Involve Surround Master?

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V

Varian

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Hi,
Do any of you use the Involve Surround Master? If So. What do you use as the input for the involve Surround Master and what do you use as the output for the Involve Surround Master? Also How would you rate the Involve Surround Master? Do you think it better that the Sansui QRX-9001? The Same as the Sansui QRX-9001? Or Worst then the Sansui QRX-9001? Write back. Thank You Any & All Info. in advice.

Sincerely,
Varian
 
Hi,
Do any of you use the Involve Surround Master? If So. What do you use as the input for the involve Surround Master and what do you use as the output for the Involve Surround Master? Also How would you rate the Involve Surround Master? Do you think it better that the Sansui QRX-9001? The Same as the Sansui QRX-9001? Or Worst then the Sansui QRX-9001? Write back. Thank You Any & All Info. in advice.

Sincerely,
Varian
 
Hi,
Do any of you use the Involve Surround Master? If So. What do you use as the input for the involve Surround Master and what do you use as the output for the Involve Surround Master? Also How would you rate the Involve Surround Master? Do you think it better that the Sansui QRX-9001? The Same as the Sansui QRX-9001? Or Worst then the Sansui QRX-9001? Write back. Thank You Any & All Info. in advice.

Sincerely,
Varian

The Surround master Is as Good as the QSD1
Witch is a 3 Band decoder
It is a better QS decoder than you have in the in the QRX-9001
The word Involve = QS
You would take the outputs from a 4 channel tape front left and right to 2 channel in to Surround master
Then the 4 channel outputs on the Surround master into to 4 Channel inputs of the tape in
then switch to the tape monitor you are using
Also if you buy the Surround master with SQ vinyl
You will get the best SQ decoding also a 3 band decoder
Also as good as the Tate SQ also It is the only 3 band SQ decoder made for sale
So you will get the best of the 2 Matrix Quad Systems in 1 unit never been done before
 
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The Surround master Is as Good as the QSD1
Witch is a 3 Band decoder
It is a better QS decoder than you have in the in the QRX-9001
The word Involve = QS
You would take the outputs from a 4 channel tape front left and right to 2 channel in to Surround master
Then the 4 channel outputs on the Surround master into to 4 Channel inputs of the tape in
then switch to the tape monitor you are using
Also if you buy the Surround master with SQ vinyl
You will get the best SQ decoding also a 3 band decoder
Also as good as the Tate SQ also It is the only 3 band SQ decoder made for sale
So you will get the best of the 2 Matrix Quad Systems in 1 unit never been done before
100% agree.This piece does an amazing job with both QS and SQ matrix sources. Get it now!!!! You need to use a line level for input so you cant just plug your turntable into it. I have mine plugged into my multichannel sound card on my computer which, in turn, is hooked into my Yamaha receiver.
 
Hi. Varian
Hi,
Do any of you use the Involve Surround Master? If So. What do you use as the input for the involve Surround Master and what do you use as the output for the Involve Surround Master? Also How would you rate the Involve Surround Master? Do you think it better that the Sansui QRX-9001? The Same as the Sansui QRX-9001? Or Worst then the Sansui QRX-9001? Write back. Thank You Any & All Info. in advice.

Sincerely,
Varian

I totally agree with "rustyandi" & "Bob Romano" there has been quite a view QQ members how bought into the Surround Master the new SQ & QS unit and want part with it for any money I think?????.......:music
I do have one and I would not part with it... it is as good as the best if not better the SM unit is a analog device, stereo line in select the matrix and 4 line outs ( front left-front-right--back left-back-right ) you could use 2 Stereo amps one front one back or a Surround Receiver with 5.1 or 7.1 Aug: inputs just use the 4 input and away you go.
The Sansui QRX 9001 was the top receiver for it`s time but would need to be fully restored to get the best out of the unit but at the end of the day the Surround Master is a modern unit and nothing come close to it as a matrix decoder...
Bill..
 
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100% agree.This piece does an amazing job with both QS and SQ matrix sources. Get it now!!!! You need to use a line level for input so you cant just plug your turntable into it. I have mine plugged into my multichannel sound card on my computer which, in turn, is hooked into my Yamaha receiver.

The Surround Master is very effective on Dolby Surround encoded CDs from RCA and on older movies on DVD that have a Stereo Dolby Surround track.
Surround Master turns these into well done Surround Sound - ironically with better results than the Dolby decoding in my experience! :)
 
had a play around with some encoded CDs last night and straight off the bat you can forget the Telarc Surround Sound CDs thru Involve mode if you want anything approaching more than just a whiff of a sensation of surround.. the basic spatial cues seem kinda right so things appear to pop up here there and everywhere during passages of music.. but when it comes to the white noise channel identification tests on the Telarc Surround Sounds disc (Tracks 18-24 on CD-80447) you just get doubled up FL + SL or FR + SR with no separation, unfortunately.

tbh I think I preferred a few of these Telarc tracks thru PLII Music (Centre Off, Panorama On) that didn't get the tests right either but the overall effect seemed more engagingly "surround-y".. oh well you can't win 'em all.

the Surround Master does some things well (QS and SQ = largely excellent) but Telarc Surround Sound CDs doesn't seem to be one of them.. onto the Dolby Surround discs tonight! :)
 
Ok, lets see if we can clear this up for once and for all so that some people can stop getting bombarded by multiple PMs of the same questions repeated if they aren't responded to immediately or to your satisfaction...


One thing to point out, the Sansui is a receiver/amplifier, the Surround Master is a stand alone decoder (no amplification), so your comparing apples and oranges.


Being that your past questions have included asking about the possibility of converting rap mp3s to SACD to get your favorite artists in surround (which, for the record, not a good idea), we can surmise that your interest is not in vintage quadraphonic material, and so your best solution is going to be a setup that synthesizes surround sound from stereo sources.

So, you'll probably not want to bother with things like SACD, DVD-A, or vintage equipment.


If you already have a surround amp with a pro logic II decoder by chance, a good start would be enabling that and trying your music collection through that. That might be a good starting point....pick up a modern receiver that has pro-logic II, throw that on, and see how that does with your mp3 collection.

If you do want to try out the surround master, you'll want to get a receiver that has an external decoder input. You can then run the line output or tape output into the decoder, and then run the outputs of the decoder into the external decoder inputs. Then when you enable the tape monitor feature, you'll hear your source decoded through the involve.

You could also connect the surround master to a vintage quadraphonic amplifier by using the tape output and quad tape input. But, since you're probably not interested in vintage quadraphonic material (SQ, QS, and such), there's really no good reason I see to deal with old equipment that may break down and need to be refurbished. A modern receiver will be quite adequate for your mp3 collection.
 
had a play around with some encoded CDs last night and straight off the bat you can forget the Telarc Surround Sound CDs thru Involve mode if you want anything approaching more than just a whiff of a sensation of surround.. the basic spatial cues seem kinda right so things appear to pop up here there and everywhere during passages of music.. but when it comes to the white noise channel identification tests on the Telarc Surround Sounds disc (Tracks 18-24 on CD-80447) you just get doubled up FL + SL or FR + SR with no separation, unfortunately.

tbh I think I preferred a few of these Telarc tracks thru PLII Music (Centre Off, Panorama On) that didn't get the tests right either but the overall effect seemed more engagingly "surround-y".. oh well you can't win 'em all.

the Surround Master does some things well (QS and SQ = largely excellent) but Telarc Surround Sound CDs doesn't seem to be one of them.. onto the Dolby Surround discs tonight! :)

Remember that many of the Telarc "surround" CDs are actually Spatializer encoded recordings that aren't really surround sound, but rather enhanced Stereo, based on what the Spatializer developer says.
However, some of the later ones are indeed Dolby Surround encoded. The Dolby Surround encoded ones should turn out better via the Surround Master.

The non-QS and non-SQ CDs I've found quite interesting are the ones from RCA that are Dolby Surround encoded.
In particular, check out The Pink Panther and Other Hits by Henry Mancini (white album cover) in Dolby Surround.
Available from Amazon for $4.99! Quite good in Involve mode with the Surround Master.

Pink Panther in Dolby Surround - 513OF9710uL._SS500.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/Pink-Panther-Other-Hits/dp/B001V8J7WM/
 
The Surround Master is very effective on Dolby Surround encoded CDs from RCA and on older movies on DVD that have a Stereo Dolby Surround track.
Surround Master turns these into well done Surround Sound - ironically with better results than the Dolby decoding in my experience! :)

Hi Brian - Am assuming with the Surround Master you would do your Dolby Surround decoding in the QS mode? And if so, how is the center channel extraction, if any?
 
Hi Brian - Am assuming with the Surround Master you would do your Dolby Surround decoding in the QS mode? And if so, how is the center channel extraction, if any?

You can try both QS/Involve and SQ modes with Dolby Surround. QS/Involve delivers better results here.
Interestingly the Surround Master decodes do give you stereo surround playback even though Dolby Surround technically has a mono surround channel.
 
You can try both QS/Involve and SQ modes with Dolby Surround. QS/Involve delivers better results here.
Interestingly the Surround Master decodes do give you stereo surround playback even though Dolby Surround technically has a mono surround channel.

The stereo surrounds are not too surprising, as with Dolby Surround encoding a 90 degree encoded phase shift is in essence an interior channel, that when decoded properly in Dolby Surround, will play out of all five speakers and also will not interfere with decoders using variable phase cancellation logic, as the "all channel" bleed through from the interior encoding is benign. With SQ (not sure about QS), the 90 degree phase shifted channels are the left and right rear, with the 180 degree center back being Dolby Surround compatible. There's obviously much more to the SQ equations than simply this, but this nutshell explanation shows why SQ would get one close, even if it's a bit unbalanced.

Does the Involve offer a true steered center channel or is it a mono summed output?
 
Hi

Its a fully steered and separated tri band, center channel- shit it was hard to do!

Regards

Chucky

The stereo surrounds are not too surprising, as with Dolby Surround encoding a 90 degree encoded phase shift is in essence an interior channel, that when decoded properly in Dolby Surround, will play out of all five speakers and also will not interfere with decoders using variable phase cancellation logic, as the "all channel" bleed through from the interior encoding is benign. With SQ (not sure about QS), the 90 degree phase shifted channels are the left and right rear, with the 180 degree center back being Dolby Surround compatible. There's obviously much more to the SQ equations than simply this, but this nutshell explanation shows why SQ would get one close, even if it's a bit unbalanced.

Does the Involve offer a true steered center channel or is it a mono summed output?
 
Hi

Its a fully steered and separated tri band, center channel- shit it was hard to do!

Regards

Chucky

Centre's great in Involve/QS mode.. but its way louder than FL/FR/SL/SR in SQ mode than in Involve/QS mode and so no good for SQ.. actually SQ decodes seem to be much lower level output generally than Involve/QS mode stuff (not a gripe at all just an observation, you know I'm a MEGAAAAA fan of your Surround Master!!).

Ps. How are you getting on with the CD-4 gizmo?
Hope you work your magic on it soon, I'm dying on the bones of my ass here with two shitty JVC's (one = kaput demodulatormacator in ein kanal, t'uther = sppppplaatttttt-a-thonic..)

PPs. Is there any way the Surround Master could be upgraded to enable it to cancel out info (primarily lead vocals) that's bled from front to back with SQ & QS?

PPI-Ps. THANKS for the Surround Master, it is MAGNIFICENT.
 
Centre's great in Involve/QS mode.. but its way louder than FL/FR/SL/SR in SQ mode than in Involve/QS mode and so no good for SQ.. actually SQ decodes seem to be much lower level output generally than Involve/QS mode stuff (not a gripe at all just an observation, you know I'm a MEGAAAAA fan of your Surround Master!!).

Ps. How are you getting on with the CD-4 gizmo?
Hope you work your magic on it soon, I'm dying on the bones of my ass here with two shitty JVC's (one = kaput demodulatormacator in ein kanal, t'uther = sppppplaatttttt-a-thonic..)

PPs. Is there any way the Surround Master could be upgraded to enable it to cancel out info (primarily lead vocals) that's bled from front to back with SQ & QS?

PPI-Ps. THANKS for the Surround Master, it is MAGNIFICENT.

Hey there FB,

Charlie is a little bit tied up being insane at the moment so I'll field this one,

The center channel decode on SQ mode was an approximation because of the way the hardware was designed.

The 5.1 mode (the alternate center and front outputs) are done in parallel in a separate processor, and use a single firmware, it was found it would be at the least useful for SQ in its own state because the front left and right channel detection for the purposes of deriving a center channel are close to the same. The issue being, the switch at the front was only designed to switch between our two channel decode or Involve when we made the original Surround Master.

The SQ edition was done at the request of the QQ forums and made to fit the existing hardware to keep the additional development costs down for the sake of all. What it means is, flicking the switch to SQ changes the mode for the four-channel output but the additional outputs for 5.1 remain unchanged. To be perfectly honest we didn't anticipate anyone would want to use a center channel for SQ, given the amount of feedback we got about getting the decode correct and accurate to the original intention.

I guess it would be as simple as adding an attenuator to the center channel output if you're really super-keen on having a center channel for SQ, just a pot would do it, or something sexier if you're that way inclined.

As for removing center vocals from the rear bleed through, there are a couple of issues, but the biggest one would be that it could interfere with the intended reverb / echo in the recording, trying to distinguish between bleed and echo or environmental ambiance in that situation would be near impossible - Also and especially if the recording intended (or unintentionally resulted in) the center vocal being in the middle of the room rather than the front-center speakers.
Both conundrums and unfortunate limitations of the format.

I'm prepared to have a mess around with the idea and see if it leads anywhere, but I wouldn't get my hopes up - it would likely require an additional control where the amount of rear-removal could be adjusted on a per-recording basis as it would be almost impossible to do automatically.

I'm glad you're enjoying it - tell your friends! Tell your enemies! Grab some guy off the street and tell him - and then tell the prosecuting attorney that I said you were allowed to. I'm sure after a quick listen the magistrate will understand and throw the whole matter out of court.

Yours in a white wine sauce
~David (Bitch, first class)
 
Oh, as for the CD-4 project, we haven't forgotten about it, it has just taken a bit of a back seat at the moment in light of the drama of changing offices / factories, and the current projects which include getting the final version Y4 units for our Indiegogo campaign completed and sent out, and the new encoder and Y2 systems designed and produced - also our new hybrid esl monitor speaker that has been in design for a while is going into prototype testing and looking good.

It has not been forgotten - promise. :)

~D
 
Oh, as for the CD-4 project, we haven't forgotten about it, it has just taken a bit of a back seat at the moment in light of the drama of changing offices / factories, and the current projects which include getting the final version Y4 units for our Indiegogo campaign completed and sent out, and the new encoder and Y2 systems designed and produced - also our new hybrid esl monitor speaker that has been in design for a while is going into prototype testing and looking good.

It has not been forgotten - promise. :)

~D

That's music to my ears. :)

Best of luck with the move and the with the ongoing projects.
 
Hey there FB,

Charlie is a little bit tied up being insane at the moment so I'll field this one,

The center channel decode on SQ mode was an approximation because of the way the hardware was designed.

The 5.1 mode (the alternate center and front outputs) are done in parallel in a separate processor, and use a single firmware, it was found it would be at the least useful for SQ in its own state because the front left and right channel detection for the purposes of deriving a center channel are close to the same. The issue being, the switch at the front was only designed to switch between our two channel decode or Involve when we made the original Surround Master.

The SQ edition was done at the request of the QQ forums and made to fit the existing hardware to keep the additional development costs down for the sake of all. What it means is, flicking the switch to SQ changes the mode for the four-channel output but the additional outputs for 5.1 remain unchanged. To be perfectly honest we didn't anticipate anyone would want to use a center channel for SQ, given the amount of feedback we got about getting the decode correct and accurate to the original intention.

I guess it would be as simple as adding an attenuator to the center channel output if you're really super-keen on having a center channel for SQ, just a pot would do it, or something sexier if you're that way inclined.

As for removing center vocals from the rear bleed through, there are a couple of issues, but the biggest one would be that it could interfere with the intended reverb / echo in the recording, trying to distinguish between bleed and echo or environmental ambiance in that situation would be near impossible - Also and especially if the recording intended (or unintentionally resulted in) the center vocal being in the middle of the room rather than the front-center speakers.
Both conundrums and unfortunate limitations of the format.

I'm prepared to have a mess around with the idea and see if it leads anywhere, but I wouldn't get my hopes up - it would likely require an additional control where the amount of rear-removal could be adjusted on a per-recording basis as it would be almost impossible to do automatically.

I'm glad you're enjoying it - tell your friends! Tell your enemies! Grab some guy off the street and tell him - and then tell the prosecuting attorney that I said you were allowed to. I'm sure after a quick listen the magistrate will understand and throw the whole matter out of court.

Yours in a white wine sauce
~David (Bitch, first class)

Thanks for all the info David, you're an amazing Super Bitch! MWAH! :p

fwiw I think the removal of FTB bled vocals is something that could be implemented automatically without any adjustment since if you sum the rear channels to mono of any Surround Master SQ decode all CF vocals that have bled to the rears magically disappear.. I've tried it on loads of SQ LPs and it works every time, those vocals are gone, or rather transferred into a rather pleasing v.faint reverbed vocal, that I suspect is inherent in the original 4-chhanel master mix as intentional reverbed CF vocals to give the mix some added ambience and life rather than it just be kinda dry and flat with no trace of the CF vocals at all back there.. and what leads me to believe this is accurate and not a fruitless endeavour is that everything else that the Surround Master pans back there is intact, in fact details in the rears are brought out better than ever when you sum the rears to mono, they're totally discrete and just gorgeous.. please check out these samples when you get a minute to see what I'm wittering on about? :eek:

All You Wanna Do Is Dance/BJ (rears only decoded by SQ Vinyl Surround Master as is)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p3f313ywbf0r7pu/Turnstiles SQ LP Trk 03 - Rears Only As Decoded.flac?dl=0

All You Wanna Do Is Dance/BJ (rears only decoded by SQ Vinyl Surround Master and summed to mono)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s0yganqnr4r7xcr/Turnstiles SQ LP Trk 03 - Rears Summed To Mono.flac?dl=0

At Seventeen/Janis Ian (rears only decoded by SQ Vinyl Surround Master as is)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dn2b2372c... SQ LP Trk 02 - Rears Decoded As Is.flac?dl=0

At Seventeen/Janis Ian (rears only decoded by SQ Vinyl Surround Master and summed to mono)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/oqq9cg9ii...k 02 - Rears Only x2 Summed To Mono.flac?dl=0
 
Hi

Its a fully steered and separated tri band, center channel- shit it was hard to do!

Regards

Chucky

WOW! That's very cool, as I didn't realize the SM had a true center out. When when using the 5.1 outputs, does this mean the center channel information is removed from the left and right front channels?
 
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