Thanks Thanks:  42
Likes Likes:  126
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 94

Thread: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

  1. #1
    Member Eclectic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    West San Jose
    Posts
    119
    Points
    3,246
    Level
    35
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 104
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoura View Post
    Sony Japan recently purchased Merging Technologies Horus/Pyramix systems, capable of Stereo and Surround Sound recording and transfers up to DSD256, for several of their studios.
    So it is likely that we will be seeing more DSD128 and DSD256 recordings and transfers from Sony Japan in the future.
    Oh goody. Only kidding. I really wish DSD would just go away. The minor resurgence of the SACD format, in particular, is just annoying. Bits are bits. LPCM is the de facto standard for encoding audio, for good technical reasons. Blu-ray is the de facto standard for prerecorded high bandwidth video and audio (though it's far from perfect, and physical media are on their way out).

    Curmudgeonly yours,

    Eclectic

  2. Thanks ssully thanked for this post
    Likes kap'n krunch, MarkN, Halloway, ssully liked this post
  3. #2
    Friendly Moderator bmoura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    Posts
    8,082
    Points
    124,421
    Level
    100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 40.0%
    Achievements:
    VeteranOverdriveSocial50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic View Post
    Oh goody. Only kidding. I really wish DSD would just go away. The minor resurgence of the SACD format, in particular, is just annoying. Bits are bits. LPCM is the de facto standard for encoding audio, for good technical reasons. Blu-ray is the de facto standard for prerecorded high bandwidth video and audio (though it's far from perfect, and physical media are on their way out).

    Curmudgeonly yours,

    Eclectic
    Amusing indeed.
    The good news is that DSD is alive and well. And unlikely to "go away".

  4. #3
    500 Club - QQ All Star
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    500
    Points
    8,413
    Level
    61
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 37
    Overall activity: 42.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    I wish DSD would go away too!

    No one ever complained about the fidelity of 24/96 PCM. Probably because it is exactly the same level of insane fidelity and headroom.

    Formats aren't analogous to mastering quality. There are mastering jobs that suck and those that don't. There are mixes that suck or not. There are mixes that suck that are saved by someone in mastering. There are great mixes ruined in mastering by someone that sucks. But these format containers (DSD or PCM) carry the same weight if someone wants to put a well done master into them. Or a sucky one.

    Making a different digital "language" that works just as well as the original one and making disc drives that spin backwards was Sony trying to be greedy with proprietary bs.

    The comparisons made in the brochure were always against CD (16/44.1 low res PCM), not full res PCM. Well, I like oranges better than apples too!

  5. Likes MarkN, Robert van Diggele, Halloway liked this post
  6. #4
    Member Eclectic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    West San Jose
    Posts
    119
    Points
    3,246
    Level
    35
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 104
    Overall activity: 0%
    Achievements:
    1000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoura View Post
    Amusing indeed.
    The good news is that DSD is alive and well. And unlikely to "go away".
    Alive, yes; well, no. It's a niche encoding that owns a small share of a niche market (audiophile and multichannel audio recordings). It is undergoing a minor resurgence. But it's essentially unused on mainstream physical media (DVD, Blu-ray, CD), streaming, and downloads. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in five years' time, it were as dead as the DVD-A format is today. On the other hand, I never would have predicted the vinyl resurgence (and I think it's ridiculous too) so who knows? Chacun à son goût, I guess.

    P.S. To those of you who don't know me IRL, I'm not really a meanie, even if I may seem like one on this thread.

  7. Likes JanBakker, elroy liked this post
  8. #5
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    NYC/CT
    Posts
    1,307
    Points
    14,527
    Level
    78
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 323
    Overall activity: 27.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic View Post
    Alive, yes; well, no. It's a niche encoding that owns a small share of a niche market (audiophile and multichannel audio recordings). It is undergoing a minor resurgence. But it's essentially unused on mainstream physical media (DVD, Blu-ray, CD), streaming, and downloads. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in five years' time, it were as dead as the DVD-A format is today.
    Technical issues and preferences aside, a significant difference between the two is the large number of classical recordings in DSD which still continue to increase with new releases.
    Kal Rubinson
    "Music in the Round"
    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

  9. Thanks dr. simple, ar surround thanked for this post
  10. #6
    700 Club - QQ All Star Fourplay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Denver
    Posts
    789
    Points
    14,333
    Level
    77
    Level completed: 71%, Points required for next Level: 117
    Overall activity: 13.0%
    Achievements:
    Tagger First ClassVeteranSocial10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Any lossless format that can and does deliver surround content to my ears through my Oppo is welcome in my house!
    Head for the roundhouse...
    They'll never corner you there!

  11. #7
    Senior Member par4ken's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    NW Ontario
    Posts
    278
    Points
    7,188
    Level
    56
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 162
    Overall activity: 5.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Fourplay View Post
    Any lossless format that can and does deliver surround content to my ears through my Oppo is welcome in my house!
    I agree 100%, just as in the Quad days each system had it strengths and weaknesses, it would be hard to pick one over the other. I currently favour Blu-ray just because the disc can hold so much! One advantage of SACD however is that the discs are usually hybrid, containing a CD layer for compatibility. An awful lot of discs were still being released by the Japanese while the format was almost dead elsewhere, so a lot of titles to choose from both stereo and surround. I don't know if DSD really has any sonic advantage over PCM, both sound good to me.

  12. Likes dr. simple, Fourplay, holland123 liked this post
  13. #8
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star dr. simple's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,029
    Points
    17,550
    Level
    84
    Level completed: 40%, Points required for next Level: 300
    Overall activity: 3.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by par4ken View Post
    I agree 100%, just as in the Quad days each system had it strengths and weaknesses, it would be hard to pick one over the other. I currently favour Blu-ray just because the disc can hold so much! One advantage of SACD however is that the discs are usually hybrid, containing a CD layer for compatibility. An awful lot of discs were still being released by the Japanese while the format was almost dead elsewhere, so a lot of titles to choose from both stereo and surround. I don't know if DSD really has any sonic advantage over PCM, both sound good to me.
    Chalk up another "agree 100%". I'm thrilled that we have so many great 5.1 and quad mixes, regardless of format.
    "You gotta always remember, the name of the game is 'What does it sound like?' That's always the end result - I don't care if you got 90 tracks. What does it sound like, baby?" - Ray Charles

  14. Likes 360 SOUND, sbrom, Fourplay, infaze, holland123 liked this post
  15. #9
    Malnarnian edisonbaggins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    East Bay, CA
    Posts
    3,173
    Points
    14,864
    Level
    79
    Level completed: 3%, Points required for next Level: 486
    Overall activity: 42.0%
    Achievements:
    OverdriveSocialTagger Second Class10000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Some of my very favorite recordings are on SACD. Not sure I'll ever get in to the DSD download thing.
    Maybe if more popular multichannel titles are released and the price is right.

    Do I wish all of my favorite multichannel were on bluray? Sure. I'm just grateful for the music I get to enjoy in this short life though.
    Multichannel FLAC downloads and more:
    https://surroundmusic.one
    hi-res 2.0, 4.0, 4.1 & 5.1 available!

  16. Likes sbrom, GOS, dr. simple, holland123 liked this post
  17. #10
    500 Club - QQ All Star
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    500
    Points
    8,413
    Level
    61
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 37
    Overall activity: 42.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    The tipping point is the DA converters. Save very high end amps and speakers, the DAC is the big ticket item and the one directly responsible for the fidelity of the whole system. (Specifically the analog circuitry and output stage in the DAC) If you want an audiophile system and need at least 6 channels for surround, a higher end DAC with at least 6 outputs starts around $1000. A higher end consumer surround receiver with comparable quality DACs is at least $1200.

    So now because Sony decided to make a proprietary system that literally uses a different language for the digital encoding, if I want to listen to DSD natively on the same quality DAC, I have to start over as it were an invest another $1000. Now because DSD to PCM conversion is still in the realm of virtually lossless HD quality (and you get better results converting and playing on high end PCM converters than you would playing natively on consumer grade DSD converters) it makes more sense to invest in PCM DACs and convert any DSD program.

    None of this is any good! The choice is to either duplicate expensive equipment for no good reason or have to convert music I purchased to a more standard format. This kind of thing needs to stop.

    On the one hand, ANY surround releases in ANY format are to be celebrated and encouraged! But this is just idiotic and greedy and puts quality gear even more out of reach for people in the long run. (Like deciding to compromise and paying $2000 for a surround receiver with both types of DAC for example. Except each of them are now half of what you could have had if you invested in only one.) That's where the resistance and annoyance comes from. Reinventing the very same quality wheel for absolutely no reason. It makes me sad every time I see a desirable release in only DSD. The release still deserves celebration obviously but it's hard to support this.

    Then have fun trying to explain this to the average listener! I wonder how many people have a surround receiver with standard PCM converters that listen to their SACDs being format converted on the fly as they listen? You thought you were listening to something higher quality but you're actually getting a lesser experience. Heck, just trying to explain mastering to the average listener is impossible. Even some musicians. They'll still insist their crushed (slammed loud and eq hyped bright) CD's sound better because no one ever told them how to run their volume control. You can even take the same file (right in front of them) and slam one copy through a limiter to raise it a couple db louder (again right in front of them) and now they insist whatever you did made the louder one unique and better sounding. Pull the fader down to match the volumes and make them A/B again to drive that point home and now you get the 12 volt stare. Frustrating stuff when we're literally living in the golden age of audio where everything should be happiness and light.

  18. Thanks quicksrt, infaze, M-D-Z thanked for this post
  19. #11
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star 4-earredwonder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3,283
    Points
    11,440
    Level
    70
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 210
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    VeteranOverdrive10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    I have asserted on MANY occasions that we live in a PCM world. 99.9% of all physical media is PCM [and yes, in all fairness, analogue recording has made a resurgence as a darling of the pop/rock community]. Hollywood and cable TV/Networks all record PCM for their fare.

    There has been so much red ink spilled about the pros and cons for both formats [PCM vs. DSD] that no wonder 99.99% of all potential listeners have NO idea which end is up.

    As we, the listener, have NO choice when purchasing physical hi res discs but do have the luxury of selecting PCM/DSD when downloading music, it all comes down to the music itself.

    I agree with a lot of QQ posters that the DSD fare is very selective [mostly classical, smallish esoteric labels releasing jazz, occasional pop mostly from 'non~mainstream' artists]. It's usually very audiophile in nature which I suppose is its main selling point, usually well performed and might appeal to listeners with 'esoteric' tastes in music.

    But, IMO, DSD will always remain a VERY niche format, much like surround and whether to ponder the merits of PCM/DSD at this juncture in time is really a very moot point.

    And to throw another 'confusing' wrench in the audio machine......Meridian's MQA is currently being embraced by both software and hardware manufacturers* and like Dolby of olde will require encode/decode software for proper playback....and it exists strictly in the PCM domain.

    *Meridian, NAD, CARY audio, Mytek, etc.

    MQA explained: http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinio...lained-2932975

  20. Thanks M-D-Z thanked for this post
    Likes M-D-Z liked this post
  21. #12
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star quicksrt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Surf City, CA
    Posts
    1,168
    Points
    15,636
    Level
    80
    Level completed: 58%, Points required for next Level: 214
    Overall activity: 20.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Let's face it, DSD and SACD were both invented just so Sony could have their very own format like Beta video. Except this would be impossible to crack (so they thought).

    It was never about a better sounding or more convent or less costly format.

    And yes by golly, they got their very own Beta of the digital formats.... did they not.

    I've always gotten better and more transparent sounding playback from DVD-A at 24/96 than I have with DSD. I guess I haven't spent enough cash to get it right yet.

  22. Thanks ssully thanked for this post
    Likes Eclectic, holland123 liked this post
  23. #13
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star 4-earredwonder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3,283
    Points
    11,440
    Level
    70
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 210
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    VeteranOverdrive10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by quicksrt View Post
    Let's face it, DSD and SACD were both invented just so Sony could have their very own format like Beta video. Except this would be impossible to crack (so they thought).

    It was never about a better sounding or more convent or less costly format.

    And yes by golly, they got their very own Beta of the digital formats.... did they not.

    I've always gotten better and more transparent sounding playback from DVD-A at 24/96 than I have with DSD. I guess I haven't spent enough cash to get it right yet.
    I recall a few years ago when James Guthrie 'premiered' his SACD 5.1 remix of Wish You Were Here, a $43K specially modified Playback Design SACD player with two outboard Playback Design DAC units was employed for the demonstration. Kal Rubinson [Stereophile Magazine] inquired whether the unit was available for a review in his Music In The Round column and was told NO.....it was a one off for the PF Demo.

    What kind of gelt does one have to spend for Audiophile nirvana because, IMO, had that unit been available for sale, I would've beg, borrowed and stealed to have that state of the art unit in my main system.

    Unfortunately, MOST QQers have Universal Players and as good as they are [and IMO, they ARE with limits], we'll never achieve perfection in both PCM/DSD playback .... but then again, The $43K Playback Design apparatus is NOT capable of playing DVD/DVD~A/BD~A/V which most of our Universal Players can and quite well at that and for $250, The new SONY X~800 UHD 4K player will play them ALL [including 4K] for probably WAY LESS than the cost of a single cable connecting the Playback Design unit to its outboard DACs!!!!!!!!

    What Price GLORY? Don't ASK!

  24. Likes M-D-Z liked this post
  25. #14
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    NYC/CT
    Posts
    1,307
    Points
    14,527
    Level
    78
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 323
    Overall activity: 27.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    I recall a few years ago when James Guthrie 'premiered' his SACD 5.1 remix of Wish You Were Here, a $43K specially modified Playback Design SACD player with two outboard Playback Design DAC units was employed for the demonstration. Kal Rubinson [Stereophile Magazine] inquired whether the unit was available for a review in his Music In The Round column and was told NO.....it was a one off for the PF Demo.
    Ouch! I remember that. However, just recently, I was able to enjoy a PD multichannel system with their server, USB interface and a trio of DACs. https://www.stereophile.com/content/...gns-audioquest

    Who needs discs?
    Kal Rubinson
    "Music in the Round"
    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

  26. Likes Robert van Diggele, M-D-Z liked this post
  27. #15
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star 4-earredwonder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3,283
    Points
    11,440
    Level
    70
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 210
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    VeteranOverdrive10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Ouch! I remember that. However, just recently, I was able to enjoy a PD multichannel system with their server, USB interface and a trio of DACs. https://www.stereophile.com/content/...gns-audioquest

    Who needs discs?
    DISC Tweakers, like ME....that's WHO!

    BTW, Kal, what's you initial impression of the new OPPO 205 Universal player?

  28. #16
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    NYC/CT
    Posts
    1,307
    Points
    14,527
    Level
    78
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 323
    Overall activity: 27.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    DISC Tweakers, like ME....that's WHO!

    BTW, Kal, what's you initial impression of the new OPPO 205 Universal player?
    In press.
    Kal Rubinson
    "Music in the Round"
    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

  29. #17
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star 4-earredwonder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3,283
    Points
    11,440
    Level
    70
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 210
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    VeteranOverdrive10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    In press.
    Can't wait. Many thanks!

  30. #18
    400 Club - QQ All Star
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    450
    Points
    7,686
    Level
    58
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 64
    Overall activity: 13.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    My collection is mostly SACD, and I listen to DSD downloads as well...and I still kind of agree. But I agree in a retrospective sense, as in "I wish Sony/Philips and the DVD Consortium had realized that there was no point having a format war when there's barely a market for an audiophile format period." Nowadays playing DSD is just part of the audio game, and most equipment plays all formats.

    Although we tend to think of SACD and DSD as being driven by audiophile considerations, it really had much more with the term of a patent - 20 years. The patents on CDs had nourished Sony and Philips for 20 years, but were about to come to an end (see here, along with hilariously dated comments: https://www.myce.com/news/Philips-ha...xpiry___-1122/). So Sony and Philips developed a new more advanced system for digital audio, to be protected by patent another 20 years. Sony had already started archiving its catalog using DSD (so the choice of DSD wasn't totally arbitrary and has audio benefits), so they settled on DSD as the format of choice, with multichannel added at the insistence of Philips. The format was heavily copy protected as well, being designed to take full advantage of laws recently passed around the world making it illegal to bypass copy protection, even if the copying would otherwise be allowed, and a crime to distribute devices to defeat copy protection. I had a conversation with a lawyer who helped develop SACD for Sony who was a bit surprised I listened to them - he thought it was just a way to leverage the new laws.

    Of course the other members of the DVD Consortium had their own ideas, and the DVD-Audio format hewed much closer to the DVD-Video format and its patents. With the benefit of hindsight, it would have been better if the industry of the late 1990s had seen the storm that was coming and recognized that the mass market wouldn't be all that interested in the competing formats they had devised, but hindsight is exactly that. I think if they had known they would never have bothered with SACD/DSD and just focused on the DVD-Audio standard, likely in hybridized form. Whether the market was interested in one audiophile format in the late 90s is open to debate, of course.

  31. Thanks timothyemerson, M-D-Z thanked for this post
    Likes 360 SOUND, humprof, M-D-Z liked this post
  32. #19
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star 4-earredwonder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    3,283
    Points
    11,440
    Level
    70
    Level completed: 48%, Points required for next Level: 210
    Overall activity: 79.0%
    Achievements:
    VeteranOverdrive10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by ubertrout View Post
    My collection is mostly SACD, and I listen to DSD downloads as well...and I still kind of agree. But I agree in a retrospective sense, as in "I wish Sony/Philips and the DVD Consortium had realized that there was no point having a format war when there's barely a market for an audiophile format period." Nowadays playing DSD is just part of the audio game, and most equipment plays all formats.

    Although we tend to think of SACD and DSD as being driven by audiophile considerations, it really had much more with the term of a patent - 20 years. The patents on CDs had nourished Sony and Philips for 20 years, but were about to come to an end (see here, along with hilariously dated comments: https://www.myce.com/news/Philips-ha...xpiry___-1122/). So Sony and Philips developed a new more advanced system for digital audio, to be protected by patent another 20 years. Sony had already started archiving its catalog using DSD (so the choice of DSD wasn't totally arbitrary and has audio benefits), so they settled on DSD as the format of choice, with multichannel added at the insistence of Philips. The format was heavily copy protected as well, being designed to take full advantage of laws recently passed around the world making it illegal to bypass copy protection, even if the copying would otherwise be allowed, and a crime to distribute devices to defeat copy protection. I had a conversation with a lawyer who helped develop SACD for Sony who was a bit surprised I listened to them - he thought it was just a way to leverage the new laws.

    Of course the other members of the DVD Consortium had their own ideas, and the DVD-Audio format hewed much closer to the DVD-Video format and its patents. With the benefit of hindsight, it would have been better if the industry of the late 1990s had seen the storm that was coming and recognized that the mass market wouldn't be all that interested in the competing formats they had devised, but hindsight is exactly that. I think if they had known they would never have bothered with SACD/DSD and just focused on the DVD-Audio standard, likely in hybridized form. Whether the market was interested in one audiophile format in the late 90s is open to debate, of course.
    Great points, ubertrout.

    But unfortunately, one never fully learns from the past that format wars only tend to obfuscate and in the end, chaos ensues.

    That the video consortium FINALLY settled on BD~V after the silly HD~DVD fiasco should be a clear indication that a not so tech savvy public tends to shy away from hardware/software competitions and settles on low fi gizmos unless it's a bigger and better flatscreen TV, especially at outrageously 'cheap' prices with preposterous low fi soundbars as their audio source promising them 5.1 [or better] sonics from this simplistic source.

    I do believe if the DVD~Audio consortium, wisely following the multi billion dollar success of DVD had somehow made it hybrid for music replication they could've singlehandedly triumphed over Sony/Philips SACD entry. But in hindsight, as we ALL know so well, the lack of A~list titles from both factions doomed both formats from the get go....and if one looks over the dismal list of UHD 4K titles being offered for sale [and MOST are 2K up conversions], it seems history IS repeating itself...and with NO 3D....another nail in its coffin!

    And IF ONLY the powers that be put 'knowledgeable' Execs in charge of these launches [DVD~A/SACD and BD~A] who truly loved music and understood the machinations of the music industry inside/out, I know the outcome would've be different. Never hire a boy to do a MAN's JOB!

  33. Likes M-D-Z liked this post
  34. #20
    1K Club - QQ Shooting Star
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    NYC/CT
    Posts
    1,307
    Points
    14,527
    Level
    78
    Level completed: 20%, Points required for next Level: 323
    Overall activity: 27.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Both of the previous posts make valid points but do not clearly acknowledge that, in this real world, all such decisions are based on marketing and profit expectations and will never give more than lip-service to any audiophile considerations. To expect otherwise is unreasonable. What we do (speaking of our little niche of consumers, dealers and manufacturers) is to respond to those decisions by adapting what comes to market and optimizing it for our own goals. Our options are limited by those who do not share our goals.
    Kal Rubinson
    "Music in the Round"
    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

  35. Thanks dr. simple, M-D-Z thanked for this post
    Likes GOS, dr. simple, M-D-Z liked this post
  36. #21
    400 Club - QQ All Star
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    450
    Points
    7,686
    Level
    58
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 64
    Overall activity: 13.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Both of the previous posts make valid points but do not clearly acknowledge that, in this real world, all such decisions are based on marketing and profit expectations and will never give more than lip-service to any audiophile considerations. To expect otherwise is unreasonable. What we do (speaking of our little niche of consumers, dealers and manufacturers) is to respond to those decisions by adapting what comes to market and optimizing it for our own goals. Our options are limited by those who do not share our goals.
    Well, Sony/Philips wanted a next-gen audio format, and the consumer hook was that it was higher-resolution and multichannel. So the audio quality element was a necessary part of the equation, and the central problem they discovered is that there just aren't enough people who care. Without our goals the whole project would have been even more stillborn than it was. My point, though, is simply that having a format war without much of a market meant that to the extent any chance of success of a next-gen audio format existed, consumer confusion snuffed it out.

  37. #22
    Malnarnian edisonbaggins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    East Bay, CA
    Posts
    3,173
    Points
    14,864
    Level
    79
    Level completed: 3%, Points required for next Level: 486
    Overall activity: 42.0%
    Achievements:
    OverdriveSocialTagger Second Class10000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    One thing I find intriguing about this discussion is the notion that you have to drop a billion dollars on a system to play SACD or DSD properly.
    I have a very modest system and SACD and DSD sound great, regardless of what my player or receiver are actually doing.
    Multichannel FLAC downloads and more:
    https://surroundmusic.one
    hi-res 2.0, 4.0, 4.1 & 5.1 available!

  38. Thanks ssully thanked for this post
    Likes Werno, Robert van Diggele, ssully, M-D-Z liked this post
  39. #23
    500 Club - QQ All Star
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    500
    Points
    8,413
    Level
    61
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 37
    Overall activity: 42.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    You can choose to decide that a more modest system still sounds very good and not invest more for perfection. Such decisions are what we do.
    If for example, your speakers are the more limiting factor of your system, you might never be able to monitor the nuance between reasonably close to the signal in the wire vs. dead on accurate. The consumer DVD player with OK-ish PCM converters that is format converting from DSD to PCM (at 48k) will sound every bit as good through said speakers as lossless 24/96 native PCM through Apogee or Prism converters.* Get better speakers and then you hear what you were missing. Just like the Youtube video and the bluray video look pretty much the same on a phone screen.

    For one thing there are FAR more choices for PCM converters on the market than DSD! DSD gives you consumer fair in various surround receivers and then goes straight to the very top end with Prism with no in-between. The most bang for the buck is higher end PCM converters and then format convert any DSD to 24/88.2 PCM. You'll hear more of the original fidelity of what's in the wire than with cheaper native DSD converters.

    If just whatever sound trickles out of whatever device is just fine... well your probably not on this forum! If you're chasing after what the band/engineer tried to deliver at the highest levels possible (still within reason I mean), investing in PCM is still the thing to do. Then convert any DSD. The $1000 mark for multiple channels of PCM converters is the high water mark. Going boutique after that starts chasing single percentages (and you better have that room treated and dialed in physically or such a thing is a moot point!)

    * OK, there are so many variables and different levels of products that this could swing the other way. Hopefully this example still makes the point.

    PS. I'm speaking in generalities here. I don't know exactly what kind of excellent system you have Edisonbaggins so I'll assume the best. You just might want to try the experiment of converting your DSD program to 24/88.2k PCM and have a little shootout though. You might just end up suddenly upgrading a healthy chunk of your collection!

  40. Likes M-D-Z liked this post
  41. #24
    Malnarnian edisonbaggins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    East Bay, CA
    Posts
    3,173
    Points
    14,864
    Level
    79
    Level completed: 3%, Points required for next Level: 486
    Overall activity: 42.0%
    Achievements:
    OverdriveSocialTagger Second Class10000 Experience Points1 year registered
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Oh Lordy. I try to keep my personal happiness in mind, in relation to this hobby of ours.
    My system sounds great, and if other's comments on polls are good data, I'm hearing what others are hearing reasonably enough.

    Sure, there are upgrades in my future, but that is because I want to hear Atmos and Auro 3D, not because I'm concerned over fidelity or resolution.

    I honestly get the same enjoyment out of a DTS-CD as I do a 192k bluray. IMO, it's mostly the mix and mastering that count.

    It may very well be that I'm missing something, vis a vis fidelity or resolution, but life is short and happiness counts.
    Besides, I'm the sole bread winner for my growing family and I already push the limits on budget.
    Multichannel FLAC downloads and more:
    https://surroundmusic.one
    hi-res 2.0, 4.0, 4.1 & 5.1 available!

  42. Thanks Eclectic, ssully, M-D-Z thanked for this post
    Likes GOS, humprof, Eclectic, ssully, M-D-Z liked this post
  43. #25
    500 Club - QQ All Star
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    500
    Points
    8,413
    Level
    61
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 37
    Overall activity: 42.0%
    Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Yes yes, keep things in perspective!

    I'm just pointing out some variables that I don't think everyone realizes. Also, if there's a possibility of upgrading your listening experience by pushing a button or setting a switch differently (ie. no money required), who wouldn't want that right?

    Mix and mastering quality are absolutely the main thing. Sample rate conversions and format conversions between DSD and HD PCM are subtle in the long and short of things. Reducing 24 bit to 16 bit is next. (You'd still never hear that on cheaper speakers.) The muddiness of dts or especially dolby are striking though. If I was not hearing a difference on a reasonable decent system between dts and lossless discreet surround, I'd go looking for what I had set wrong. Because that would mean I absolutely had something screwed up! Just saying.

    I'll say it again. We live in the golden age of audio now!
    But the greed and stupidity behind this here DSD format needs to be disparaged IMHO. Not a wise use for hard earned money!

    And of course I'm also a geek and room clearing technical discussions like this also make me happy.

    PS. "Dolby Atmos" is just a poor mans surround processing system to make 'soundbars' (those ratty cheap fake speakers sold at Worst Purchase) and portable gimmicky stuff like that sound slightly more realistic (but still pretty short of good). Nothing wrong with that in itself. Nothing wrong with portable equipment either. "Soundbars" and the like cross the line into snake oil though. Actual speakers are more bang for the buck. If you already have actual speakers and amps and can listen to surround program with them, you're already light years ahead of this kludgey portable system.
    Last edited by jimfisheye; 09-11-2017 at 08:28 PM.

  44. Likes edisonbaggins, humprof, M-D-Z liked this post
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •