease!
Since apparently even the original stereo masters have been lost (or are being withheld for some marketing reason), I was thinking I should find a clean 1st vinyl pressing to transfer the lost tracks from and master them to sit well (level-wise) with the SW 5.1 remixes. (I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be interested in considering an upmix beyond stereo for this one though.) I don't have a suitable copy of the 1st album at present unfortunately.

Well for the mostpart I was thinking that the 3 ch jobbies could somehow be rectified.

I was thinking along the lines of left front spread to the back ditto with the right front and having the centre, which is mostly vocal blended more to either left front or right front and keeping the front centre "tame" or limited or ambient.
This gives front to back but not LR-RR .

Something tells me on the Doors quad mix, this is what Botnick had to accomplish with a three track (3 track discrete) back in the early 70's .
So it can be done, but you need the studio wizardry to complete it.


As to how one adds, appropriately "TANK" and missing tracks in 5ch to the rest of the surround DVD-A , well that is a unique trick, I'm guessing.

fizzywiggs41 said:

Well for the mostpart I was thinking that the 3 ch jobbies could somehow be rectified.

I was thinking along the lines of left front spread to the back ditto with the right front and having the centre, which is mostly vocal blended more to either left front or right front and keeping the front centre "tame" or limited or ambient.
This gives front to back but not LR-RR .

Something tells me on the Doors quad mix, this is what Botnick had to accomplish with a three track (3 track discrete) back in the early 70's .
So it can be done, but you need the studio wizardry to complete it.


As to how one adds, appropriately "TANK" and missing tracks in 5ch to the rest of the surround DVD-A , well that is a unique trick, I'm guessing.

Click to expand...

Regarding your first statement, I was somewhat awed by what Monster Music accomplished with their 5.1 Sketches of Spain remix from Columbia/SONY's three track masters....so I suppose it can be done but IMO it was more ambient than discrete but still managed to add 'gravitas' to the original recording. Time Out had MUCH less of a dense mix and I DO prefer AP's 3 channel SACD as I personally feel it really captures Brubeck's intent.....just three musicians playing their hearts out. The SONY multi adds ambience only to the rears...something easily accomplished by employing DSP on your pre/pro.

I wasn't as bummed out by the Doors Perception Box DVD~As because gradually as the Doors progressed to multitrack recording, it was very well translated to the use of discrete surrounds culminating with L.A. Woman (I have the original Warner/Elektra DVD~A as well). Could more have been done with the DOOR's first album......Probably, but again, I have no problem switching to the fantastic DVD~A stereo tracks which on my system does sound SIGNIFICANTLY better. At least it's Hi Res!

Some years ago, some studio exec came up with the bright idea of recropping and releasing the original 4:3 Gone With The Wind in WideScreen. It met with diastrous reviews as it diminished the original intent of the cinematographer and was quickly scrapped as a failed experiment.

Sometimes, LESS is MORE. NOT every album is meant to be re~released in 4.0 or 5.1 especially if it was originally recorded on two, three or four tracks. The law of diminishing returns is sadly in effect here.

4-earredwonder said:

Regarding Brubeck's TIME OUT, Analogue Productions released a superior THREE CHANNEL SACD which comfortably eclipses the original SONY 'pseudo' multi: http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/83633/Dave_Brubeck_Quartet-Time_Out-Hybrid_3-Channel_Stereo_SACD. Since TIME OUT was originally recorded in three channel and NOT multitracked, the AP remaster is more natural sounding [at least to my ears].....since I have BOTH.

Click to expand...

The AP SACD uses exactly the same multichannel track as the Sony SACD. And they don't try to hide it - they admit it openly on the very link you provided: http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/83633/Dave_Brubeck_Quartet-Time_Out-Hybrid_Multichannel_SACD

ubertrout said:

The AP SACD uses exactly the same multichannel track as the Sony SACD. And they don't try to hide it - they admit it openly on the very link you provided: http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/83633/Dave_Brubeck_Quartet-Time_Out-Hybrid_Multichannel_SACD

Click to expand...

I played the AP Brubeck SACD in stereo on my Marantz SA11S3 with my pre/pro set to DIRECT. No DSP was applied and I was aware that AP utilized SONY's original mch master. My point was trying to artifically create a discrete soundfield from Time Out was nigh impossible but in all honesty I don't mind the original SONY mch SACD but the AP stereo is superior, IMO.

Right now I'm playing Analogue Sparks newly remastered Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Cole Porter Songbook (VERVE, Mono SACD). It's listed as a 2 disc set and indeed it is but the first disc is the SACD which contains the entire album on a single layer and ports over the excess RBCD tracks to Disc 2. I have my pre/pro set to MONO and engaged the rear channels. A fantastic sounding SACD especially considering its 1953 vintage and Ella is OUTSTANDING.

Highest Recommendation.

4-earredwonder said:

Sometimes, LESS is MORE. NOT every album is meant to be re~released in 4.0 or 5.1 especially if it was originally recorded on two, three or four tracks. The law of diminishing returns is sadly in effect here.

Click to expand...

Exactly.

Often the distraction comes from level mismatch when comparing to other tracks (if we're talking about mixing tracks from different masters and/or channel formats). You probably already have 5.1 mix albums where the center channel is used as a "front solo channel" and used sparsely or not at all on some tracks. So there's an example of 4.1 & 5.1 mixes coexisting naturally. There's no reason a 2.0 or 3.0 mix can't sit next to a 5.1 mix on an album. You might just have to get the overall level correct. Bass content in the Lfe channel vs. one of the mains is just a mix headroom decision. There is literally no audible difference in bass content directed to one or more of the mains vs. the Lfe channel. (If there is, then something is out of balance in your speaker array!)

I made myself a JT Living in the Past album (sides 2 & 4 that is) a while back that combines the SW 5.1 remixes with the original stereo mixes (for the songs where the multitracks were lost and no remix was possible) and an upmix of Witches Promise that came out OK. The track Just Trying to Be fits right in in stereo and even sounds like the 'effect' was intentional.

Working with something that has been mastered for portable devices would be difficult (eg. a volume war CD release for that missing song). Pretty much impossible to undo the distortion and brutal dynamics squashing. The problem isn't the lack of a multichannel mix, it's the sonic destruction done to make it loud on an iThing.

ubertrout said:

The AP SACD uses exactly the same multichannel track as the Sony SACD. And they don't try to hide it - they admit it openly on the very link you provided: http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/83633/Dave_Brubeck_Quartet-Time_Out-Hybrid_Multichannel_SACD

Click to expand...

My Sony is of very "low fidelity" and quite low in overall sound volume seems to be the problem for the most part.
Additionaly it reads surround and is promo'd as surround . Now I know this isn't the only album to state this on SACD (SONY).

Ambience in the rear channels ?? I doubt this .

I have more ambience on a "gassy" day !


I have a copy of the Zemf Glenn Gould SACD, and that recording has evidentiary "ambience", there is no doubt in my observations.
Is the A.P. reissue of "TIME OUT" an improvement over the Sony ? And if so, how ? (Better fidelity, ambience, etc).

Can anyone comment on that SACD as an improvement ??

4-earredwonder said:

I played the AP Brubeck SACD in stereo on my Marantz SA11S3 with my pre/pro set to DIRECT. No DSP was applied and I was aware that AP utilized SONY's original mch master. My point was trying to artifically create a discrete soundfield from Time Out was nigh impossible but in all honesty I don't mind the original SONY mch SACD but the AP stereo is superior, IMO.

Right now I'm playing Analogue Sparks newly remastered Ella Fitzgerald Sings the Cole Porter Songbook (VERVE, Mono SACD). It's listed as a 2 disc set and indeed it is but the first disc is the SACD which contains the entire album on a single layer and ports over the excess RBCD tracks to Disc 2. I have my pre/pro set to MONO and engaged the rear channels. A fantastic sounding SACD especially considering its 1953 vintage and Ella is OUTSTANDING.

Highest Recommendation.

Click to expand...

I actually have a modicum (small though) of preference to some older recordings (50's, early 60's) released in SACD MONO !


But I must say we should not give up on an opportunity to hear an older recording in surround . Just because it is only three track , should not always relegate it to front only 3 ch . A good mixer/engineer can accomplish some form of surround with even 2 tracks. Hell , Mark Linnet did it with a Mono Track (Pet Sounds).
There may also be instances where most tracks are mixed to surround and some in stereo.This is to me is an exception I can find most tolerable if the alternate would be "stereo only".