Floyd Toole on multichannel

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ssully

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I find it highly educational to search every so often for new writing from Dr. Toole. Today I learned that a 3rd edition of his book, Sound Reproduction: Loudspeakers and Rooms, is due out in August -- ordered! But I also found a thread from a year ago where he discusses his (very positive) feelings about multichannel. Note especially post #13, where he talks about the use and misuse of the center channel in multichannel music releases.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forum...an-adaptation-for-small-room-acoustics.98369/


(which is a comment thread on this article: http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation/what-do-listeners-prefer)
 
Thanks for the link.

I'm always mystified when the "I don't use a center channel on my 5.1 recordings" threads pop up from time to time.
Generally not here, mostly on AVS.
Makes no sense to me.
 
Thanks for the link.

I'm always mystified when the "I don't use a center channel on my 5.1 recordings" threads pop up from time to time.
Generally not here, mostly on AVS.
Makes no sense to me.

There are strong opinions out there on whether or not to use the center channel in a 5.1 mix.
And what to include in that channel when it is used.

Elliot Scheiner is famous for sharing that he received a very negative review from Don Henley when he put the singer's lead vocals only in the center channel of an Eagles 5.1 mix.
After that episode, Scheiner said he never put solo vocals in the center channel again in a 5.1 mix.
 
There are opinions, and there are facts. Dr. Toole has a command of the facts. Don Henley has pampered rock star insecurity.
 
There are opinions, and there are facts. Dr. Toole has a command of the facts. Don Henley has pampered rock star insecurity.

And Henley is the one who decides who gets to produce, engineer and remix his albums, not Dr. Toole... :)
 
And Henley is the one who decides who gets to produce, engineer and remix his albums, not Dr. Toole... :)

And when you have well engineered full range speakers, a phantom center should actually suffice in lieu of a mismatched [and frankly distracting] center channel.

Amen to that.
 
There are strong opinions out there on whether or not to use the center channel in a 5.1 mix.
And what to include in that channel when it is used.
Not to be snide but it ain't 5.1 without a center channel. OTOH, the real issue is what are you trying to accomplish in a mix. If the mix is derived from an acoustical event with discrete mic feeds, it is dictated by those feeds. In the vast majority of classical recordings, 5.0 seems to be the norm and the center channel is a major factor in achieving a good soundstage. My evidence comes from comparisons 3 channel and 2 channel versions of MLP and Living Stereo recordings.

OTOH, when you are literally creating a mix from multiple studio feeds, including some made at different times and/or at different venues, all bets are off and it is up to the mixing and mastering guys to create a convincing and/or intriguing sound presentation with or without a center. Giving up the center does limit the options to a degree.

Elliot Scheiner is famous for sharing that he received a very negative review from Don Henley when he put the singer's lead vocals only in the center channel of an Eagles 5.1 mix.
After that episode, Scheiner said he never put solo vocals in the center channel again in a 5.1 mix.
Even if he was working for another client who wanted it there?
 
There are strong opinions out there on whether or not to use the center channel in a 5.1 mix.
And what to include in that channel when it is used.

Elliot Scheiner is famous for sharing that he received a very negative review from Don Henley when he put the singer's lead vocals only in the center channel of an Eagles 5.1 mix.
After that episode, Scheiner said he never put solo vocals in the center channel again in a 5.1 mix.

That doesn't mean he quit using the center channel.
Seems odd that he would totally alter his technique based on one musician's opinion.

I see that K.R. already responded to the first sentence. 5.1 - CC == 4.1 :)
 
That doesn't mean he quit using the center channel.
Seems odd that he would totally alter his technique based on one musician's opinion.

I see that K.R. already responded to the first sentence. 5.1 - CC == 4.1 :)

In a lot of interviews with various remixers over the years, they were initially perplexed as to how to effectively utilize a center channel as they surmised it was created for cinema versus the replication of music. Since MOST music is stereo, where do you think the vocals emanate from*.....the phantom center, that's where.

[* In DIRECT mode with NO DSP applied].
 
And when you have well engineered full range speakers, a phantom center should actually suffice in lieu of a mismatched [and frankly distracting] center channel.

Amen to that.

Or get a center speaker that is the same model as your other 4. It took me a long time waiting for used speakers to go on sale but I finally have 5 identical speakers.
 
In a lot of interviews with various remixers over the years, they were initially perplexed as to how to effectively utilize a center channel as they surmised it was created for cinema versus the replication of music. Since MOST music is stereo, where do you think the vocals emanate from*.....the phantom center, that's where.

[* In DIRECT mode with NO DSP applied].
But if you are already recording in multichannel, you music is no longer just stereo. The producers need to learn how to use the new format and not just approach as stereo with reverb.
 
Not to be snide but it ain't 5.1 without a center channel. OTOH, the real issue is what are you trying to accomplish in a mix. If the mix is derived from an acoustical event with discrete mic feeds, it is dictated by those feeds. In the vast majority of classical recordings, 5.0 seems to be the norm and the center channel is a major factor in achieving a good soundstage. My evidence comes from comparisons 3 channel and 2 channel versions of MLP and Living Stereo recordings.

OTOH, when you are literally creating a mix from multiple studio feeds, including some made at different times and/or at different venues, all bets are off and it is up to the mixing and mastering guys to create a convincing and/or intriguing sound presentation with or without a center. Giving up the center does limit the options to a degree.

Even if he was working for another client who wanted it there?

Scheiner told the audience that he uses the center channel, but for things other than vocals, when mixing into 5.1 Surround after that fateful discussion.
 
Scheiner told the audience that he uses the center channel, but for things other than vocals, when mixing into 5.1 Surround after that fateful discussion.

I think that is an artificial and unfortunate constraint.
 
Or get a center speaker that is the same model as your other 4. It took me a long time waiting for used speakers to go on sale but I finally have 5 identical speakers.

Amen to that wavelength, unfortunately it's often impractical especially if there is a TV involved. My fronts are four way towers, so no way for me to duplicate one of them for a center speaker with the TV there. But it's good to get as close as possible. I started out with a small two-way speaker, advanced to a larger speaker, and finally got a big three way that utilizes the same drivers as the fronts. It barely fits under the TV but makes a heck of difference in the quality of 5.1 and 7.1 music presentations. With this setup, the center channel music content is now seamless.
 
I think that is an artificial and unfortunate constraint.

There certainly are a number of 5.1 Surround Sound releases that use the center channel and vocals in the center channel very effectively.

Over in the SACD Multichannel section here we recently discussed one such release "Grace" by the Broadway Inspirational Voices.
https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...oadway-Inspirational-Voices-Multichannel-SACD

After Scheiner shared his new policy with a roomful of Producers, Recording Engineers, Record Label exec and Surround Sound experts, that certainly put a damper on the practice.
 
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