The Price of Music Downloads

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humprof

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Brian, do you have any insights to share on the economics of selling DSD downloads? I keep wondering why, on so many hi-res sites, downloads are so pricey--often more expensive than physical discs.

FYI, Acoustic Sounds has expanded their selection of Multichannel DSD Downloads a bit by adding a few albums from Pentatone Classics in Multichannel DSD Download (as well as Stereo DSD Download) format.
These albums - along with the rest of the Pentatone catalog - are also available as Multichannel DSD Downloads at Pentatone Classics (.ISO Format), Primephonic and NativeDSD Music.

View attachment 30496

http://store.acousticsounds.com/ind...ryid=394&OrderBy=preownedbinmodified2_dt+desc
https://www.pentatonemusic.com/catalog
https://www.primephonic.com/store
https://pentatone.nativedsd.com/
 
Brian, do you have any insights to share on the economics of selling DSD downloads? I keep wondering why, on so many hi-res sites, downloads are so pricey--often more expensive than physical discs.

ImportCD is selling brand new Pentatone multichannel~hybrid SACDs for under $14* + s/h and for that matter BIS multichannel SACDs, as well. And the Pentatone SACDs actually come in 'genuine' Super Audio cases with high quality glossy cardboard slipcovers and copious liner notes.

And correct me if I'm wrong......most BIS and Pentatone multichannel masters are recorded PCM and then converted to DSD as opposed to DSD originated masters.

*Example: http://www.importcds.com/grand-tour-baroque-road-trip/827949066863

What makes the pot even sweeter are Pentatone's DGG/Philips QUAD hybrid SACDs from the early/late 70's which have never been commercially released in ANY QUAD format and are priced like Dutton Vocalion QUADs: http://www.importcds.com/concerto-for-orchestra-and-music-for-strings/827949024764
 
ImportCD is selling brand new Pentatone multichannel~hybrid SACDs for under $14* + s/h and for that matter BIS multichannel SACDs, as well. And the Pentatone SACDs actually come in 'genuine' Super Audio cases with high quality glossy cardboard slipcovers and copious liner notes.

And correct me if I'm wrong......most BIS and Pentatone multichannel masters are recorded PCM and then converted to DSD as opposed to DSD originated masters.

*Example: http://www.importcds.com/grand-tour-baroque-road-trip/827949066863

What makes the pot even sweeter are Pentatone's DGG/Philips QUAD hybrid SACDs from the early/late 70's which have never been commercially released in ANY QUAD format and are priced like Dutton Vocalion QUADs: http://www.importcds.com/concerto-for-orchestra-and-music-for-strings/827949024764

Pentatone almost always records in DSD. BIS records in PCM, excluding a few early DSD recordings sponsored by Sony. The sound quality in both is excellent, although I've found BIS tends to have more winners in terms of performance and a much more adventurous catalog.
 
Exactly what I'm talking about. (Presto Classical often has prices even better than ImportCDs. And BIS, meanwhile, sells multichannel FLACs at very reasonable prices at eClassical.com.) So why do most online retailers charge such high prices for DSD downloads? Are their hands forced by the labels? That's what I'm trying to figure out...

ImportCD is selling brand new Pentatone multichannel~hybrid SACDs for under $14* + s/h and for that matter BIS multichannel SACDs, as well. And the Pentatone SACDs actually come in 'genuine' Super Audio cases with high quality glossy cardboard slipcovers and copious liner notes.

And correct me if I'm wrong......most BIS and Pentatone multichannel masters are recorded PCM and then converted to DSD as opposed to DSD originated masters.

*Example: http://www.importcds.com/grand-tour-baroque-road-trip/827949066863

What makes the pot even sweeter are Pentatone's DGG/Philips QUAD hybrid SACDs from the early/late 70's which have never been commercially released in ANY QUAD format and are priced like Dutton Vocalion QUADs: http://www.importcds.com/concerto-for-orchestra-and-music-for-strings/827949024764
 
Pentatone almost always records in DSD. BIS records in PCM, excluding a few early DSD recordings sponsored by Sony. The sound quality in both is excellent, although I've found BIS tends to have more winners in terms of performance and a much more adventurous catalog.

Unless things have changed, ubertrout, I was always under the impression that DSD recording was very limited as the ability to do overdubs and extensive editing in the pure DSD domain was nigh impossible. I know LSO LIVE is pure DSD BUT IT'S RECORDED LIVE SO THERE IS LITTLE ROOM FOR ERROR [OR OVERDUBS OR EXTENSIVE EDITING]. Are you sure Pentatone recordings are PURE DSD?

And I was aware that some early BIS recordings were DSD but since abandoned for PCM since I can almost assure you editing/overdub concerns were a deciding factor. And yes, BIS recordings are pretty amazing [as are those from Challenge Records].
 
Unless things have changed, ubertrout, I was always under the impression that DSD recording was very limited as the ability to do overdubs and extensive editing in the pure DSD domain was nigh impossible. I know LSO LIVE is pure DSD BUT IT'S RECORDED LIVE SO THERE IS LITTLE ROOM FOR ERROR [OR OVERDUBS OR EXTENSIVE EDITING]. Are you sure Pentatone recordings are PURE DSD?

And I was aware that some early BIS recordings were DSD but since abandoned for PCM since I can almost assure you editing/overdub concerns were a deciding factor. And yes, BIS recordings are pretty amazing [as are those from Challenge Records].

DSD recording has limited editing options compared to DSD, but as I understand it nothing that would be an issue anymore for classical recordings, where there's no real effects processing. A lot of classical labels record to it: https://www.nativedsd.com/
 
Exactly what I'm talking about. (Presto Classical often has prices even better than ImportCDs. And BIS, meanwhile, sells multichannel FLACs at very reasonable prices at eClassical.com.) So why do most online retailers charge such high prices for DSD downloads? Are their hands forced by the labels? That's what I'm trying to figure out...

I think eClassical is really wonderful model for a download platform, and the $25 per album model of other sites, $20 when on sale, is shooting themselves in the foot. In an era where the physical market is shrinking, attempting to charge higher prices for downloads (especially when you're not bundling several listening options together like hybrid SACD does) is a bizarre retread of exactly the same mistake the major labels made 10-15 years ago.

Meanwhile, eClassical's current deal is BIS's new release of Mozart Serenades and Divertimenti, including the famous Eine Kleine Nachtmusik, for under $10, including 24/96 stereo and 5.0 surround in the bundle: http://www.eclassical.com/mozart-serenades-divertimenti.html
 
Unless things have changed, ubertrout, I was always under the impression that DSD recording was very limited as the ability to do overdubs and extensive editing in the pure DSD domain was nigh impossible. I know LSO LIVE is pure DSD BUT IT'S RECORDED LIVE SO THERE IS LITTLE ROOM FOR ERROR [OR OVERDUBS OR EXTENSIVE EDITING]. Are you sure Pentatone recordings are PURE DSD?

And I was aware that some early BIS recordings were DSD but since abandoned for PCM since I can almost assure you editing/overdub concerns were a deciding factor. And yes, BIS recordings are pretty amazing [as are those from Challenge Records].

It depends on how the recording was made and the workstation used.

In some cases, the recording is mixed through an Analog console and then saved to DSD, with no PCM processing used.
That is the case with many of the recordings from Blue Coast Music, Just Listen and Telarc, among others.

With recordings made on the Sony Sonoma workstation, there is no PCM editing available.
The Sonoma includes DSD editing capabilities using an 8x DSD format called DSD-Wide.

On the Merging Technologies Pyramix workstation, it uses the Philips-developed DXD format which is very high bit rate PCM (352.8 kHz) for editing and balancing.

So you do have to check the credits to see what the story is.

That being said, while a few of the very early BIS recordings were DSD.
The more recent ones are PCM based.
 
Brian, do you have any insights to share on the economics of selling DSD downloads? I keep wondering why, on so many hi-res sites, downloads are so pricey--often more expensive than physical discs.

If you talk with some of the record labels, especially the Classical Music labels, they will tell you they are losing their shirt financially on optical discs. Not enough margin there to cover their costs, much less make a profit.
And that was the case even before the sales of optical discs began their drop off in recent years as the Internet became more of a factor and many now see music as something that is Free, something you don't pay for.

The real cost of recording and releasing an album to cover costs is closer to the $25 to $35 range we see reissues and downloads selling for today.

For listeners who still buy music, the quality of the recording is often the main consideration.
And that's why we see Vinyl LPs going for $50 and up - and Analog Open Reel tapes going for $450 each and up.

As one seller once famously said at a music show, about disc pricing, "sometimes you want a burger and sometimes you want steak".
And there is pricing that goes along with that. :)
 
Speaking of the price of Classical Music Downloads, check this article from Stereophile Magazine.
Some interesting price comparisons.

"A comparison of various sites on multiple levels suggests that music lovers should be aware of several things. The first is that some classical labels have reserved their highest-quality downloads for their own sites. Channel Classics, for example, has given Primephonic hi-rez PCM downloads of its titles, but reserves native DSD downloads for its own site. Many other labels either do the same, or pick and choose which sites can offer some or all of their titles in which format(s).

The second factor to consider is differences in pricing. Take, for example, a highly feted recording that was Stereophile's "Recording of the Month" for July 2015, Channel Classics SACD of period instrument violinist Rachel Podger and Brecon Baroque performing Antonio Vivaldi's L'Estro Armonico on two discs. Not only will you have difficulty finding it on Primephonic—it does not come up under its title, and its cover doesn't appear among the 16 Vivaldi titles displayed at the bottom of the search page—but when you do find it eventually by searching under "Rachel Podger," you'll discover that Primephonic's 24/192 FLAC download costs $36.99. If you go to Native DSD, you'll find the download in its native DSD format—it was not recorded in PCM—for $24.99! Note that while AcousticSounds.com offers DSD as well as FLAC and Apple Lossless downloads, it does not carry this title.

Here's another example: Pentatone's recent SACD of Dvorak's Symphony 6 and Two Slavonic Dances with the Houston Symphony under Andrés Orozco-Estrada. It costs $17.98 for a 24/96 download on HDTracks, and $18.99 for 24/96 on both Primephonic and ClassicsOnline. ClassicsOnline also allows you to stream the title to your heart's content in 24/96 for $14.99/month or $149.99/year. Primephonic offers the most format and resolution download options of this title, which include the 24/96 surround download for $19.99, DSD stereo for $24.99, and DSD surround for $24.99. NativeDSD, however, offers the DSD stereo download for $22.87, DSD surround for $23.78, and both together for $25.61.

Now compare this pricing to what some would call the old-fashioned option, purchase of the physical SACD. Were you to opt to buy the SACD through amazon.com, you'd pay $18.99 plus, if you don't know how to get around it, postage. (I tried to find the price of the SACD on HDTracks, but its front-page link for "LPs, Blu Rays, and SACDs" was not working.) What this means is that if you have room for the SACD on your shelf, buying the physical disc gives you the most playback options for the lowest price, at least in this case."

https://www.stereophile.com/content/primephonics-hi-rez-classical-downloads
 
Interesting. So physical discs have effectively turned into "loss leaders." Well, I wouldn't want to see any of these guys lose their shirts--I want them to keep issuing new recordings!--so I may occasionally buy downloads and/or or discs directly from the labels. But as long as SACDs are selling for $12-$18 at ImportCDs and Presto, it's hard to pass them up...

If you talk with some of the record labels, especially the Classical Music labels, they will tell you they are losing their shirt financially on optical discs. Not enough margin there to cover their costs, much less make a profit.
And that was the case even before the sales of optical discs began their drop off in recent years as the Internet became more of a factor and many now see music as something that is Free, something you don't pay for.

The real cost of recording and releasing an album to cover costs is closer to the $25 to $35 range we see reissues and downloads selling for today.

[snip]
 
I'm sure we're not the only ones to have noticed this sort of thing--to our bewilderment and frustration--while shopping around online. Buyer beware, of course. Still, you'd think that if the labels were really serious about promoting downloads, they'd settle on an approach that was a bit more consumer-friendly.

Speaking of the price of Classical Music Downloads, check this article from Stereophile Magazine.
Some interesting price comparisons.



https://www.stereophile.com/content/primephonics-hi-rez-classical-downloads
 
I'm sure we're not the only ones to have noticed this sort of thing--to our bewilderment and frustration--while shopping around online. Buyer beware, of course. Still, you'd think that if the labels were really serious about promoting downloads, they'd settle on an approach that was a bit more consumer-friendly.

The pricing of downloads is not just up to the labels. It's also up to the download sites.
And each approaches it in their own way.

That explains why some sites sell stereo downloads only while a few sell stereo and multichannel downloads.
Up to each site to decide.
 
Right. And undoubtedly the sites have at least some discretion over what they choose to sell. But the bit from the Stereophile piece that really hit home was this:

ome classical labels have reserved their highest-quality downloads for their own sites. Channel Classics, for example, has given Primephonic hi-rez PCM downloads of its titles, but reserves native DSD downloads for its own site. Many other labels either do the same, or pick and choose which sites can offer some or all of their titles in which format(s).


Makes sense that the labels would hold back the really good stuff and keep it to themselves: lure in customers with exclusive premium content. But if, as a general rule, some online retailers get some titles and not others, as well as some formats and not others, then that's not a happy situation for buyers.

I do like the eClassical--and the Bandcamp--model (although Bandcamp isn't really set up for multichannel yet): pay one price for the highest resolution/format you want, then get access to that format and all the ones below it. And, in Bandcamp's case, stream your music collection from its site for free when you're on the go...

Edit: anyway--and I've forgotten to say this before now--I really appreciate the insights you've offered. And the conversation!

The pricing of downloads is not just up to the labels. It's also up to the download sites.
And each approaches it in their own way.

That explains why some sites sell stereo downloads only while a few sell stereo and multichannel downloads.
Up to each site to decide.
 
I do like the eClassical--and the Bandcamp--model (although Bandcamp isn't really set up for multichannel yet): pay one price for the highest resolution/format you want, then get access to that format and all the ones below it.

That's not unique to those sites.

NativeDSD also offers that model - when you buy the Quad DSD (DSD256) or Double DSD (DSD128) edition of an album, you can download the lower DSD Bit Rates (DSD64, DSD128) at no added cost.
Another difference between that site and most of the others where each bit rate is another purchase.

Ditto for combination pricing with Stereo and Multichannel Downloads.

NativeDSD Music has a "ST+MCH" option which gives you the Stereo and Multichannel editions of an album for a few dollars more than one or the other.
Along with all of the lower bit rate Stereo and Multichannel files.

Acoustic Sounds offers this on some album downloads. For example, the Janet Feder DSD Downloads at Acoustic Sounds are only available with both Stereo & Multichannel DSD for $29.
You can't buy one or the other alone.

A potential solution to Mutichannel downloads where most listeners want the Stereo edition but the Multichannel edition often doesn't sell enough on its own to be viable.
 
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