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Thread: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by chucky3042 View Post
    Hi Proufo

    Yes you would be right except that you will perceive pumping louder than the -12 db and that is the issue- its not a little bit.

    Regards

    Charlie
    AoQs Tate samples showed very low levels of bleeding (pumping, yes).

    Did any of the testers specifically recognized objectionable pumping from the Tate?
    Pablo Roufogalis L.
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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    I have been following this thread since its inception and every time I read it my head spins a little.

    My first and foremost question would be a simple one: Did the brainiacs that devised SQ back in the early 70's ever get it to work properly. After hearing the discrete master tape from which the SQ LPs evolved, wasn't there even a hint that what the tapes contained and what the SQ matrix discs decoded, which I'm sure was via a state of the art system at the time, had little correlation between each other. I suspect this is why a LOT of artists shied away from committing to the matrix systems and stuck with stereo.

    CD~4 was a step in the right direction....but was it really?


    I was SO turned off to ALL the Vinyl surround schemes that I immediately switched to QUAD open reel but of course we all know that the 1000's of SQ/QS/CD~4 titles were never subsequently released on QUAD OR.

    And my only question today would be if one had a step up phono transformers for their turntables then one would have to go from the turntable to the step up transformer and then to the Involve Surround Master prior to connection to the pre pro and as a purist, way too many wires for me.....and if you're not using higher end cables then there would be 'somewhat' of a signal degradation, IMO, from turntable to pre/pro.

    I am in NO way knocking those who love their matrix vinyl but all I can say (and I know this has been shared by many others) is when these old QUAD analogue masters are transferred to QUAD SACD, DVD~A and/or BD~A, the anomalies that plagued the Vinyl matrix replications have been lifted with no artifacts whatsoever.

    Hope I didn't offend anybody by putting my two cents worth in, but even though I have a very expensive turntable/arm/cartridge and separate vacuum pump literally sitting in mothballs, I could never go back.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    all that misses the point of it for me, there are some excellent CBS Quads only ever in SQ LP form (including Billy Joel "Turnstiles", Loggins & Messina "Native Sons", Johnnie Taylor "Eargasm", BT Express "Energy To Burn", Janis Ian "Between The Lines", O'Jays "Survival" & "Family Reunion", Harold Melvin "Wake Up Everybody", Isley Brothers "Harvest For The World", MFSB "Philadelphia Freedom" with hits like "Disco Lady", "At Seventeen", "New York State Of Mind", "I Love Music", "Don't Leave Me This Way" etc)
    and i would like to try and squeeze every last drop out of these SQ discs as its all we've got unless/until the discrete 4-ch masters ever make it out on SACD or something.

    obviously keep it listenable, keep it musical, keep pumping at bay.. but when you take the resulting decoded rears of an SQ LP once its been processed thru the Surround Master and sum them to mono, post-decode you get no artefacts, just lots of lovely isolated rear channel elements.. so the artefacts must occur when that process happens on the fly I guess?
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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by chucky3042 View Post

    I said at the time we agreed to make an SQ version of the SM that we were not going to do a numbers war.
    If my experience of the SM is anything to go by this was entirely the right decision.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by proufo View Post
    AoQs Tate samples showed very low levels of bleeding (pumping, yes).

    Did any of the testers specifically recognized objectionable pumping from the Tate?

    I did. Specifically "Sweet Emotion". Am not sure if my results were included in the final tally, as I turned mine in late April, which may have been considered late at that time. I tried to tally the results sifting through the 2 1/2 hour quadquast, and don't think mine were, as I preferred the Surround Master for Sweet Emotion for this reason.

    Going through the quadcast and getting the results of what A and B were, for my listening results, I preferred the Surround Master half the time, and the Tate the other half. Per the listening test requests, I purposely didn't isolate channels when auditioning the two matrix decoded tracks.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by Wunlow View Post
    I did. Specifically "Sweet Emotion". Am not sure if my results were included in the final tally, as I turned mine in late April, which may have been considered late at that time. I tried to tally the results sifting through the 2 1/2 hour quadquast, and don't think mine were, as I preferred the Surround Master for Sweet Emotion for this reason.

    Going through the quadcast and getting the results of what A and B were, for my listening results, I preferred the Surround Master half the time, and the Tate the other half. Per the listening test requests, I purposely didn't isolate channels when auditioning the two matrix decoded tracks.
    Many thanks Wunlow.
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    (The Ambiance Pariah)

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    I was worried about one of the emails getting lost in the shuffle. Between the time I dragged my heels, converting over from yahoo to gmail (due to the constant security nags I was getting every time I checked my email), and always being in a rush, I overlooked that email when I did a search to find any I may have forgotten to save over in the folder for that. I found it, and added it to the tally.

    Here's the final count.

    Billy Joel - Travelin' Prayer - Involve - 1 Tate - 3
    Aerosmith - Sweet Emotion - Involve - 1 Tate - 3
    Larry Coryell - Funky Waltz - Involve - 1 Tate - 3
    E. Power Biggs - Involve - 2 Tate - 3


    I still need to finish up some disc authoring for the Tate vs. software decoding portion of the shoot out, and am a bit tied up the rest of this week and weekend, I should be able to get that ready next week.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    This is my take on the Tate II and SM units. But first, I would like to say this about Columbia/cbs/Sony. They seem to sabotage their own innovations. When sacd was being promoted it was touted for its compatibility with cd. It could have a stereo sacd layer and a multi-channel sacd layer along with the fully compatible cd layer. So what does Columbia/cbs/Sony do when they introduce the sacd, a single layer stereo sacd without a cd layer with a higher price over cd. They should have at a minimum had a cd layer. When you tout the sacd's compatibility why would you continue to have a dual inventory? They did exactly the same thing with SQ quad. Massive promotion of its compatibility with regular stereo. They raised the price and continued to promote the stereo only versions with a dual inventory. Also, they should not have introduced quad with ineffective decoders. At a minimum they should have introduced it when full logic wave matching decoders became available. Rant over.

    First, This was strictly a listening test, I didn't use the shoot-out files, no vector scope or Sound Forge (looks fantastic and expensive with a LONG learning curve) that ArmyofQuad uses to analyze material. My phono amp is connected directly to the SM and its output goes into the multi-channel inputs of my Pre-processor. Connection and disconnection of cables to change sources on my fairly complex system was just not going to happen. Luckily, I came upon a Lyn Anderson(Rose Garden) SQ lp that also included a dvd-audio (24/96) multi-channel version of the album decoded with the Fosgate 101A Tate ll unit. So this was my opportunity to compare a Tate ll decoded album to my SM.

    Let me say one has to listen pretty hard for any anomalies that in casual listening may not be noticed. On the Tate version I did notice some pumping, although minimal. On one occasion it momentarily pulled the center front (vocal) to the rear when the unit was steering information to the rear channels. Not at all a bad listening experience. I noticed on one cut that the guitar didn't quite make it to the rear right but was clearly rear right on the SM. To me the SM rear was more stable, absolutely no pumping. The front center vocal bleed on the SM amounted to more ambience to the rear, not at all unpleasant, but different than the Tate. Overall, I preferred the SM in this listening test.

    My next tests were to compare the SM with discreet sacd releases, in this case all from Audio Fidelity. The albums were Loggins and Messina (self titled), Loggins and Messina (Full Sail), Jeff Beck Group (self titled), Blood, Sweat & Tears(self titled). My first test was to make sure they were the same mixes. All were the same mixes. I did eliminate the Full Sail sacd from the test because the rear channels were reversed compared to the lp version. I also assumed that the Audio Fidelity albums (like most audiophile releases) were made from the original master mixes, more on this later.

    When you think about this, comparing 45 year old SQ lp's pressed from safety copies of the master mix to what amounts to the master tapes isn't exactly a fair test, but read on. First, I made sure speaker levels were matched between the lp and sacd versions. My copies of these albums are mint and quiet and have been in my collection since new (early 70's).

    These are just listening tests, not blind or double blind, just switching from one source to the other. So not super comprehensive, but I did spend several hours listening and switching. I would listen to a portion of a cut then listen to the same portion on the other source, switching several times. First test, Loggins and Messina (self titled). This lp acquits itself very well compared to the sacd. In fact, several times I lost track of which source I had selected and had to look and see if it was the lp or sacd. I could not detect (or it was so low) any center front vocal bleeding compared to the sacd. These mixes were so close that I wonder if the Audio Fidelity was actually made from the same safety copy mixes as the lp and not the master mixes. The sacd does perform better, but unless you can switch between them it's really hard to tell. The Jeff Beck was essentially the same with a bit more vocal bleeding. But even with that I lost track and had to look to see which was playing. High praise for these lp's and the SM.

    The big disappointment was the Blood, Sweat & Tears(self titled) lp. This was not a prime copy, but acceptable ( I have another copy coming hoping it's better and I will retest). The front vocal bleeding was very noticeable with a tilt to the right front. The channel separation was not nearly as distinct as the sacd. In this case the sacd was incomparably better in every way. So, is this an encoding and/or pressing anomaly. Or is it the SM, I'm guessing the former. The question of center front vocal bleeding seems to be a function of the source material from my experience.

    Other observations. I have noticed the front vocal bleeding with a tilt to the right on other lp's. One example: I have the Santana Abraxas lp with some vocals on side 2 with the vocal front right. When compared to the dts quad version the vocal was center front. Compared to another copy of the lp the vocal was more centered with some bleeding. So there can be pressing anomalies and/or encoding problems. Not all albums are cut from the same safety copy of the mix. However, these anomalies aside, I couldn't be more happy with the SM. All in all it is a remarkable achievement.

    One more thing, I enjoy the shoot-outs and testing and hope these kind of comparisons continue. But I have one sincere recommendation, set that all aside occasionally and just take the time to sit down and listen to the music and enjoy.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Great post riknik, thanks for posting your findings.

    And I agree with you about Columbia/Sony. We can wonder forever if they had decided to go all single inventory back in the '70s with any album that had a quad mix, much like Ovation did. And also the SACD should have been a slam dunk, but in retrospect I would imagine they did not have the manufacturing capacity to release only SACD's for those titles with both mixes. And did they HAVE to dump their own format for.............DualDisc?

    Alas, it's all water under the bridge now. But thanks for posting your results. It's interesting to hear how close the SM decodes really are to the discrete AF SACDs.
    :-jon

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Really great post Riknick!

    You are correct re the image issues on Blood sweat and Tears. As mentioned previously even a small 1 db mismatch on level in SQ can make the positioning go whoops!

    Its a crap format

    Regards

    Chucky

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    This is a followup to my previous post "This is my take on the Tate II and SM units". I did a couple of quick comparisons to discreet sacdís. I received another copy of the Blood, Sweat & Tears (self titled) SQ lp. I wanted to compare this copy to the one previously reviewed to see if they decoded differently. This was an excellent copy with some record noise for the first minute or so then MN- silence. Compared to the other copy tested, the front center vocals were front center with some rear channel bleeding. The channel separation and locations were very stable compared to the sacd and the other lp. This lp acquits itself very well compared to the sacd.

    I just received the UK SQ pressing of "Dark Side of the Moon". It was difficult to adjust the speaker levels between the lp and sacd versions so that they were matched. I attribute this to the sacd having more dynamic range. It also sounded like the tape it was made from was at least a generation closer to the original or perhaps it was the original master mix. On the lp the front center vocals had a noticeable tilt to the right front. The channel separation was as distinct as the sacd. Again, this is another lp that acquits itself very well compared to the sacd, with the exception of the front vocal bleeding. If you'd never heard the discreet version one might conclude that this was normal.

    I speculated in my original post if there could be pressing anomalies and/or encoding problems to cause these anomalies and differences between the same albums. Not all albums are cut from the same safety copy of the mix. If any of you have other theories of what might cause these differences, speak up.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by riknik View Post
    I just received the UK SQ pressing of "Dark Side of the Moon". It was difficult to adjust the speaker levels between the lp and sacd versions so that they were matched. I attribute this to the sacd having more dynamic range.
    The fact that the SACD is a completely different mix done decades later by a different engineer may also be a factor.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by riknik View Post
    This is a followup to my previous post "This is my take on the Tate II and SM units". I did a couple of quick comparisons to discreet sacdís. I received another copy of the Blood, Sweat & Tears (self titled) SQ lp. I wanted to compare this copy to the one previously reviewed to see if they decoded differently. This was an excellent copy with some record noise for the first minute or so then MN- silence. Compared to the other copy tested, the front center vocals were front center with some rear channel bleeding. The channel separation and locations were very stable compared to the sacd and the other lp. This lp acquits itself very well compared to the sacd.

    I just received the UK SQ pressing of "Dark Side of the Moon". It was difficult to adjust the speaker levels between the lp and sacd versions so that they were matched. I attribute this to the sacd having more dynamic range. It also sounded like the tape it was made from was at least a generation closer to the original or perhaps it was the original master mix. On the lp the front center vocals had a noticeable tilt to the right front. The channel separation was as distinct as the sacd. Again, this is another lp that acquits itself very well compared to the sacd, with the exception of the front vocal bleeding. If you'd never heard the discreet version one might conclude that this was normal.

    I speculated in my original post if there could be pressing anomalies and/or encoding problems to cause these anomalies and differences between the same albums. Not all albums are cut from the same safety copy of the mix. If any of you have other theories of what might cause these differences, speak up.

    The Alan Parsons 4.0 mix on the DSOTM Immersion Blu Ray matches the SQ LP, not the James Guthrie 5.1 remix on SACD

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by atrocity View Post
    The fact that the SACD is a completely different mix done decades later by a different engineer may also be a factor.
    This may be a completely different mix, but the lf, rf, lr, and rr matches the lp, except on the lp the front center vocals had a tilt to the right front. This was a relatively quick test so I will revisit this when time permits. I could be mistaken. If they remixed it they didn't change much that I could detect. They may have used equalization judiciously, which could explain some of the sonic differences.

    I have a couple of sacd's I bought because they were supposedly remixed and better than the originals I had, but they sounded the same to me. It turned out they were bit for bit identical. Buyer beware.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by riknik View Post
    If they remixed it they didn't change much that I could detect.


    The differences between Alan Parson's original 4.0 mix of DSotM and Guthries's more recent 5.1 remix have been quite thoroughly discussed here on QQ. They are quite a bit different!
    I recommend getting a hold of the Bluray from the Immersion Box, so that you can compare the two mixes. From there you can do comparisons to the LP in whatever manner you wish.
    Multichannel FLAC downloads and more:
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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by edisonbaggins View Post


    The differences between Alan Parson's original 4.0 mix of DSotM and Guthries's more recent 5.1 remix have been quite thoroughly discussed here on QQ. They are quite a bit different!
    I recommend getting a hold of the Bluray from the Immersion Box, so that you can compare the two mixes. From there you can do comparisons to the LP in whatever manner you wish.
    The multi-channel mix I have is an sacd I got in 2003 on Capital and is the same as the lp with the differences I have noted. I have not heard Guthries's more recent 5.1 remix, so I cannot comment on that. Looks like we are trying to compare apples with oranges. I would love to find that Blu-ray 5.1 mix you are using as a comparison. I wasn't trying to stir up an argument or rehash an old discussion. It was merely an opinion and a listening observation.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by riknik View Post
    The multi-channel mix I have is an sacd I got in 2003 on Capital and is the same as the lp with the differences I have noted. I have not heard Guthries's more recent 5.1 remix, so I cannot comment on that. Looks like we are trying to compare apples with oranges. I would love to find that Blu-ray 5.1 mix you are using as a comparison. I wasn't trying to stir up an argument or rehash an old discussion. It was merely an opinion and a listening observation.
    That 2003 SACD is the Guthrie mix. It was completely remixed, from the source multi-tracks. Any similarity to the original 4.0 mix is just incidental. It stands to reason that some similar decisions would be made. The 2003 mix is also included on the Bluray. So is Parsons's original 4.0 mix, in LPCM, so you can hear what it was really meant to sound like - fully discrete. That ought to provide you the best comparison to the LP.
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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by edisonbaggins View Post
    That 2003 SACD is the Guthrie mix. It was completely remixed, from the source multi-tracks. Any similarity to the original 4.0 mix is just incidental. It stands to reason that some similar decisions would be made. The 2003 mix is also included on the Bluray. So is Parsons's original 4.0 mix, in LPCM, so you can hear what it was really meant to sound like - fully discrete. That ought to provide you the best comparison to the LP.
    I will have to defer to your expertise. As I said it was a quick comparison, and I will revisit the comparison when time permits. In the meantime I'll try and find a Bluray copy. As usual, QQ members are very knowledgeable and I am constantly learning new tidbits. I thank-you for your insightful posts.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by riknik View Post
    I will have to defer to your expertise. As I said it was a quick comparison, and I will revisit the comparison when time permits. In the meantime I'll try and find a Bluray copy. As usual, QQ members are very knowledgeable and I am constantly learning new tidbits. I thank-you for your insightful posts.
    Found One!

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Finally found some time to finish authoring the disc for round 2 of the SQ shoot-out. I've posted a link over at my youtube channel, so head on over there, and subscribe while you're at it if you haven't already, for the latest post where you can find the link for the materials.

    https://www.youtube.com/c/TheQuadcast

    Since these materials are for review purposes, I'm claiming fair use.

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    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star ArmyOfQuad's Avatar
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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Round 2 of the SQ shoot out is being withdrawn and delayed. I forgot to specify that the software decode is OD's Phoenix decoding process. However, he's also notified me that he has now developed a new process, Phoenix plus, so I'm sending files over for a new decoding. Will post a new link when that's ready.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Does anyone have the means to encode Discrete Quad source material (Open Reel or CD-4) using the original 1971 CBS SQ encoding equations (IIRC, some on this forum have access to or knowledge about software based SQ encoders)?

    This would seem to be the ultimate test of SQ (logic) decoders, comparing decoding to the original Discrete source (with "Lt" and "Rt" level matched).

    Kirk Bayne

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    Senior Member sjcorne's Avatar
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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by kfbkfb View Post
    Does anyone have the means to encode Discrete Quad source material (Open Reel or CD-4) using the original 1971 CBS SQ encoding equations (IIRC, some on this forum have access to or knowledge about software based SQ encoders)?

    This would seem to be the ultimate test of SQ (logic) decoders, comparing decoding to the original Discrete source (with "Lt" and "Rt" level matched).

    Kirk Bayne
    I found this neat java app awhile back that will encode to a few quad matrices (SQ, QS, EV4, DY) and it does seem to work, buts it's likely not quite the same as the original hardware encoders used by CBS. Some Sansui QS encoders have popped up on eBay but I've never seen an SQ one.

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by sjcorne View Post
    I found this neat java app awhile back that will encode to a few quad matrices (SQ, QS, EV4, DY) and it does seem to work, buts it's likely not quite the same as the original hardware encoders used by CBS. Some Sansui QS encoders have popped up on eBay but I've never seen an SQ one.
    Hi. sjcorne

    I had that java software, it had big potential but I found out that he based his software equation on a striped down SQ & QS matrix formula thinking that it was correct that it was from a reputable website so its full potential to decode matrix files was lost.
    I believe that he aloud his soft ware to be open source so if some one how could re right this software with the full matrix formula it could be very interesting ???
    Bill..

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    Default Re: The SQ shoot-out - The Involve SQ vinyl edition vs. the Fosgate Tate II

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbillquad View Post
    Hi. sjcorne

    I had that java software, it had big potential but I found out that he based his software equation on a striped down SQ & QS matrix formula thinking that it was correct that it was from a reputable website so its full potential to decode matrix files was lost.
    I believe that he aloud his soft ware to be open source so if some one how could re right this software with the full matrix formula it could be very interesting ???
    Bill..
    Interesting...I remember using the QS encode to make files to play through my old Acura's PLII decoder (until I found the dedicated eac3to pro logic encoder) and the effect was quite impressive. I played around with it a lot...Was always curious how the DSOTM QS LP sounded so I just ran the files from the discrete blu ray release through the program. I remember it sounded pretty good but if the matrix equation was flawed as you say I guess it wasn't entirely correct.

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