External DAC for laptop: recommendations?

For six months or so, I've had a cheap Toshiba laptop (with both an external hard drive and a network drive) hooked up to my AVR for playing multi-channel and hi-res digital files with Foobar. (I've been using an HDMI connection, both in order to bypass the sound card and so that I could project the laptop screen onto my TV screen. And of course there are no analog outs on the laptop.) I like this setup--it's compact and convenient--but I've noticed that if I burn an ISO to disk or transfer a FLAC file to a USB drive and play it on my Oppo 103, it almost always sounds better than it does via Foobar over the laptop--no doubt because the Oppo's DAC is a whole lot better than the Toshiba's.

I've been looking into inexpensive outboard DACs such as the Dragonfly, but so far I'm not finding one that has HDMI throughput. All the budget laptop DACs seem to be oriented towards stereo headphone listening. Any recommendations?

humprof said:

For six months or so, I've had a cheap Toshiba laptop (with both an external hard drive and a network drive) hooked up to my AVR for playing multi-channel and hi-res digital files with Foobar. (I've been using an HDMI connection, both in order to bypass the sound card and so that I could project the laptop screen onto my TV screen. And of course there are no analog outs on the laptop.) I like this setup--it's compact and convenient--but I've noticed that if I burn an ISO to disk or transfer a FLAC file to a USB drive and play it on my Oppo 103, it almost always sounds better than it does via Foobar over the laptop--no doubt because the Oppo's DAC is a whole lot better than the Toshiba's.

I've been looking into inexpensive outboard DACs such as the Dragonfly, but so far I'm not finding one that has HDMI throughput. All the budget laptop DACs seem to be oriented towards stereo headphone listening. Any recommendations?

Click to expand...

If your sending it over HDMI, the laptops DAC's are not being used; it's still all digital and your receiver's DAC's are doing the decoding. If you're using 5.1 analog out from your Oppo, the difference you perceive could be b/c the Oppo has better DAC's than your AVR. If you're using hdmi for both Oppo and laptop, you're using the AVR's DAC's for both- theoretically, there should be no difference. But what are you using as a player in the laptop? That could be doing something to the signal.

I'd suggest using the hdmi input on the Oppo from your laptop and see how that sounds.

ProgRules said:

If your sending it over HDMI, the laptops DAC's are not being used; it's still all digital and your receiver's DAC's are doing the decoding. If you're using 5.1 analog out from your Oppo, the difference you perceive could be b/c the Oppo has better DAC's than your AVR. If you're using hdmi for both Oppo and laptop, you're using the AVR's DAC's for both- theoretically, there should be no difference. But what are you using as a player in the laptop? That could be doing something to the signal.

I'd suggest using the hdmi input on the Oppo from your laptop and see how that sounds.

Click to expand...

Interesting; thanks for weighing in. I didn't realize that using HDMI would bypass the laptop's DAC. The Oppo is also connected to the AVR via HDMI. Maybe it's all in my head, or maybe it's a function of the EQ curve I've set up for Foobar. I'll try routing the laptop through the Oppo via HDMI and see what that does.

Well, if you're applying EQ, then that will change the sound (if it didn't, the EQ wouldn't be doing anything). So that is at least part of, if not all of the difference you're hearing.

Any type of digital connection from a source will bypass that source's DAC's (Digital to Analog Convertesr). There is no need to convert from digital to analog if you're sending the digital signal.

Here is what I'd suggest:

1- Defeat the EQ in foobar.
2- Hook up the hdmi from laptop to hdmi input on Oppo.

Unless something else is processing the sound in the laptop, you should get the same sound from the same files, whether played through foobar or on a disc in the Oppo.

You didn't list your AVR (receiver), so the below comments aren't definitive, but represent the most likely scenario.

One of the biggest advantages of the Oppos are the high quality of their DAC's. They very likely are better than the DAC's in your AVR.

To use the DAC's in your Oppo, you must use the analog outputs, not hdmi. And you must also have 5.1 inputs on your AVR. If not, you will only be able to use the Oppo's DAC's for stereo. You can have both hdmi and analog connections hooked up at the same time and switch between them.

You will likely get better sound using the analog outputs; how significant that difference is will be subjective, but could be very significant to you on your system. The only way to know is to try.

The only thing you have to lose is time- and possibly some small expense if you don't have 6 RCA cables lying around (unless you believe that high dollar cables make a difference; some do, I firmly do not; I'd recommend monoprice.com for hi-quality inexpensive cables- of any kind).

1- Connect the 5.1 analog outputs from your Oppo to the 5.1 analog inputs on your AVR (if it has them); make sure to not to switch channels: L out -> L in; LS out to LS in; etc.

2- Go into the Oppo's setup menu and set-up parameters for analog. Your manual can guide you through this. Or come back here if you need help. And next post, please tell us what AVR you have and what speakers you use (don't need to know the model, just if you have 5 speakers plus a sub, e.g.).

3- make sure in the menu that you have selected the Oppo to send audio out over the analog connections.

4- choose the 5.1 analog input on your AVR. Put in your fave multi-channel disc or stream from your laptop (make sure to select the HDMI input on the Oppo.

Conversely, you could decide this is too much trouble and you prefer the ease of hdmi. And you're willing to accept that you're probably settling for less than the optimum your gear is capable of, but know it will still sound really good. The most difficult part will be setting up the 5.1 analog out in the Oppo; but if you don't do it in the Oppo, make sure it's done in the AVR. Most modern AVR's have a mic included that you use w/ an automated program in the AVR to do the setup for you- if needed, the manual will guide you through this.

I apologize if I'm giving you info you already know and seem like I'm talking down to you; that is not my intent. Based on your posts so far, I'm unclear on your level of knowledge. I'm erring on the side of too much info.

But one thing you did know- the best place to come for help. This is the friendliest, most helpful music forum on the net. And given that I've recently broken out of lurker status, I'm one of the least helpful in this great place. Others will be around to help out as well. So please remember that the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

Hey progRules, great response. Thank-you for taking time out to provide very usable and informative information.. On a slightly different note but maybe related,what do you know about the Oppo HA-2SE portable headphone amplifier and DAC?. And why would anyone need one? I use my ipods on a regular basis. I've read about this but wonder how much of a difference it would make. I wonder if it would be applicable to this situation as well. Thanks.

bossfan said:

Hey progRules, great response. Thank-you for taking time out to provide very usable and informative information.. On a slightly different note but maybe related,what do you know about the Oppo HA-2SE portable headphone amplifier and DAC?. And why would anyone need one? I use my ipods on a regular basis. I've read about this but wonder how much of a difference it would make. I wonder if it would be applicable to this situation as well. Thanks.

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Thanks for the kind words. As I said above, I'm usually in lurker mode and one of the least helpful on this excellent site- but I've been grounded w/ a nasty cold/flu and so I've popped my head up.

I know nothing specific about that particular product. I'm far from an expert on Oppo (mine is an ancient DV981 I got used); most of the knowledge I have comes from reading posts of people here (and on SHF) whose knowledge greatly exceeds mine. I also have no experience w/ hi-end headphones, phone amps or outboard DAC's. I've picked up some info from reading- just enough to be dangerous. I will tell you I'm a music lover (esp. a surround music lover) and most definitely not an audiophile. I have a meager system, a terribly compromised listening room and old. abused ears. And I enjoy the hell outta my music.

I am a skeptic re: most things hi-end. There are certainly gains to be made, but in my book, the laws of diminishing returns kicks in fairly quick. This is undoubtedly related to my limited finances.

For me and my system, outboard DAC's are above the line of diminishing returns. I'm perfectly happy w/ the DAC's in my AVR. If you're talking about one for 'phones, I'd suggest using that money to get a better portable player that will have good DAC's. Unless you wanted to use it for multiple apps (Ipod, laptop, ipad, etc.).

But these are merely my personal preferences and opinions (I suggest you seek out others; the more the better). It's generally better to get info from people who've actually used the type of product you're considering- as long as you keep possible bias in mind. My phones are lo-end Sennheiser HD 328s. I also have a pair of Senn PX 100s portables I use w/ my ancient 60gb Ipod. I find both my AVR and the pod drives them both very well. And I am happy with the sound of them both. Hell, I can even be happy if I have to use the buds that came with them, which I keep in my car in case I forget the PXs. Far from ideal, but I deal.

Where you might want to draw the line for any of these things will be different than me. We all decide where the "value zone" is. Getting as much info as possible helps make your choices more effective. But they remain your choices.

Just remember that one choice is how you approach this hobby. Upgrading can be a fun, entertaining, learning process. It can also get in the way of the music. There is a rabbit hole there of which to be aware. (!!!What a poet- and don;t I know it) My advice: if you're enjoying what you're hearing now, forget about whether it can be better- it def can, but why? If you feel something is missing in your enjoyment, identify what that is and seek out info and help to solve what's missing. IOW, upgrade for a specific need, not seeking some elusive "better sound." That way lies madness.

I feel that too much focus on SQ actually detracts from my enjoyment of the music- and to me, that's what it's all about. Others feel differently: audiophiles feel the pursuit of the most accurate sound is the end in itself. That would be the purest definition, but of course there are degrees. In the end, it's just an enjoyable hobby and we all have different ways of enjoying it.

I say, get your sound to an acceptable level and then spend your money on software, not hardware. But some have plenty to do both.

Just my opinions obviously. Everything's subjective, and audio is one of the greatest examples of that. So- whatever you choose will be exactly right- for you. Just have fun doing it. Even if you mess up, that's when you learn the most.

I don't think this is related to the OP. I'd suggest in the future if you have a question, start your own thread; it might get you more responses.

Have a good one and Go Eagles!

Thanks for making time for such a thoughtful and detailed response, ProgRules; I really appreciate it.

ProgRules said:

Well, if you're applying EQ, then that will change the sound (if it didn't, the EQ wouldn't be doing anything). So that is at least part of, if not all of the difference you're hearing.

Click to expand...

Yeah...I knew that my EQ adjustments were muddying the waters here. But using Foobar on this laptop with EQ off sounded even worse--or so I imagined, anyway--which is why I fooled around with it in the first place.

Any type of digital connection from a source will bypass that source's DAC's (Digital to Analog Convertesr). There is no need to convert from digital to analog if you're sending the digital signal.

Click to expand...

That makes perfect sense.

My AVR is a Marantz NR1607, which sadly has no analog inputs. (It has other virtues: slim profile, runs cool.) I think it has a decent DAC, though I don't know how it compares with the Oppo 103's. (My speakers are 4 garden-variety in-wall Polks plus a center & sub.) At any rate, I guess this means both sources are using the Marantz's DAC, which in principle means that if I turn off EQ in Foobar, they should sound the same.

You will likely get better sound using the analog outputs; how significant that difference is will be subjective, but could be very significant to you on your system. The only way to know is to try.

Click to expand...

On my old system--now a "backup" system in my office--I had to go analog, since that AVR (an Onkyo TX-SR605) wouldn't process MCh sound over HDMI. I suppose I could easily test your suggestion by running my laptop through that system's Oppo--a DV980H--assuming it has an HDMI in.

Or I could just live with things as they are!

humprof said:

Thanks for making time for such a thoughtful and detailed response, ProgRules; I really appreciate it.



Yeah...I knew that my EQ adjustments were muddying the waters here. But using Foobar on this laptop with EQ off sounded even worse--or so I imagined, anyway--which is why I fooled around with it in the first place.



That makes perfect sense.

My AVR is a Marantz NR1607, which sadly has no analog inputs. (It has other virtues: slim profile, runs cool.) I think it has a decent DAC, though I don't know how it compares with the Oppo 103's. (My speakers are 4 garden-variety in-wall Polks plus a center & sub.) At any rate, I guess this means both sources are using the Marantz's DAC, which in principle means that if I turn off EQ in Foobar, they should sound the same.



On my old system--now a "backup" system in my office--I had to go analog, since that AVR (an Onkyo TX-SR605) wouldn't process MCh sound over HDMI. I suppose I could easily test your suggestion by running my laptop through that system's Oppo--a DV980H--assuming it has an HDMI in.

Or I could just live with things as they are!

Click to expand...

You're welcome humanities professor, I assume? You caught me at a good time.

Sounds like you've got everything down now. That's a sweet AVR, much nicer than my old Denon; you can even do Atmos and DTS:X, if you really wanna go crazy. I'd have no DAC concerns whatsoever. Are the Oppos' slightly better? Sure, but any audible difference wouldn't be worth worrying about. I was just trying to present the best case scenario- main thing was connecting the laptop to the oppo, to eliminate one variable in the sound differential equation.

The only concern I see is if you turn EQ off on the laptop and it still sounds different/worse. That would need some trouble-shooting beyond my expertise. But others here can be of help.

DV980 wouldn't have hdmi in; my 981 doesn't. Just output. But again, unless you were just curious, not worth a fret.

And whether you live with the way things are now or not, hopefully you'll soon find that sweet spot where everything works right and you can just enjoy. Few things in life have brought me as much pleasure as music.

Cheers :brew

Thanks Progrules. Your thinking is exactly like mine - I too am underfunded and a little frugal too.. Software first over hardware. Don't want to takeover discussion, so I'll leave it at that... Just thought portable Oppo DAC might be a solution. Thanks

ProgRules said:

Few things in life have brought me as much pleasure as music.

Click to expand...

Amen to that. And for what it's worth, I'm with you on the law of diminishing returns, too. I generally like the way my system sounds right now. If I can make some easy tweaks to get the laptop sounding better, then I'll do it. But I'd rather spend money on more music than on more expensive hardware!

Cheers to you, too.

humprof said:

For six months or so, I've had a cheap Toshiba laptop (with both an external hard drive and a network drive) hooked up to my AVR for playing multi-channel and hi-res digital files with Foobar. (I've been using an HDMI connection, both in order to bypass the sound card and so that I could project the laptop screen onto my TV screen. And of course there are no analog outs on the laptop.) I like this setup--it's compact and convenient--but I've noticed that if I burn an ISO to disk or transfer a FLAC file to a USB drive and play it on my Oppo 103, it almost always sounds better than it does via Foobar over the laptop--no doubt because the Oppo's DAC is a whole lot better than the Toshiba's.

Click to expand...

I highly doubt that's the reason.

Look for differences in output level, first.

Btw, are you using the WASAPI plugin with foobar? That's the only way (apart from using ASIO instead) to guarantee a bit-perfect digital output stream to your AVR (which is where the DAC that does D/A actually lives, in your setup).

humprof said:

Interesting; thanks for weighing in. I didn't realize that using HDMI would bypass the laptop's DAC. The Oppo is also connected to the AVR via HDMI. Maybe it's all in my head, or maybe it's a function of the EQ curve I've set up for Foobar. I'll try routing the laptop through the Oppo via HDMI and see what that does.

Click to expand...

um, yeah. If they have different EQ *on purpose*, there's your culprit right there.

ProgRules said:

Any type of digital connection from a source will bypass that source's DAC's (Digital to Analog Convertesr). There is no need to convert from digital to analog if you're sending the digital signal.

Click to expand...

It may still be resampled by the laptop's (Windows) onboard sound hardware/software.

The easy way to test if your computer is doing *anything* to the signal is to start with a 'raw' .ac3 (Dolby) or .dts file, ripped from a disc, and send it via your digital connection (HDMI in this case) to the AVR for decoding. If the output isn't bit-perfect -- i.e., untouched -- then the AVR will produce white noise. that means something -- resampling or DSP by Windows, or some EQ or other DSP at work within foobar, including not having the 'volume' set to maximum -- is messing with the bitstream. If it's bit-perfect, you will hear music. To bypass the Windows sound architecture with foobar you use a WASAPI (or ASIO) plugin and select it in Preferences-->Playback--Output.

ssully said:

I highly doubt that's the reason.

Look for differences in output level, first.

Btw, are you using the WASAPI plugin with foobar? That's the only way (apart from using ASIO instead) to guarantee a bit-perfect digital output stream to your AVR (which is where the DAC that does D/A actually lives, in your setup).

Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I've since realized that my original query was based on at least one faulty premise. And as soon as I mentioned the EQ changes I'd applied, I figured that at least a few people would be smacking their foreheads. (In my defense, though, I made those EQ tweaks in an effort to ameliorate what I was already perceiving as inferior sound...)

Foobar output level is at 100%, and I thought I'd had the WASAPI component installed, but checking it just now, I didn't see it listed. (Don't know if it could have gotten vaporized somehow during an update, or if I was mistaken about having installed it in the first place.) But having added it, I'm now faced with a baffling array of output choices, including:

• DS: 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)
• DSD : WASAPI (event) : 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)
• DSD : WASAPI (push) : 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)
• WASAPI (event) : 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)
• WASAPI (event) : 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)

etc.

Prior to this, my first choice was simply "1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)"

Any wisdom to offer?

humprof said:

Thanks for the replies and suggestions. I've since realized that my original query was based on at least one faulty premise. And as soon as I mentioned the EQ changes I'd applied, I figured that at least a few people would be smacking their foreheads. (In my defense, though, I made those EQ tweaks in an effort to ameliorate what I was already perceiving as inferior sound...)

Foobar output level is at 100%, and I thought I'd had the WASAPI component installed, but checking it just now, I didn't see it listed. (Don't know if it could have gotten vaporized somehow during an update, or if I was mistaken about having installed it in the first place.) But having added it, I'm now faced with a baffling array of output choices, including:

• DS: 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)
• DSD : WASAPI (event) : 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)
• DSD : WASAPI (push) : 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)
• WASAPI (event) : 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)
• WASAPI (event) : 1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)

etc.

Click to expand...

Either of these (in bold) should do. [I suspect one actually says (push), not two saying (event). I use event, but not all setups support it]

I suspect the DSD options are just there because you have a foobar DSD plugin installed too. I do too ,but I never use it for normal playback, I only use it for converting DSD files to PCM files.

Prior to this, my first choice was simply "1 - marantz-AVR (AMD High Definition Audio Device)"

Click to expand...

That choice is basically routing the signal through your laptop's audio device (integrated into an AMD graphics card, I'm guessing). Any settings/configuration/limitation related to that device will impact the signal. Choosing WASAPI bypasses it. It is 'exclusive' so that only foobar's own setting will affect the audio (so, turn off foobar's EQ and replaygain etc if you want/need output to be bit-perfect).

Btw you didn't mention if you used replaygain or not, if so, that too would certainly impact your perception of difference between one source and another.

ssully said:

Either of these (in bold) should do. [I suspect one actually says (push), not two saying (event). I use event, but not all setups support it]

Click to expand...

Yep: "(push)." (Copied & pasted--and forgot to edit.)

ssully said:

That choice is basically routing the signal through your laptop's audio device (integrated into an AMD graphics card, I'm guessing). Any settings/configuration/limitation related to that device will impact the signal. Choosing WASAPI bypasses it. It is 'exclusive' so that only foobar's own setting will affect the audio (so, turn off foobar's EQ and replaygain etc if you want/need output to be bit-perfect).

Click to expand...

No replay gain, but I'll disable EQ--and look forward to the improved sound. Really brilliant. Thanks very much!

humprof said:

Yep: "(push)." (Copied & pasted--and forgot to edit.)



No replay gain, but I'll disable EQ--and look forward to the improved sound. Really brilliant. Thanks very much!

Click to expand...

FWIW, I'm not promising improved sound. If you turn off EQ the sound will be different. The EQ wasn't improving *foobar's* sound in any case -- foobar does not have a sound of its own. Your soundcard's setting might have been affecting the sound, and bypassing with WASAPI would nullify that. Or you could just go in to your AMD card's settings and turn off any effects that might be on (click the little speaker icon in your windows desktop, -->Playback devices -->Speakers (or however the AMD device is called)-->Configure, and continue to use the AMD device output instead of WASAPI

ssully said:

FWIW, I'm not promising improved sound. If you turn off EQ the sound will be different. The EQ wasn't improving *foobar's* sound in any case -- foobar does not have a sound of its own. Your soundcard's setting might have been affecting the sound, and bypassing with WASAPI would nullify that. Or you could just go in to your AMD card's settings and turn off any effects that might be on, and continue to use the AMD device output instead of WASAPI

Click to expand...

Right. (I won't hold you responsible!) At least this way I'll be able to compare apples and apples when I do an A-B test pitting the Oppo against foobar. The discussion at Hydrogen Audio also claims that quality gains from bypassing Windows are "questionable at best." So I've been warned.

But even if I end up reverting to the status quo ante, I've learned more about foobar as a result of all this. Just this morning, for example, in an effort to get WASAPI to recognize the 384 kHz FLACs that foobar's converter had made from my SACD ISOs, I discovered the SoX resampler plugin. Some days you learn more than one new thing. Thanks again.

humprof said:

Right. (I won't hold you responsible!) At least this way I'll be able to compare apples and apples when I do an A-B test pitting the Oppo against foobar. The discussion at Hydrogen Audio also claims that quality gains from bypassing Windows are "questionable at best." So I've been warned.

But even if I end up reverting to the status quo ante, I've learned more about foobar as a result of all this. Just this morning, for example, in an effort to get WASAPI to recognize the 384 kHz FLACs that foobar's converter had made from my SACD ISOs, I discovered the SoX resampler plugin. Some days you learn more than one new thing. Thanks again.

Click to expand...

You're on the right track. For *true-er* apples to oranges you also have to make sure the Oppo is outputting 'clean' signal (raw output, no DSP) and that the two inputs on your AVR have the same DSP settings. For *true-est* apples to oranges after all that, you have to compare the sound of the two in a blind way. As I'm sure the HA folk will remind you.

(And btw the HA wiki says : "Quality gains are questionable at best. In most cases the differences are irrelevant unless the output is digitally captured back and needs to be bit-exact for further processing." Passing raw .dts and .ac3 files to the AVR, as I do, falls under the 'needs to be bit exact for further processing' category.)

Humprof , I am curious to know if you resolved your differences in sound.