Quadraphonic on a 7.1 surround system?

Hi folks,

I'm currently playing Quad recordings from SQ, CD-4, and SACD/Blu-Ray discrete Quad mixes through a 5.1 system (really 4.1 with a virtual center channel). The rear surround speakers are at the sides of the listening position, but there is a lot of room behind the listening position.

So, for Quad stuff, I'm simply running RR and LR into the SR and SL of the 7.1 channel analog inputs of my preamp/processor.

I'm thinking, though, of adding rear speakers, to be suspended from the ceiling 6 feet or so behind the listening position. In that kind of a 7.1-ish setup, should I use the BR and BL for the rear channels from the SQ decoder, etc? What about for the SACD/Blu-Ray playback? Is there some sort of 4.0 to 7.1 translation I can take advantage of? When I reconfigure the Blu-Ray player for 7.1, will it "know" to do something different with the rear channel information from 4.0?

The equipment in question is an Oppo BDP-83SE, a Marantz AV-7005, and, in the case of SQ, a Lafayette SQ-W. The front speakers are Magnepan Tympani IVs, with a VMPS New Larger sub. The side speakers are some mid-sized Energy bookshelves. The AV-7005 handles crossing over rear/side LF content to send to the sub. IIRC, I've got them crossed over around 80Hz or so. The back speakers would also be about 80Hz and up. They would be bookshelves attached to the ceiling and pointed forward - not in-ceiling speakers.

Obviously, the "correct" configuration for playing Quad is four evenly placed identical speakers, but I am not that much of a purist and don't have the room or budget for different installations to handle all the different audio and movie formats. I'm looking for the best compromise options to handle Quad content in a modern AV setup.

Thanks,
Paul

One choice would be recreated ambiance derived from the side (LR & RR) channels, fed to the new rear speakers.

The way to get there might imply new hardware and a somewhat Rube Goldbergish setup.

With SACD (converted to PCM) and Blu-ray sources, digital sources/digital inputs, your receiver may have capabilities to derive rear surround channels from the side surround channels. Perhaps you can live with no new channels from analog sources (SQ/CD-4).

Hmm... let me ask one simple question, since all the background is in the original post:

For people playing Quad content on a 7.1 system, do you feed the Quad rear channels to the surround side channels or the surround rear channels, or something else?

SQLGuy said:

Hmm... let me ask one simple question, since all the background is in the original post:

For people playing Quad content on a 7.1 system, do you feed the Quad rear channels to the surround side channels or the surround rear channels, or something else?

Click to expand...

I'm running 7.2, when playing quad or 5.1 I get a bit of ambience from the rear surrounds as (in most cases) what I'm playing in 4.0 or 5.1 the same surround signal will go to both sets of surrounds. But my side surrounds are towers and are perched to my left and right as I sit, the rears are smaller and in the ceiling behind me. I've set my AVR to get a bolder sound from the sides as opposed to the rears, so just a bit of ambience from them. Works for me in most cases, original quad and newer 5.1 mixes are totally different animals, and it's hard to nail a system down to satisfy both requirements.

SQLGuy said:

Hmm... let me ask one simple question, since all the background is in the original post:

For people playing Quad content on a 7.1 system, do you feed the Quad rear channels to the surround side channels or the surround rear channels, or something else?

Click to expand...

My Denon AVR plays quad rears in my Side channels. I have my 7.2 (2 subs) with full-range 'sides' at back wall floor level directly opposite the two fronts. My 'rears' are on back wall high up (3m) and wider than floor standing, just to spread the sound.

5.1 in direct mode uses fronts/sides. 7.1 direct uses all. Sometimes I use DTS:X Neural to upmix 5.1 to 7.1. Atmos uses all 7.1

When playing Quad I get nothing in the rears is pure 4 channel in 4 corners.

HOWEVER: My Denon does not play quad FLAC (4.0) I have to add a silent centre for the Denon to output quad correctly. Otherwise it outputs quad as stereo (WARNING: If yours does same you may by playing back quad as stereo with upmixed 5.1 if your processor has that option engaged!!!!). This is not quad downmixed to stereo it is ONLY the front channels!

OK. Seems a bit odd, though. Looking at Quad setup diagrams, it seems like using the rears instead of the sides would be a more correct playback setup, since that would put the rears behind the listener.

SQLGuy said:

OK. Seems a bit odd, though. Looking at Quad setup diagrams, it seems like using the rears instead of the sides would be a more correct playback setup, since that would put the rears behind the listener.

Click to expand...

That used to be the case, but there were different opinions even in the 70s. Look at the diagram in your SQ-W manual and you will see the "rears" at the side of the listener.

Today it is very likely that all modern mch mixes are made with side, not rear, speakers. It is expected that the system does double duty as movie surround.

Whatever you dream up, keep in mind that there are switches (line-level and speaker-level) that can switch between two sources (or null one) that can be easily activated with old decoders and demodulators that have hard on/off switches. Sonance makes them and perhaps others.

They are relatively expensive, but they surface once in a while at ebay.

proufo said:

That used to be the case, but there were different opinions even in the 70s. Look at the diagram in your SQ-W manual and you will see the "rears" at the side of the listener.

Today it is very likely that all modern mch mixes are made with side, not rear, speakers. It is expected that the system does double duty as movie surround.

Click to expand...

Modern mixes aren't what I'm considering here, as pretty much all of those are 5.1 and match the physical layout of my system. I am more concerned with what layout was expected for original Quad mixes. I don't have a users' manual for the SQL-W... only the service manual. I did look up a Tate manual, though, and they actually offer three suggestions: rear rears, side rears, and front "rears" (basically using the rear information to add width to the sound stage.) The side rears are more preferred, apparently, for classical, which shouldn't have much musical information from the back. I listen mostly to rock and jazz.

The original Quad idea, though, does seem to be one speaker in each corner... so, the rears behind the listener. This, incidentally, is also how IsoMike had their multi-channel setup configured for the RMAF the last few years. I have one of their discs. If/when I get the other two speakers configured, I'll need to see where they're routing the rears in a 7.1 setup. I think I'll also drop them a line to see what they can tell me about this.

I'm going to add a relay to my SQ-W so that it will bypass when switched off (pass-through for the four channels coming from the Blu-Ray player). Maybe I'll also add a couple more pairs of jacks and a switch to allow switching the rear output to rears instead of sides... if it seems to be needed once the rear speakers are in place. If some SQ content sounds better with side rears, and others with rear rears, it might be.

I route the quad back channels to my surround speakers. Occasionally I will duplicate the quad back channels in the rear speakers as well. Ditto with 5.1. The surround are floor standers while the rears are smaller speakers mounted well above ear level. So duplication of the surrounds in the rears adds a bit of height and natural ambience to the overall presentation, but the effect is subtle.

(Aside: Then I've got Lexicon Logic 7 which can actually transform a 4.0 or 5.1 into a true 7.1 presentation. The results are mixed ranging from making a silk purse out of a sow's ear to screwing everything up.)

SQLGuy said:

I don't have a users' manual for the SQL-W...

Click to expand...

There is a place here in QQ where there are many manuals, including the one for the Lafayette. Don't know where, don't know when (yes, WMAgain has degenerated into an earworm).

SQLGuy said:

Hi folks,

I'm currently playing Quad recordings from SQ, CD-4, and SACD/Blu-Ray discrete Quad mixes through a 5.1 system (really 4.1 with a virtual center channel). The rear surround speakers are at the sides of the listening position, but there is a lot of room behind the listening position.

So, for Quad stuff, I'm simply running RR and LR into the SR and SL of the 7.1 channel analog inputs of my preamp/processor.

I'm thinking, though, of adding rear speakers, to be suspended from the ceiling 6 feet or so behind the listening position. In that kind of a 7.1-ish setup, should I use the BR and BL for the rear channels from the SQ decoder, etc? What about for the SACD/Blu-Ray playback? Is there some sort of 4.0 to 7.1 translation I can take advantage of? When I reconfigure the Blu-Ray player for 7.1, will it "know" to do something different with the rear channel information fro

The equipment in question is an Oppo BDP-83SE, a Marantz AV-7005, and, in the case of SQ, a Lafayette SQ-W. The front speakers are Magnepan Tympani IVs, with a VMPS New Larger sub. The side speakers are some mid-sized Energy bookshelves. The AV-7005 handles crossing over rear/side LF content to send to the sub. IIRC, I've got them crossed over around 80Hz or so. The back speakers would also be about 80Hz and up. They would be bookshelves attached to the ceiling and pointed forward - not in-ceiling speakers.

Obviously, the "correct" configuration for playing Quad is four evenly placed identical speakers, but I am not that much of a purist and don't have the room or budget for different installations to handle all the different audio and movie formats. I'm looking for the best compromise options to handle Quad content in a modern AV setup.

Thanks,
Paul

Click to expand...

I've been experimenting with ceiling speakers for years. Through trial and error I would recommend that all ceiling speakers be pointing directly towards the sweet spot if possible. Makes a very big difference.

I've ordered a pair of Q Acoustics 3020s for the rears. I think I'll actually be putting them on shelves on the side walls about 6' behind the listening area.

I spoke with someone at IsoMike. He confirmed that the rears for their recordings are, in fact, in the rear, like the back speakers of a 7.1 setup. They're going to send me some details of their setup.

HomerJAU said:

My Denon AVR plays quad rears in my Side channels. I have my 7.2 (2 subs) with full-range 'sides' at back wall floor level directly opposite the two fronts. My 'rears' are on back wall high up (3m) and wider than floor standing, just to spread the sound.

5.1 in direct mode uses fronts/sides. 7.1 direct uses all. Sometimes I use DTS:X Neural to upmix 5.1 to 7.1. Atmos uses all 7.1

When playing Quad I get nothing in the rears is pure 4 channel in 4 corners.

HOWEVER: My Denon does not play quad FLAC (4.0) I have to add a silent centre for the Denon to output quad correctly. Otherwise it outputs quad as stereo (WARNING: If yours does same you may by playing back quad as stereo with upmixed 5.1 if your processor has that option engaged!!!!). This is not quad downmixed to stereo it is ONLY the front channels!

Click to expand...

Which Denon AVR do you use?

I play 4.0 FLAC --> foobar2k --> laptop HDMI out --> Denon 4311CI HDMI in

AVR indicators show 4 channels as input, speaker output is from L, R, SL, SR of a 5.1 system. (with bass routed correctly to the .1 subwoofer due to AVR bass management)

IOW it works ....

ssully said:

Which Denon AVR do you use?

I play 4.0 FLAC --> foobar2k --> laptop HDMI out --> Denon 4311CI HDMI in

AVR indicators show 4 channels as input, speaker output is from L, R, SL, SR of a 5.1 system. (with bass routed correctly to the .1 subwoofer due to AVR bass management)

IOW it works ....

Click to expand...

Denon AVR X7200WA with latest firmware. It's a fairly new model with Atmos and DTS:X. I asked the local Denon guys here in Melbourne for a fix over 12 months ago. So far none of the updates have fixed 4.0. It's always stereo out (fronts only, no downmixing quad).

I have a Pioneer SC-97

Everytime I play a quad mix like Pink Floyd, etc my Oppo and Powerdvd send the signal correctly to the receiver, the pioneer lights up 4.0 channel on the front but everytime outputs to 7.1 speakers (this is how many speakers I have hooked up, besides atmos).

My receiver is set to 7.1 speaker configuration but I feel I shouldn't have to change my speaker configuration everytime to match my input, it should be the other way around and my receiver should just output EXACTLY what is input AUTOMATICALLY.

Can anyone tell me me why my receiver won't do that?

HomerJAU said:

Denon AVR X7200WA with latest firmware. It's a fairly new model with Atmos and DTS:X. I asked the local Denon guys here in Melbourne for a fix over 12 months ago. So far none of the updates have fixed 4.0. It's always stereo out (fronts only, no downmixing quad).

Click to expand...

Hmm... Denon and Marantz are the same company, and my AV7005 has Atmos as well, but I have never played any Quad material through HDMI or using the AV7005 DACs. For multi-channel discs it's the Oppo, and its 7.1 discrete outputs. For LPs, or matrix CDs, it's still the 7.1 inputs on the Marantz, but through an external SQ or CD-4 decoder.

I also have a media PC with a pretty good sound card, but it's connected by SPDIF currently, so I think it's all Dolby Digital for multichannel there. It does have 7.1 analog outputs as well, but with just the one set of 7.1 inputs on the Marantz, it's not practical to also use them for the PC.

I had been planning to convert some of my Quad LPs into some sort of digital format. I may try FLAC 4.0 to see how that works with the Marantz...

proufo said:

There is a place here in QQ where there are many manuals, including the one for the Lafayette. Don't know where, don't know when (yes, WMAgain has degenerated into an earworm).

Click to expand...

Not sure if I found the place you were talking about, but I did find a link to where someone had uploaded a scanned SQ-W user manual. Thanks.

salsdali said:

I have a Pioneer SC-97

Everytime I play a quad mix like Pink Floyd, etc my Oppo and Powerdvd send the signal correctly to the receiver, the pioneer lights up 4.0 channel on the front but everytime outputs to 7.1 speakers (this is how many speakers I have hooked up, besides atmos).

My receiver is set to 7.1 speaker configuration but I feel I shouldn't have to change my speaker configuration everytime to match my input, it should be the other way around and my receiver should just output EXACTLY what is input AUTOMATICALLY.

Can anyone tell me me why my receiver won't do that?

Click to expand...

It seems like your AVR has upmixing set to automatic .

If there's a 'direct' mode, try that. Sometimes you have to dig deep into the owner's manuals too.