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Thread: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

  1. #26
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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by ubertrout View Post
    Well, Sony/Philips wanted a next-gen audio format, and the consumer hook was that it was higher-resolution and multichannel. So the audio quality element was a necessary part of the equation, and the central problem they discovered is that there just aren't enough people who care. Without our goals the whole project would have been even more stillborn than it was. My point, though, is simply that having a format war without much of a market meant that to the extent any chance of success of a next-gen audio format existed, consumer confusion snuffed it out.
    Sure. I was not saying that they (1) would not choose to add valuable elements as a way to market their efforts nor (2) screw it up along the way. It's what they do.
    Kal Rubinson
    "Music in the Round"
    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by bmoura View Post
    Amusing indeed.
    The good news is that DSD is alive and well. And unlikely to "go away".
    sa-cd.net how many are there?
    The format was an audiophile intent, and has become the format they now cherish. Plus, there must be a profit from the production, and desire for music in the format. And they have the titles and license to produce the music.
    Not much different from the dvd audio days, mlp in a new format, same shit different way to play it. (better way)
    " I know more about nothing than anyone!"

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by edisonbaggins View Post
    Oh Lordy. I try to keep my personal happiness in mind, in relation to this hobby of ours.
    My system sounds great, and if other's comments on polls are good data, I'm hearing what others are hearing reasonably enough.

    Sure, there are upgrades in my future, but that is because I want to hear Atmos and Auro 3D, not because I'm concerned over fidelity or resolution.

    I honestly get the same enjoyment out of a DTS-CD as I do a 192k bluray. IMO, it's mostly the mix and mastering that count.

    It may very well be that I'm missing something, vis a vis fidelity or resolution, but life is short and happiness counts.
    Besides, I'm the sole bread winner for my growing family and I already push the limits on budget.
    EB, it's like that ole Stephen Stills Song "Love The One You're With." If you're happy with your system......that's ALL that really matters.

    Everything IS relative. Some live in mansions ...... others live a more sedate lifestyle but then that's the way it's always been throughout history.

    Me....I've been in audio forever and have always tried to keep up with the latest trends but even that's become nigh impossible. I have NO plans for Dolby Atmos [being a full range speaker man most of my life] and if I can ever get my main listening room reconfigured, my last statement will be buying these uber whacky expensive Meridian self powered speakers with built in MQA. No DSD downloads IN my future as the system will be PCM ALL the way [no digital to analogue conversion necessary].

    Just be happy because you're certainly on the right path. The enjoyment of music is the key and you're certainly accomplishing that....in spades.

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  6. #29
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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    ................................and if I can ever get my main listening room reconfigured, my last statement will be buying these uber whacky expensive Meridian self powered speakers with built in MQA.
    Those Meridians are, aside from MQA, old tech by now.
    Kal Rubinson
    "Music in the Round"
    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post
    Those Meridians are, aside from MQA, old tech by now.
    So what would YOU recommend, Kal? It's certainly NOT a done deal by any means. I can always get my deposit back. Actually, I've had my 'misgivings' about those speakers, as well. Their $20K amplified 'matching' center channel, was, IMO, a giant piece of shit! My initial attraction to them was they were self~amplified with 750 watts of power each and only required hook up to my Meridian 861 v.6 pre/pro with a single digital cable and required NO digital to analogue conversion.

    Would you ever recommend Dolby Atmos configurations or is that just a flash in the pan also? I am an ardent film buff.

    What would be YOUR speaker recommendations* but keep in mind....I have a projection screen and low 7'2" ceilings so I would only need four speakers with no center channel [which would block the screen] and would prefer matching FULL RANGE ones front and rear.

    *YG Acoustics?

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  10. #31
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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    So what would YOU recommend, Kal?
    Modern DSP does radiation control and more effective EQ. For example, https://www.stereophile.com/category...peaker-reviews

    Would you ever recommend Dolby Atmos configurations or is that just a flash in the pan also? I am an ardent film buff.
    Unlikely until there's a musical justification. I am not really into film or HT.
    Kal Rubinson
    "Music in the Round"
    Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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  12. #32
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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by edisonbaggins View Post
    I honestly get the same enjoyment out of a DTS-CD as I do a 192k bluray. IMO, it's mostly the mix and mastering that count.
    I don't. Maybe it's buying into blu-ray and some of the fantastic sounding audio on the medium, maybe it's the speakers, or the current receiver not decoding DTS as nicely as the previous one, I don't know, but there's a sound (or lack of sound, if you like) that seems to accompany the data compression when I listen.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike the Fish View Post
    I don't. Maybe it's buying into blu-ray and some of the fantastic sounding audio on the medium, maybe it's the speakers, or the current receiver not decoding DTS as nicely as the previous one, I don't know, but there's a sound (or lack of sound, if you like) that seems to accompany the data compression when I listen.
    The artifacts/loss of dts is MUCH more apparent than even reducing 24 bit to 16 bit. It's at least as obnoxious as mp3 compression IMHO. Dolby is downright glaring.

    Now this is still somewhat subtle in the big picture. Poor mixing or mastering work is far more noticeable. DTS is not "offensive" - I'd use a less strong word. (But Dolby is! I'd just listen to the stereo mix instead.) I'd still be enjoying the music in dts if I had no better options. But if the system in question supports discreet surround and I didn't hear a difference between them, that would tell me to go looking for the settings I screwed up!

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    There is a difference between not hearing the difference and actually being annoyed by it or care about it that much.
    I not only listen to mc BD, but also stereo LP. They sound very different. I enjoy both for what they are.
    A certain kind of person is going to care about subtle differences in sound and spend lots of time and money. Another type of person may be able to enjoy the differences.
    Personally, mc listening is already somewhat lonesome. Given that a wide variety of sources sound great to me, my time is best spent enjoying as much music as I can, but also getting outdoors or spending time chatting with friends or whatever else.

    Sent from my TA-1025 using Tapatalk
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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by jimfisheye View Post
    The artifacts/loss of dts is MUCH more apparent than even reducing 24 bit to 16 bit. It's at least as obnoxious as mp3 compression IMHO. Dolby is downright glaring.

    Now this is still somewhat subtle in the big picture. Poor mixing or mastering work is far more noticeable. DTS is not "offensive" - I'd use a less strong word. (But Dolby is! I'd just listen to the stereo mix instead.) I'd still be enjoying the music in dts if I had no better options. But if the system in question supports discreet surround and I didn't hear a difference between them, that would tell me to go looking for the settings I screwed up!
    When one ponders the alternative to DSD/SACD namely lossy codecs like DTS and Dolby Digital, thank the stars we have high resolution formats like DSD/SACD, DVD~A and BD~A/V to remind us ALL how VERY SPECIAL high res formats are!

    For those who are 'content' with DTS [and yes, it's better than DD], sorry you really cannot hear the difference between that and higher res formats.

    It is system dependent. That's for damn sure.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by edisonbaggins View Post
    There is a difference between not hearing the difference and actually being annoyed by it or care about it that much.
    I not only listen to mc BD, but also stereo LP. They sound very different. I enjoy both for what they are.
    A certain kind of person is going to care about subtle differences in sound and spend lots of time and money. Another type of person may be able to enjoy the differences.
    Personally, mc listening is already somewhat lonesome. Given that a wide variety of sources sound great to me, my time is best spent enjoying as much music as I can, but also getting outdoors or spending time chatting with friends or whatever else.

    Sent from my TA-1025 using Tapatalk
    Yep. You'll catch me listening to some pretty challenging fidelity sometimes because I'm still interested in the music.
    I do like to talk about tech though for one thing. I'm always interested in getting closer to an original whenever possible just because. I enjoy getting upgrades of recordings I've had for years and getting treated to details and nuance that was a little obscured before. When it comes to offering opinions on gear choices, I aim for biggest bang for the buck and keeping old but still useful gear in service whenever possible. That's where I'm coming from on that. On that note, my advice is invest in a unit with very good PCM converters and just format convert any DSD program to 24/88.2 PCM. And then watch out for the surround receivers that disable inputs and thus, for example force you to settle for dts when you have the lossless files sitting right there teasing you.

    Anyway, I'm going out in the country for a few days where there are no computer screens and not even cell reception.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    That'll be large parts of the UK then! I can only get GSM out here in the wilderness, I do have around 25Mb/s broadband to the house, but I'm one of the lucky ones........

    Quote Originally Posted by jimfisheye View Post
    Anyway, I'm going out in the country for a few days where there are no computer screens and not even cell reception.
    254 SACD (219 Multi, 35 Stereo), 218 DVD-Audio/DTS/DD, 27 Blu-ray Audio (19 Multi, 8 Stereo), 14 SQ LPs, 2218 plain old stereo CDs

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike the Fish View Post
    I don't. Maybe it's buying into blu-ray and some of the fantastic sounding audio on the medium, maybe it's the speakers, or the current receiver not decoding DTS as nicely as the previous one, I don't know, but there's a sound (or lack of sound, if you like) that seems to accompany the data compression when I listen.
    I recall being blown away by the sound of my Millennium 2.4.6 DTS Decoder/Preamp, in patricular the DTS CD "BILLIE MYERS - Growing Pains". DTS have the audacity to say that they use compression to improve the sound! Actually there is some truth in that statement as for one thing DTS CD's are 20bit where as CD's are only 16bit. I've been a bit less impressed with the sound of DTS from my universal DVD players, I don't know if the built in decoders are of lesser quality than that of the Millennium or if it's just that it's up against the sound of DVD-Audio and SACD. The difference between DTS and Dolby however is like night and day!

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    I nice album, haven't listened to it in a while, its just gone on tomorrow's play list. I have set the Oppo to produce PCM for all disc formats, sounds Ok. BTW SACD works out at about the equivalent of 20-bits as well due to the oversampling.
    Quote Originally Posted by par4ken View Post
    I recall being blown away by the sound of my Millennium 2.4.6 DTS Decoder/Preamp, in patricular the DTS CD "BILLIE MYERS - Growing Pains". DTS have the audacity to say that they use compression to improve the sound! Actually there is some truth in that statement as for one thing DTS CD's are 20bit where as CD's are only 16bit. I've been a bit less impressed with the sound of DTS from my universal DVD players, I don't know if the built in decoders are of lesser quality than that of the Millennium or if it's just that it's up against the sound of DVD-Audio and SACD. The difference between DTS and Dolby however is like night and day!
    254 SACD (219 Multi, 35 Stereo), 218 DVD-Audio/DTS/DD, 27 Blu-ray Audio (19 Multi, 8 Stereo), 14 SQ LPs, 2218 plain old stereo CDs

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    My initial attraction to them was they were self~amplified with 750 watts of power each and only required hook up to my Meridian 861 v.6 pre/pro with a single digital cable and required NO digital to analogue conversion.
    I cant understand how there is no D/A conversion step. There must be. The cone drivers themselves are analog devices, aren't they? They cant be driven directly with a digital signal. So somewhere in the loudspeaker enclosure is a DA conversion step and probably a good amount of DSP circuitry. The internal amps themselves might have digital systems supporting them, but the current amplification required to support 750 watts of power has to be rooted in the analog domain as well.

    Is this not the case? Isn't the overall concept one of re-locating the digital processing and amplification stages into the speaker enclosure and optimizing it all to work together?

    Or have I missed something (again)?

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvMyQuad View Post
    I cant understand how there is no D/A conversion step. There must be. The cone drivers themselves are analog devices, aren't they? They cant be driven directly with a digital signal. So somewhere in the loudspeaker enclosure is a DA conversion step and probably a good amount of DSP circuitry. The internal amps themselves might have digital systems supporting them, but the current amplification required to support 750 watts of power has to be rooted in the analog domain as well.

    Is this not the case? Isn't the overall concept one of re-locating the digital processing and amplification stages into the speaker enclosure and optimizing it all to work together?

    Or have I missed something (again)?
    https://www.meridian-audio.com/media...t-a-glance.pdf

    I would be utilizing four of these speakers with the Meridian 861 v.6 Pre/Pro which itself converts ALL incoming signals to digital .... thus, my reluctance to embrace DSD downloads which would be converted to PCM.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by par4ken View Post
    I recall being blown away by the sound of my Millennium 2.4.6 DTS Decoder/Preamp, in patricular the DTS CD "BILLIE MYERS - Growing Pains". DTS have the audacity to say that they use compression to improve the sound! Actually there is some truth in that statement as for one thing DTS CD's are 20bit where as CD's are only 16bit. I've been a bit less impressed with the sound of DTS from my universal DVD players, I don't know if the built in decoders are of lesser quality than that of the Millennium or if it's just that it's up against the sound of DVD-Audio and SACD. The difference between DTS and Dolby however is like night and day!
    DTS 5.1 discs are NOT 20 bit. They're 16 bit/44.1. I know a number of DTS Entertainment's DTS discs touted 20 bit on their spines but I interpreted that as replicated from 20 bit masters.

    HDCD also made statements that in effect their encoded discs were 20 bit as well. I know CARY Audio stated that their player's proprietary HDCD decoders were TRUE 20 bit but never had the opportunity to own or audition one of their players.

    NO RBCD which adheres to the SONY/Philips red book standard is 20/24 bit. That's why MLP DVD~A, SACD and BD~A exist.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    https://www.meridian-audio.com/media...t-a-glance.pdf

    I would be utilizing four of these speakers with the Meridian 861 v.6 Pre/Pro which itself converts ALL incoming signals to digital .... thus, my reluctance to embrace DSD downloads which would be converted to PCM.
    I looked at it. I don't see anywhere where it says there is no D-A conversion. The D-A conversion stage is in the speaker, probably upstream from the power amplification. In fact, the very page you pointed me toward says :

    New extended-bandwidth analogue electronics, optimized to deliver maximum performance from high-resolution recordings

    Yes, the speaker takes a digital input as opposed to an analog input, but that is not something that hasn't already been done by others, and it doesn't mean there is no D-A conversion step.

    To my mind the advantage of an integrated speaker like this is that the D-A converter, DSP processor, amplification and crossover network etc., can all be optimized to best work with each other. And if the incoming signal is split properly and if there are enough converters and amps to go around, the various frequency bands can be handled differently from each other. For example, the crossover network for the speaker drivers can be done in the digital domain just like any other kind of DSP processing. A separate D-A converter and amp section can be provided for each driver and the amps can be made to work specifically with the load characteristics of the individual speaker drivers. I wouldn't doubt that the excellent fidelity you and Meridian claim for these units is due to a first rate execution of this approach.

    As far as the Pre/Pro converting all incoming analog to digital, that also is nothing new. Do you even have any analog sources to convert? And if you do, I'm kinda surprised that a high end audiophile like yourself would actually welcome an extra A-D conversion step for the analog signals, although with the kind of DSP processing available now, the extra conversion to digital may well pay off in an overall superior sonic experience.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvMyQuad View Post
    I looked at it. I don't see anywhere where it says there is no D-A conversion. The D-A conversion stage is in the speaker, probably upstream from the power amplification. In fact, the very page you pointed me toward says :

    New extended-bandwidth analogue electronics, optimized to deliver maximum performance from high-resolution recordings

    Yes, the speaker takes a digital input as opposed to an analog input, but that is not something that hasn't already been done by others, and it doesn't mean there is no D-A conversion step.

    To my mind the advantage of an integrated speaker like this is that the D-A converter, DSP processor, amplification and crossover network etc., can all be optimized to best work with each other. And if the incoming signal is split properly and if there are enough converters and amps to go around, the various frequency bands can be handled differently from each other. For example, the crossover network for the speaker drivers can be done in the digital domain just like any other kind of DSP processing. A separate D-A converter and amp section can be provided for each driver and the amps can be made to work specifically with the load characteristics of the individual speaker drivers. I wouldn't doubt that the excellent fidelity you and Meridian claim for these units is due to a first rate execution of this approach.

    As far as the Pre/Pro converting all incoming analog to digital, that also is nothing new. Do you even have any analog sources to convert? And if you do, I'm kinda surprised that a high end audiophile like yourself would actually welcome an extra A-D conversion step for the analog signals, although with the kind of DSP processing available now, the extra conversion to digital may well pay off in an overall superior sonic experience.
    MY understanding is that like HDMI cables connecting your Video signal to your TV and concurrently sound to your pre/pro, with a single cable, the speakers will be connected to the pre pro with no conversion......thus D>D.

    BTW, My Marantz SA 11S3 Stereo SACD player is connected analogue out via stereo RCA interconnects to the Meridian and yes, it too, is converted to DIGITAL.

    As I told Kaql Rubinson of Stereophile Magazine, this is NOT a done deal. I did put down a hefty deposit, did get a VERY generous discount on the speakers and it will include Meridian's new MQA technology but my game plan in purchasing these speakers was not to be burdened with buying separate amps, subs, and esoteric speaker wire to ensure absolute parity in sound from all four speakers.

    These speakers take two full days to set up and once positioned, Meridian will perform their proprietary room correction which has been acknowledged to be among the most proficient.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    DTS 5.1 discs are NOT 20 bit. They're 16 bit/44.1. I know a number of DTS Entertainment's DTS discs touted 20 bit on their spines but I interpreted that as replicated from 20 bit masters.

    HDCD also made statements that in effect their encoded discs were 20 bit as well. I know CARY Audio stated that their player's proprietary HDCD decoders were TRUE 20 bit but never had the opportunity to own or audition one of their players.

    NO RBCD which adheres to the SONY/Philips red book standard is 20/24 bit. That's why MLP DVD~A, SACD and BD~A exist.
    This is a quote from the Millennium manual
    "DTS Digital Surround provides up to 6 discrete (separate) channels of high quality digital audio,
    resulting in exceptional clarity throughout a "true" 360 soundfield. DTS Digital Surround delivers
    up to 6-channels of transparent 20 bit audio at 44.1 kHz, resulting in a better than CD sound
    with high bit-rates and minimal digital compression. DTS represents the highest quality multichannel
    audio possible within the compact disc, laserdisc and DVD audio standards."

    It's my understanding that the information written on the DTS CD is not at all the same as the PCM audio of a CD, that's why higher bit depth is possible.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by par4ken View Post
    This is a quote from the Millennium manual
    "DTS Digital Surround provides up to 6 discrete (separate) channels of high quality digital audio,
    resulting in exceptional clarity throughout a "true" 360 soundfield. DTS Digital Surround delivers
    up to 6-channels of transparent 20 bit audio at 44.1 kHz, resulting in a better than CD sound
    with high bit-rates and minimal digital compression. DTS represents the highest quality multichannel
    audio possible within the compact disc, laserdisc and DVD audio standards."

    It's my understanding that the information written on the DTS CD is not at all the same as the PCM audio of a CD, that's why higher bit depth is possible.
    DTS, like Dolby Digital, employs a compression scheme which allows up to 5.1 channels to be encoded and then decoded on a 16/44.1 RBCD. Dolby Digital cannot work on a RBCD....only a DVD....or a BD~V.

    And yes, to all our ears, the minimal compression scheme employed by DTS is preferable to DD, which utilizes a much higher compression scheme.

    If true 20 bit could be achieved from DTS on a RBCD then why even upgrade to MLP DVD~A or higher res.

    If you really think DTS sounds as good as MLP DVD~A come over to my house and I'll prove you 100% WRONG!

    I utilize different players in my main system and while, for instance, the TULL 5.1 DTS encoded discs sound marvelous....once I play the MLP 96/24 Stereo Steve Wilson remaster on my Meridian 808 reference player, ALL BETS are OFF. The MLP Stereo literally leaves the DTS encode in the dust.

    Note: I also have an OPPO BDP~105 Universal player and rule of thumb....if you play the TULL DTS 5.1 discs on a Universal type player and then the MLP Stereo version ON THE SAME PLAYER it won't be as apparent.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    If true 20 bit could be achieved from DTS on a RBCD then why even upgrade to MLP DVD~A or higher res.

    If you really think DTS sounds as good as MLP DVD~A come over to my house and I'll prove you 100% WRONG!

    I utilize different players in my main system and while, for instance, the TULL 5.1 DTS encoded discs sound marvelous....once I play the 96/24 MLP Stereo Steve Wilson remaster on my Meridian 808 reference player, ALL BETS are OFF. The MLP Stereo literally leaves the DTS encode in the dust.

    Note: I also have an OPPO BDP~105 Universal player and rule of thumb....if you play the TULL DTS 5.1 discs on a Universal type player and then the MLP Stereo version ON THE SAME PLAYER it won't be as apparent.
    As far as I understand (understood) it, a DTS CD does indeed contain a 20 bit stream when encoded and it has nothing to do with the type of master it came from. The CD medium has a maximum storage capacity of about 800MB. The standard bit depth is for an audio CD is 16 bit with a 44.1 kHz sample rate, and this will provide about 80 minutes of music. The DTS system encodes a 20 bit data stream, but compresses it in a lossy fashion, so much so that it can fit a 6 channel 20 bit stream into the space afforded by the CD medium. The compression process is supposedly psychoacoustically selective with the data it removes. It then wraps the compressed data stream in a 16 bit container to fool the player into thinking its just a normal CD. When the data stream is played back, the DTS capable processor recognizes it as a DTS stream and decodes it accordingly. If you play it on a standard CD player you just get noise because the player thinks its a normal 16 bit audio stream, but it isn't.

    The reason to upgrade to MLP or a higher resolution is to provide for both a higher sample rate (to 48kHz, 96kHz, and higher) and a lossless compression scheme, in addition to increasing the bit depth from 20 to 24. But all this takes up a lot more space than what is available on a CD. So it has to be written to a DVD, which has a storage capacity nearing 5GB, several times the space available on a CD.

    There ARE indeed CD's sourced from 20 bit masters, but they are encoded as standard 16/44.1 and will play on any CD player and have nothing to do with DTS. The 20 bit data is simply down sampled to fit in the available space.

    And if i'm understanding your equipment performance comments correctly, the difference in sound quality from DTS 24/96 and MLP 24/96 is greater on your Meridian player than it is on your Oppo, yes? How do you know the Meridian player simply isn't better at playing MLP than it is at playing DTS? Or for that matter, how do you know the Oppo isn't better at playing DTS than the Meridian? You would have to A/B the Meridian DTS stream vs the Oppo DTS stream.

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvMyQuad View Post
    As far as I understand (understood) it, a DTS CD does indeed contain a 20 bit stream when encoded and it has nothing to do with the type of master it came from. The CD medium has a maximum storage capacity of about 800MB. The standard bit depth is for an audio CD is 16 bit with a 44.1 kHz sample rate, and this will provide about 80 minutes of music. The DTS system encodes a 20 bit data stream, but compresses it in a lossy fashion, so much so that it can fit a 6 channel 20 bit stream into the space afforded by the CD medium. The compression process is supposedly psychoacoustically selective with the data it removes. It then wraps the compressed data stream in a 16 bit container to fool the player into thinking its just a normal CD. When the data stream is played back, the DTS capable processor recognizes it as a DTS stream and decodes it accordingly. If you play it on a standard CD player you just get noise because the player thinks its a normal 16 bit audio stream, but it isn't.

    The reason to upgrade to MLP or a higher resolution is to provide for both a higher sample rate (to 48kHz, 96kHz, and higher) and a lossless compression scheme, in addition to increasing the bit depth from 20 to 24. But all this takes up a lot more space than what is available on a CD. So it has to be written to a DVD, which has a storage capacity nearing 5GB, several times the space available on a CD.

    There ARE indeed CD's sourced from 20 bit masters, but they are encoded as standard 16/44.1 and will play on any CD player and have nothing to do with DTS. The 20 bit data is simply down sampled to fit in the available space.

    And if i'm understanding your equipment performance comments correctly, the difference in sound quality from DTS 24/96 and MLP 24/96 is greater on your Meridian player than it is on your Oppo, yes? How do you know the Meridian player simply isn't better at playing MLP than it is at playing DTS? Or for that matter, how do you know the Oppo isn't better at playing DTS than the Meridian? You would have to A/B the Meridian DTS stream vs the Oppo DTS stream.
    DTS RBCDs are 16 bit. Period. If you can prove otherwise, I'm ALL ears. Even if, as you surmise, they employ a 20 bit data stream....the final RBCD REMAINS 16 bit. It's the REDBOOK standard and cannot be altered so as to be backwards compatible with ALL existing RBCD players.

    And Yes, My Meridians [800/808] play DTS and DVD~A MUCH better than the OPPO 105. But I could NOT live without my OPPO as it's a brilliant BD~A/V Player....which the Meridians are NOT!

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by 4-earredwonder View Post
    DTS, like Dolby Digital, employs a compression scheme which allows up to 5.1 channels to be encoded and then decoded on a 16/44.1 RBCD. Dolby Digital cannot work on a RBCD....only a DVD....or a BD~V.

    And yes, to all our ears, the minimal compression scheme employed by DTS is preferable to DD, which utilizes a much higher compression scheme.

    If true 20 bit could be achieved from DTS on a RBCD then why even upgrade to MLP DVD~A or higher res.

    If you really think DTS sounds as good as MLP DVD~A come over to my house and I'll prove you 100% WRONG!

    I utilize different players in my main system and while, for instance, the TULL 5.1 DTS encoded discs sound marvelous....once I play the MLP 96/24 Stereo Steve Wilson remaster on my Meridian 808 reference player, ALL BETS are OFF. The MLP Stereo literally leaves the DTS encode in the dust.

    Note: I also have an OPPO BDP~105 Universal player and rule of thumb....if you play the TULL DTS 5.1 discs on a Universal type player and then the MLP Stereo version ON THE SAME PLAYER it won't be as apparent.
    Whoh, I never said that DTS was as good as MLP.
    I do believe the literature that DTS CD's can produce bit depths of up to 20 bit, now I don't know if they all actually do or not but really see no reason to doubt it.. DTS and PCM are two different animals, they work differently, just coded as to produce a digital output from the player (which doesn't know the difference) a regular data disc could not be read in a regular CD player.
    Now just because you can get 20 bits from DTS on a CD doesn't mean we don't need anything better. DTS does use compression so some details are bound to be lost. The masses are content with MP3's, but in high end audio the sky's the limit! I now see some 384 KHz 24 bit downloads for sale, CRAZY!

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    Default Re: I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

    Quote Originally Posted by par4ken View Post
    Whoh, I never said that DTS was as good as MLP.
    I do believe the literature that DTS CD's can produce bit depths of up to 20 bit, now I don't know if they all actually do or not but really see no reason to doubt it.. DTS and PCM are two different animals, they work differently, just coded as to produce a digital output from the player (which doesn't know the difference) a regular data disc could not be read in a regular CD player.
    Now just because you can get 20 bits from DTS on a CD doesn't mean we don't need anything better. DTS does use compression so some details are bound to be lost. The masses are content with MP3's, but in high end audio the sky's the limit! I now see some 384 KHz 24 bit downloads for sale, CRAZY!
    DTS is PCM encoded to produce [and IMO, effectively] 5.1 channels of sound. And don't get me wrong: I cherish ALL of my DTS Entertainment DTS/MLP DVD~A discs [and yes, some are WAY better than others].

    IMO, had DTS Entertainment NOT existed, we probably wouldn't have surround music on digital physical disc formats to this day. DTS paved the way and I always commented on how they were successful in accessing Surround masters from almost all of the majors.....which, to this day, NONE of the reissue companies can accomplish with all the red tape involved.

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