Comparing the Dynamic Range of SACDs, LPs and Digital Downloads

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Intervention records ”sonic goal is that each record we do must be the single definitive, final version of that album, the one real music lovers will seek out”. Kevin Gray mastered, how is it? I am a bit curious, a competitor to MFSL maybe which I believe play around too much with brightness on some releases.


I am listening to it right now...this is not bright at all...plenty of dynamic range...this is 70's music done the right way(y)...of course it's dated.. but in a good way...that 70's sound...this is an excellent recording..I highly recommend this title..it's good to hear Gerry Rafferty again...love his voice...makes me want to hear Baker Street...love that song...but hearing "stuck in the middle" on this disc was cool:cool:
 
Most of the time vinyl will always have more Dynamic Range than other formats...it's a trade off for the crackles and pops:)

Actually that's not true at all.

Digital formats, including DSD, have 30db more dynamic range than a Vinyl LP.
That's particularly noticeable as you get closer to the label of an LP where the dynamics are compromised further.

It also explains the recent interest in 15 inch per second (15ips) Analog Tape copies of classic remastered albums.
An Analog Tape like that also sounds quite a bit better than an LP.
 
Actually that's not true at all.

Digital formats, including DSD, have 30db more dynamic range than a Vinyl LP.
That's particularly noticeable as you get closer to the label of an LP where the dynamics are compromised further.

It also explains the recent interest in 15 inch per second (15ips) Analog Tape copies of classic remastered albums.
An Analog Tape like that also sounds quite a bit better than an LP.

Sometimes I forget who my audience is on here...my statement is at least partially true...I used the qualifier "most of the time"...and to be candid I never consider tapes...but on the forum we do still have users..but not exactly a mainstream format..but of course Acoustic Sounds is creating a niche market for them...and you are speaking about digital formats that are in a pure unaltered state..not mastered...where I was talking about the contemporary marketplace offerings...
 
Sometimes I forget who my audience is on here...my statement is at least partially true...I used the qualifier "most of the time"

I'm afraid it isn't "partially true, most of the time".
LPs are limited in their dynamic range. Compared to Analog Tape and Digital formats.

Ask a mastering engineer that creates LPs what they have to do to the music to ready it for LP release.
It's quite interesting.... :)
 
I'm afraid it isn't "partially true".
LPs are limited in their dynamic range. Compared to Analog Tape and Digital formats.

Ask a mastering engineer that creates LPs what they have to do to the music to ready it for LP release.
It's quite interesting.... :)


If you are saying that LP's NEVER have better DNR numbers..why are there so many examples of just that..with downloads..SACD's..and other formats..even with the built in limitations of LP's why are they better in a lot of cases...which I feel is due to mastering of downloads and SACD's..and CDs..
 
Do LPs "have more dynamic range than other formats"?
No.

Do LPs sound good? Or in some cases do listeners prefer the sound of an LP edition of an album to other editions released in other formats (CD, Analog Tape, SACD, DVD Audio, BD Audio, etc.)?
Yes.

LPs can sound good. They do bring a "warmth" to the music that many listeners enjoy.
And the processing used to get the music from the original recording to fit on an LP can also bring musical benefits.

That's part of the fun and enjoyment in listening to music in general.
And to an album in multiple formats. The musical flavors can be similar - or quite different.

As they say on the Internet, YMMV (your mileage may vary). :)
 
I am listening to it right now...this is not bright at all...plenty of dynamic range...this is 70's music done the right way(y)...of course it's dated.. but in a good way...that 70's sound...this is an excellent recording..I highly recommend this title..it's good to hear Gerry Rafferty again...love his voice...makes me want to hear Baker Street...love that song...but hearing "stuck in the middle" on this disc was cool:cool:

My wife and I met in college, and Baker Street was one of “our songs” at that time. Love it!
 
bmoura;362470[B said:
]Do LPs "have more dynamic range than other formats"? [/B]
No.

Do LPs sound good? Or in some cases do listeners prefer the sound of an LP edition of an album to other editions released in other formats (CD, Analog Tape, SACD, DVD Audio, BD Audio, etc.)?
Yes.

LPs can sound good. They do bring a "warmth" to the music that many listeners enjoy.
And the processing used to get the music from the original recording to fit on an LP can also bring musical benefits.

That's part of the fun and enjoyment in listening to music in general.
And to an album in multiple formats. The musical flavors can be similar - or quite different.

As they say on the Internet, YMMV (your mileage may vary). :)

My question is still the same..if LP's don't have more dynamic range please explain the many examples of just the opposite of what you are saying...you are giving the native(unaltered)state of those formats...not the real world application..
 
My wife and I met in college, and Baker Street was one of “our songs” at that time. Love it!

I don't have a specific memory..but that period in my life was filled with great times...and that song just struck a cord with me...for Rafferty it was a dark time..he had to spend 3 years without being in the music world..due to contract problems..and the last verse was a coming out for him...a release of sorts..it was his celebration moment..."when you wake up it's a new morning"..and this song was born in a friends flat on Baker Street..

[video=youtube;Fo6aKnRnBxM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo6aKnRnBxM[/video]
 
Purely in technical terms, LPs are inherently limited in terms of dynamic range vs, a digital format such as SACD. Not so for downloads as my experience is compression to save space kills off the potential. What LPs have and indeed any high quality analogue format has over digital is the analogue warm sound. Maybe it is just a less responsive less dynamic range that creates this sound, meaning what I consider good is actually just inaccurate Maybe so. But, I know what I like, and its an LP played through a high quality tube power amp.

Actually that's not true at all.

Digital formats, including DSD, have 30db more dynamic range than a Vinyl LP.
That's particularly noticeable as you get closer to the label of an LP where the dynamics are compromised further.

It also explains the recent interest in 15 inch per second (15ips) Analog Tape copies of classic remastered albums.
An Analog Tape like that also sounds quite a bit better than an LP.
 
Purely in technical terms, LPs are inherently limited in terms of dynamic range vs, a digital format such as SACD. Not so for downloads as my experience is compression to save space kills off the potential. What LPs have and indeed any high quality analogue format has over digital is the analogue warm sound. Maybe it is just a less responsive less dynamic range that creates this sound, meaning what I consider good is actually just inaccurate Maybe so. But, I know what I like, and its an LP played through a high quality tube power amp.

Yes in theory Brian's assertion is correct...but in the real world you aren't dealing with pure forms of the format...outside factors like mastering dilute the purity of formats like SACDs and downloads..and now the prevailing attitude is to make platforms for portable devices more accessible and that diminishes most of the digital formats even more...
 
These examples are more a factor of the way they mastered music in the 70's vs how music is mastered today.

You are correct...that is what I what I was talking about:)...the digital isn't in it's pure(native)state...in the real world modifications(mastering)are made..so the advantages of the digital format in dynamic range are mitigated in some of the digital formats like SACDs and CDs..
 
Clint was asking how one of my favorite titles: Van Morrison's Hymns to the Silence sounded as the DR numbers weren't that great. I always felt it sounded fine, but it sounds like Clint is more perceptive to poor DR numbers than myself. I've actually been learning quite a lot about DR by readings in our forum and some outside research, but need more to wrap my head around it all. So I took a careful listen to the Van album again last night on headphones and I did here some of what I'd call mid-to-low range muddiness on some tracks. It sounded to me like the culprit is how the bass guitar was recorded. It seemed to put more of a veil over the middle of the sound field with the outside instruments sounding clearer. So can this be due to the producer or mix engineer or the mastering? It seems to have been produced by Van himself. Regardless, could a new mastering of the album clean that aspect up more?

Here is a site I found (I don't know anything about the author) that put some of the more technical jargon, in a layman's terms for myself.

https://www.howtogeek.com/57903/htg-explains-how-does-dynamic-range-compression-work/
 
Clint was asking how one of my favorite titles: Van Morrison's Hymns to the Silence sounded as the DR numbers weren't that great. I always felt it sounded fine, but it sounds like Clint is more perceptive to poor DR numbers than myself. I've actually been learning quite a lot about DR by readings in our forum and some outside research, but need more to wrap my head around it all. So I took a careful listen to the Van album again last night on headphones and I did here some of what I'd call mid-to-low range muddiness on some tracks. It sounded to me like the culprit is how the bass guitar was recorded. It seemed to put more of a veil over the middle of the sound field with the outside instruments sounding clearer. So can this be due to the producer or mix engineer or the mastering? It seems to have been produced by Van himself. Regardless, could a new mastering of the album clean that aspect up more?

Here is a site I found (I don't know anything about the author) that put some of the more technical jargon, in a layman's terms for myself.

https://www.howtogeek.com/57903/htg-explains-how-does-dynamic-range-compression-work/


Pup...let me take a load off of your plate...when you say something is fine...I believe you....I trust you....you have credibility with me...you don't have to do a deep dive into DR...you will drive yourself crazy with a lot of different opinions and theories...especially when it comes to early issue CDs...sometimes the conditions and equipment were not in place to make superb recordings...the numbers on that CD title you mentioned weren't bad...I have a lot of recordings with those type of numbers and they sound "fine"....so just don't put too much emphasis on the numbers...they are a starting point for people like me...I'd rather hear a hiss in the background than overt sanitation(processing)..but with modern recordings when I see single digits.....I move on...
 
Pup...let me take a load off of your plate...when you say something is fine...I believe you....I trust you....you have credibility with me...you don't have to do a deep dive into DR...you will drive yourself crazy with a lot of different opinions and theories...especially when it comes to early issue CDs...sometimes the conditions and equipment were not in place to make superb recordings...the numbers on that CD title you mentioned weren't bad...I have a lot of recordings with those type of numbers and they sound "fine"....so just don't put too much emphasis on the numbers...they are a starting point for people like me...I'd rather hear a hiss in the background than overt sanitation(processing)..but with modern recordings when I see single digits.....I move on...

Yes I appreciate what your saying; but often I just listen for pure enjoyment to stuff I've heard many times. I have no problem learning more about what makes a title sound better than others, especially the same title newly mastered (for good or bad.) You've convinced me that the DR numbers is just a starting place for consideration. I was just hoping to open up new discussions on the subject because I truly want more knowledge in this area. Part of that discussion is how the instruments are recorded, mixed and mastered, as in the example the bass on the Van M. album. I would like to read more of your take on how that is all related.

A similar example tied into this (sorta) is what I had heard for years on the Traffic album: The Low Spark Of High Heeled Boys.
https://www.discogs.com/Traffic-The-Low-Spark-Of-High-Heeled-Boys/release/5503643
At various places in this recording I hear short drum bursts (maybe Floor Tom) that sound distorted, like they peaked out or a poorly tuned drum head that got bashed too hard. Turns out the drums are credited to Jim Gordon not Capaldi for what it's worth. So I recently picked up the MOFI gold disc and listened carefully. I do believe overall it sounds cleaner, but there is still some of that drum distortion present. Not a big deal for most folks, but it's always been a pet peeve of mine on this recording.

Also, have you had a chance to listen to the Jeff Beck There and Back? I do think that could use some remastering.

Ultimately, not trying to unload my plate of anything, just would like to expand the conversation if you and others are game?:)
 
I haven't listened to it yet..but you have to keep in mind that most of the time vinyl will always have more Dynamic Range than other formats...it's a trade off for the crackles and pops:)

I'm afraid it isn't "partially true, most of the time".
LPs are limited in their dynamic range. Compared to Analog Tape and Digital formats.

Ask a mastering engineer that creates LPs what they have to do to the music to ready it for LP release.
It's quite interesting.... :)

This is an interesting thread which I seemed to have missed at its inception a year and a half ago. During the days of vinyl, I used this handy device along with its tethered remote to enhance the listening experience:

dbx.jpg



I found that I needed less expansion with most CD's compared to their vinyl counterparts...which seemed to indicate that CD's as a whole had more dynamic range. When I converted back to surround sound with a 7.1 Lexicon CP-1 processor, I abandoned the dbx expander because I was going to need four of them! Too bad as I would have really enjoyed watching 4 sets of light bars (but not the associated drained bank account.)
 
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