I Wish SACD & DSD Would Go Away

QuadraphonicQuad

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I cant understand how there is no D/A conversion step. There must be. The cone drivers themselves are analog devices, aren't they? They cant be driven directly with a digital signal. So somewhere in the loudspeaker enclosure is a DA conversion step and probably a good amount of DSP circuitry. The internal amps themselves might have digital systems supporting them, but the current amplification required to support 750 watts of power has to be rooted in the analog domain as well.

Is this not the case? Isn't the overall concept one of re-locating the digital processing and amplification stages into the speaker enclosure and optimizing it all to work together?

Or have I missed something (again)?

https://www.meridian-audio.com/media/3736/dsp8000-at-a-glance.pdf

I would be utilizing four of these speakers with the Meridian 861 v.6 Pre/Pro which itself converts ALL incoming signals to digital .... thus, my reluctance to embrace DSD downloads which would be converted to PCM.
 
I recall being blown away by the sound of my Millennium 2.4.6 DTS Decoder/Preamp, in patricular the DTS CD "BILLIE MYERS - Growing Pains". DTS have the audacity to say that they use compression to improve the sound! Actually there is some truth in that statement as for one thing DTS CD's are 20bit where as CD's are only 16bit. I've been a bit less impressed with the sound of DTS from my universal DVD players, I don't know if the built in decoders are of lesser quality than that of the Millennium or if it's just that it's up against the sound of DVD-Audio and SACD. The difference between DTS and Dolby however is like night and day!

DTS 5.1 discs are NOT 20 bit. They're 16 bit/44.1. I know a number of DTS Entertainment's DTS discs touted 20 bit on their spines but I interpreted that as replicated from 20 bit masters.

HDCD also made statements that in effect their encoded discs were 20 bit as well. I know CARY Audio stated that their player's proprietary HDCD decoders were TRUE 20 bit but never had the opportunity to own or audition one of their players.

NO RBCD which adheres to the SONY/Philips red book standard is 20/24 bit. That's why MLP DVD~A, SACD and BD~A exist.
 
https://www.meridian-audio.com/media/3736/dsp8000-at-a-glance.pdf

I would be utilizing four of these speakers with the Meridian 861 v.6 Pre/Pro which itself converts ALL incoming signals to digital .... thus, my reluctance to embrace DSD downloads which would be converted to PCM.

I looked at it. I don't see anywhere where it says there is no D-A conversion. The D-A conversion stage is in the speaker, probably upstream from the power amplification. In fact, the very page you pointed me toward says :

New extended-bandwidth analogue electronics, optimized to deliver maximum performance from high-resolution recordings

Yes, the speaker takes a digital input as opposed to an analog input, but that is not something that hasn't already been done by others, and it doesn't mean there is no D-A conversion step.

To my mind the advantage of an integrated speaker like this is that the D-A converter, DSP processor, amplification and crossover network etc., can all be optimized to best work with each other. And if the incoming signal is split properly and if there are enough converters and amps to go around, the various frequency bands can be handled differently from each other. For example, the crossover network for the speaker drivers can be done in the digital domain just like any other kind of DSP processing. A separate D-A converter and amp section can be provided for each driver and the amps can be made to work specifically with the load characteristics of the individual speaker drivers. I wouldn't doubt that the excellent fidelity you and Meridian claim for these units is due to a first rate execution of this approach.

As far as the Pre/Pro converting all incoming analog to digital, that also is nothing new. Do you even have any analog sources to convert? And if you do, I'm kinda surprised that a high end audiophile like yourself would actually welcome an extra A-D conversion step for the analog signals, although with the kind of DSP processing available now, the extra conversion to digital may well pay off in an overall superior sonic experience.
 
I looked at it. I don't see anywhere where it says there is no D-A conversion. The D-A conversion stage is in the speaker, probably upstream from the power amplification. In fact, the very page you pointed me toward says :

New extended-bandwidth analogue electronics, optimized to deliver maximum performance from high-resolution recordings

Yes, the speaker takes a digital input as opposed to an analog input, but that is not something that hasn't already been done by others, and it doesn't mean there is no D-A conversion step.

To my mind the advantage of an integrated speaker like this is that the D-A converter, DSP processor, amplification and crossover network etc., can all be optimized to best work with each other. And if the incoming signal is split properly and if there are enough converters and amps to go around, the various frequency bands can be handled differently from each other. For example, the crossover network for the speaker drivers can be done in the digital domain just like any other kind of DSP processing. A separate D-A converter and amp section can be provided for each driver and the amps can be made to work specifically with the load characteristics of the individual speaker drivers. I wouldn't doubt that the excellent fidelity you and Meridian claim for these units is due to a first rate execution of this approach.

As far as the Pre/Pro converting all incoming analog to digital, that also is nothing new. Do you even have any analog sources to convert? And if you do, I'm kinda surprised that a high end audiophile like yourself would actually welcome an extra A-D conversion step for the analog signals, although with the kind of DSP processing available now, the extra conversion to digital may well pay off in an overall superior sonic experience.

MY understanding is that like HDMI cables connecting your Video signal to your TV and concurrently sound to your pre/pro, with a single cable, the speakers will be connected to the pre pro with no conversion......thus D>D.

BTW, My Marantz SA 11S3 Stereo SACD player is connected analogue out via stereo RCA interconnects to the Meridian and yes, it too, is converted to DIGITAL.

As I told Kaql Rubinson of Stereophile Magazine, this is NOT a done deal. I did put down a hefty deposit, did get a VERY generous discount on the speakers and it will include Meridian's new MQA technology but my game plan in purchasing these speakers was not to be burdened with buying separate amps, subs, and esoteric speaker wire to ensure absolute parity in sound from all four speakers.

These speakers take two full days to set up and once positioned, Meridian will perform their proprietary room correction which has been acknowledged to be among the most proficient.
 
DTS 5.1 discs are NOT 20 bit. They're 16 bit/44.1. I know a number of DTS Entertainment's DTS discs touted 20 bit on their spines but I interpreted that as replicated from 20 bit masters.

HDCD also made statements that in effect their encoded discs were 20 bit as well. I know CARY Audio stated that their player's proprietary HDCD decoders were TRUE 20 bit but never had the opportunity to own or audition one of their players.

NO RBCD which adheres to the SONY/Philips red book standard is 20/24 bit. That's why MLP DVD~A, SACD and BD~A exist.

This is a quote from the Millennium manual
"DTS Digital Surround provides up to 6 discrete (separate) channels of high quality digital audio,
resulting in exceptional clarity throughout a "true" 360° soundfield. DTS Digital Surround delivers
up to 6-channels of transparent 20 bit audio at 44.1 kHz, resulting in a better than CD sound
with high bit-rates and minimal digital compression. DTS represents the highest quality multichannel
audio possible within the compact disc, laserdisc and DVD audio standards."

It's my understanding that the information written on the DTS CD is not at all the same as the PCM audio of a CD, that's why higher bit depth is possible.
 
This is a quote from the Millennium manual
"DTS Digital Surround provides up to 6 discrete (separate) channels of high quality digital audio,
resulting in exceptional clarity throughout a "true" 360° soundfield. DTS Digital Surround delivers
up to 6-channels of transparent 20 bit audio at 44.1 kHz, resulting in a better than CD sound
with high bit-rates and minimal digital compression. DTS represents the highest quality multichannel
audio possible within the compact disc, laserdisc and DVD audio standards."

It's my understanding that the information written on the DTS CD is not at all the same as the PCM audio of a CD, that's why higher bit depth is possible.

DTS, like Dolby Digital, employs a compression scheme which allows up to 5.1 channels to be encoded and then decoded on a 16/44.1 RBCD. Dolby Digital cannot work on a RBCD....only a DVD....or a BD~V.

And yes, to all our ears, the minimal compression scheme employed by DTS is preferable to DD, which utilizes a much higher compression scheme.

If true 20 bit could be achieved from DTS on a RBCD then why even upgrade to MLP DVD~A or higher res.

If you really think DTS sounds as good as MLP DVD~A come over to my house and I'll prove you 100% WRONG!

I utilize different players in my main system and while, for instance, the TULL 5.1 DTS encoded discs sound marvelous....once I play the MLP 96/24 Stereo Steve Wilson remaster on my Meridian 808 reference player, ALL BETS are OFF. The MLP Stereo literally leaves the DTS encode in the dust.

Note: I also have an OPPO BDP~105 Universal player and rule of thumb....if you play the TULL DTS 5.1 discs on a Universal type player and then the MLP Stereo version ON THE SAME PLAYER it won't be as apparent.
 
If true 20 bit could be achieved from DTS on a RBCD then why even upgrade to MLP DVD~A or higher res.

If you really think DTS sounds as good as MLP DVD~A come over to my house and I'll prove you 100% WRONG!

I utilize different players in my main system and while, for instance, the TULL 5.1 DTS encoded discs sound marvelous....once I play the 96/24 MLP Stereo Steve Wilson remaster on my Meridian 808 reference player, ALL BETS are OFF. The MLP Stereo literally leaves the DTS encode in the dust.

Note: I also have an OPPO BDP~105 Universal player and rule of thumb....if you play the TULL DTS 5.1 discs on a Universal type player and then the MLP Stereo version ON THE SAME PLAYER it won't be as apparent.

As far as I understand (understood) it, a DTS CD does indeed contain a 20 bit stream when encoded and it has nothing to do with the type of master it came from. The CD medium has a maximum storage capacity of about 800MB. The standard bit depth is for an audio CD is 16 bit with a 44.1 kHz sample rate, and this will provide about 80 minutes of music. The DTS system encodes a 20 bit data stream, but compresses it in a lossy fashion, so much so that it can fit a 6 channel 20 bit stream into the space afforded by the CD medium. The compression process is supposedly psychoacoustically selective with the data it removes. It then wraps the compressed data stream in a 16 bit container to fool the player into thinking its just a normal CD. When the data stream is played back, the DTS capable processor recognizes it as a DTS stream and decodes it accordingly. If you play it on a standard CD player you just get noise because the player thinks its a normal 16 bit audio stream, but it isn't.

The reason to upgrade to MLP or a higher resolution is to provide for both a higher sample rate (to 48kHz, 96kHz, and higher) and a lossless compression scheme, in addition to increasing the bit depth from 20 to 24. But all this takes up a lot more space than what is available on a CD. So it has to be written to a DVD, which has a storage capacity nearing 5GB, several times the space available on a CD.

There ARE indeed CD's sourced from 20 bit masters, but they are encoded as standard 16/44.1 and will play on any CD player and have nothing to do with DTS. The 20 bit data is simply down sampled to fit in the available space.

And if i'm understanding your equipment performance comments correctly, the difference in sound quality from DTS 24/96 and MLP 24/96 is greater on your Meridian player than it is on your Oppo, yes? How do you know the Meridian player simply isn't better at playing MLP than it is at playing DTS? Or for that matter, how do you know the Oppo isn't better at playing DTS than the Meridian? You would have to A/B the Meridian DTS stream vs the Oppo DTS stream.
 
As far as I understand (understood) it, a DTS CD does indeed contain a 20 bit stream when encoded and it has nothing to do with the type of master it came from. The CD medium has a maximum storage capacity of about 800MB. The standard bit depth is for an audio CD is 16 bit with a 44.1 kHz sample rate, and this will provide about 80 minutes of music. The DTS system encodes a 20 bit data stream, but compresses it in a lossy fashion, so much so that it can fit a 6 channel 20 bit stream into the space afforded by the CD medium. The compression process is supposedly psychoacoustically selective with the data it removes. It then wraps the compressed data stream in a 16 bit container to fool the player into thinking its just a normal CD. When the data stream is played back, the DTS capable processor recognizes it as a DTS stream and decodes it accordingly. If you play it on a standard CD player you just get noise because the player thinks its a normal 16 bit audio stream, but it isn't.

The reason to upgrade to MLP or a higher resolution is to provide for both a higher sample rate (to 48kHz, 96kHz, and higher) and a lossless compression scheme, in addition to increasing the bit depth from 20 to 24. But all this takes up a lot more space than what is available on a CD. So it has to be written to a DVD, which has a storage capacity nearing 5GB, several times the space available on a CD.

There ARE indeed CD's sourced from 20 bit masters, but they are encoded as standard 16/44.1 and will play on any CD player and have nothing to do with DTS. The 20 bit data is simply down sampled to fit in the available space.

And if i'm understanding your equipment performance comments correctly, the difference in sound quality from DTS 24/96 and MLP 24/96 is greater on your Meridian player than it is on your Oppo, yes? How do you know the Meridian player simply isn't better at playing MLP than it is at playing DTS? Or for that matter, how do you know the Oppo isn't better at playing DTS than the Meridian? You would have to A/B the Meridian DTS stream vs the Oppo DTS stream.

DTS RBCDs are 16 bit. Period. If you can prove otherwise, I'm ALL ears. Even if, as you surmise, they employ a 20 bit data stream....the final RBCD REMAINS 16 bit. It's the REDBOOK standard and cannot be altered so as to be backwards compatible with ALL existing RBCD players.

And Yes, My Meridians [800/808] play DTS and DVD~A MUCH better than the OPPO 105. But I could NOT live without my OPPO as it's a brilliant BD~A/V Player....which the Meridians are NOT!
 
DTS, like Dolby Digital, employs a compression scheme which allows up to 5.1 channels to be encoded and then decoded on a 16/44.1 RBCD. Dolby Digital cannot work on a RBCD....only a DVD....or a BD~V.

And yes, to all our ears, the minimal compression scheme employed by DTS is preferable to DD, which utilizes a much higher compression scheme.

If true 20 bit could be achieved from DTS on a RBCD then why even upgrade to MLP DVD~A or higher res.

If you really think DTS sounds as good as MLP DVD~A come over to my house and I'll prove you 100% WRONG!

I utilize different players in my main system and while, for instance, the TULL 5.1 DTS encoded discs sound marvelous....once I play the MLP 96/24 Stereo Steve Wilson remaster on my Meridian 808 reference player, ALL BETS are OFF. The MLP Stereo literally leaves the DTS encode in the dust.

Note: I also have an OPPO BDP~105 Universal player and rule of thumb....if you play the TULL DTS 5.1 discs on a Universal type player and then the MLP Stereo version ON THE SAME PLAYER it won't be as apparent.
Whoh, I never said that DTS was as good as MLP.
I do believe the literature that DTS CD's can produce bit depths of up to 20 bit, now I don't know if they all actually do or not but really see no reason to doubt it.. DTS and PCM are two different animals, they work differently, just coded as to produce a digital output from the player (which doesn't know the difference) a regular data disc could not be read in a regular CD player.
Now just because you can get 20 bits from DTS on a CD doesn't mean we don't need anything better. DTS does use compression so some details are bound to be lost. The masses are content with MP3's, but in high end audio the sky's the limit! I now see some 384 KHz 24 bit downloads for sale, CRAZY!
 
Whoh, I never said that DTS was as good as MLP.
I do believe the literature that DTS CD's can produce bit depths of up to 20 bit, now I don't know if they all actually do or not but really see no reason to doubt it.. DTS and PCM are two different animals, they work differently, just coded as to produce a digital output from the player (which doesn't know the difference) a regular data disc could not be read in a regular CD player.
Now just because you can get 20 bits from DTS on a CD doesn't mean we don't need anything better. DTS does use compression so some details are bound to be lost. The masses are content with MP3's, but in high end audio the sky's the limit! I now see some 384 KHz 24 bit downloads for sale, CRAZY!

DTS is PCM encoded to produce [and IMO, effectively] 5.1 channels of sound. And don't get me wrong: I cherish ALL of my DTS Entertainment DTS/MLP DVD~A discs [and yes, some are WAY better than others].

IMO, had DTS Entertainment NOT existed, we probably wouldn't have surround music on digital physical disc formats to this day. DTS paved the way and I always commented on how they were successful in accessing Surround masters from almost all of the majors.....which, to this day, NONE of the reissue companies can accomplish with all the red tape involved.
 
DTS RBCDs are 16 bit. Period. If you can prove otherwise, I'm ALL ears. Even if, as you surmise, they employ a 20 bit data stream....the final RBCD REMAINS 16 bit. It's the REDBOOK standard and cannot be altered so as to be backwards compatible with ALL existing RBCD players.

I can prove it pretty easily. If a DTS CD actually was 16/44.1, it would play in a standard RBCD player. But it cant, because its a 20 bit recording.

The fact is, 16 bit CD's have nothing special about the data that quantifies it as 16 bit. The (very) simplified explanation is this, the data is all just ones and zeros in a continuous stream. The wrapper tells the player how to interpret it and the wrapper instructs the player that the first 16 digits is the first sample, the next 16 is the second sample and so on. A DTS CD has the same wrapper. When it plays in a standard RBCD player it assumes the first 16 digits is the first sample, the next 16 is the second sample just like before, but in reality the first 16 digits is really only 16/20=4/5 of the first sample. The next 16 is really 4/20=1/5 of the first sample combined with 12/20=3/5 of the second sample. Throw in other things related to the error correction scheme like parity bits and such (also in the wrong "place" as viewed by the player} and you end up with the resulting white noise that is produced.

When that same stream is fed to a DTS compatible system, it disregards the 16 bit wrapper instructions and looks at the data stream itself. It recognizes it as a 20 bit data stream and decodes it accordingly, in groups of 20 digits per sample. That's the reason a DTS CD often skips the first second or two on the disk. The data IS there, but it takes the decoder a second or two to analyze it and realize its actually a DTS stream.
 
I can prove it pretty easily. If a DTS CD actually was 16/44.1, it would play in a standard RBCD player. But it cant, because its a 20 bit recording.

The fact is, 16 bit CD's have nothing special about the data that quantifies it as 16 bit. The (very) simplified explanation is this, the data is all just ones and zeros in a continuous stream. The wrapper tells the player how to interpret it and the wrapper instructs the player that the first 16 digits is the first sample, the next 16 is the second sample and so on. A DTS CD has the same wrapper. When it plays in a standard RBCD player it assumes the first 16 digits is the first sample, the next 16 is the second sample just like before, but in reality the first 16 digits is really only 16/20=4/5 of the first sample. The next 16 is really 4/20=1/5 of the first sample combined with 12/20=3/5 of the second sample. Throw in other things related to the error correction scheme like parity bits and such (also in the wrong "place" as viewed by the player} and you end up with the resulting white noise that is produced.

When that same stream is fed to a DTS compatible system, it disregards the 16 bit wrapper instructions and looks at the data stream itself. It recognizes it as a 20 bit data stream and decodes it accordingly, in groups of 20 digits per sample. That's the reason a DTS CD often skips the first second or two on the disk. The data IS there, but it takes the decoder a second or two to analyze it and realize its actually a DTS stream.

Wrong: Almost all modern RBCD players can play ENCODED DTS RBCDs analogue out to the pre/pro as the DTS processing [decode] is performed within the player.

NO RBCD player that I know of can play 20 bit RBCDs as they just don't exist.

Had the original RBCD rebook standard been 20 bit from the get go, we probably wouldn't have the need to replace it with higher res formats. Originally, co~inventor Philips wanted to release RBCD with 12 bits and SONY resisted, insisting on at the very least 16 bit.
 
Wrong: Almost all modern RBCD players can play ENCODED DTS RBCDs analogue out to the pre/pro as the DTS processing [decode] is performed within the player.

NO RBCD player that I know of can play 20 bit RBCDs as they just don't exist.

Had the original RBCD rebook standard been 20 bit from the get go, we probably wouldn't have the need to replace it with higher res formats. Originally, co~inventor Philips wanted to release RBCD with 12 bits and SONY resisted, insisting on at least 16 bit.

No, Redbook CD players output digitally via fiber optic or coaxial connection to a pre/pro. Players without digital outputs cannot play DTS CDs. The analog outputs would sound like a fax machine, nothing but noise. They are actually more like CD-ROMs than Redbook CDs.
 
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Wrong: Almost all modern RBCD players can play ENCODED DTS RBCDs analogue out to the pre/pro as the DTS processing [decode] is performed within the player.

NO RBCD player that I know of can play 20 bit RBCDs as they just don't exist.

Had the original RBCD rebook standard been 20 bit from the get go, we probably wouldn't have the need to replace it with higher res formats. Originally, co~inventor Philips wanted to release RBCD with 12 bits and SONY resisted, insisting on at the very least 16 bit.

This isn't correct. Aside from the fact that plenty of players can play RBCDs in 20 bit (AKA HDCDs), you're confusing the redbook format (which is limited to 16 bits as a raw audio source) and using the redbook data format as essentially a data container. A DTS CD encodes 20-bit/48 khz compressed 6-channel audio as 1441 kbps redbook audio. That's why it's just noise to the player - it's a data stream masquerading as 16-bit audio, but is actually 20-bit surround audio.

But don't just believe me - DTS advertised this on its original CDs:

51WMbFlEojL.jpg
 
The DTS system encodes a 20 bit data stream, but compresses it in a lossy fashion, so much so that it can fit a 6 channel 20 bit stream into the space afforded by the CD medium. The compression process is supposedly psychoacoustically selective with the data it removes. It then wraps the compressed data stream in a 16 bit container to fool the player into thinking its just a normal CD....

DTS RBCDs are 16 bit. Period.

I don't know if this has been realized yet, but these are not incompatible statements in any way.

I'm not an audio guy, but I do know a thing or two about data.
 
This isn't correct. Aside from the fact that plenty of players can play RBCDs in 20 bit (AKA HDCDs), you're confusing the redbook format (which is limited to 16 bits as a raw audio source) and using the redbook data format as essentially a data container. A DTS CD encodes 20-bit/48 khz compressed 6-channel audio as 1441 kbps redbook audio. That's why it's just noise to the player - it's a data stream masquerading as 16-bit audio, but is actually 20-bit surround audio.

But don't just believe me - DTS advertised this on its original CDs:

View attachment 30669

I apologize, ubertrout and LuvMyQuad:. You are both correct and I am Wrong: http://www.5point1.com/aboutdts.html
 
I just appreciate being here to listen in on the discussions and opinions of the real mountain climbers of surround sound. Lead on I say! See you back at the lodge.
 
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