HiRez Poll Young, Neil - HARVEST [DVD-A]

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Rate the DVD-A of Neil Young - HARVEST


  • Total voters
    113
Here's in depth descriptions of how Harvest was recorded...

http://www.bmi.com/news/entry/Tips_from_the_Top_The_Making_of_Neil_Youngs_Harvest

and some tech about how the 5.1 mix was done

http://www.mixonline.com/news/profiles/elliot-mazer/372803

Thanks for all that excellent background info.

My "problem" with the surround mixing approach they took is that it doesn't lend itself too well to a 5.1 setup, imho.. so I tried to go for something much more conventional (and to my ears more balanced) in rejigging it and I'm not even sure I like that any better its just different.. anyway not enough hours in the day to bugger about with an album I don't play much, so we move on :)
 
FYI

Here are the DR statistics of the "corrected" mch album. Based on the ARMS values the fronts are now quite balanced unlike the rears. I'd boost the SR channel with 2-3 dB but that would cause clipping. Btw, this album has excellent dynamics.

foobar2000 1.1.15 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2016-08-24 11:41:38

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Statistics for: 01-
Number of samples: 224244240
Duration: 38:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Channel 1 (FL) Channel 2 (FR) Channel 3 (C) Channel 4 (LFE) Channel 5 (SL) Channel 6 (SR)

Peak Value: 0.00 dB --- -0.56 dB --- -2.38 dB --- -0.69 dB --- -0.37 dB --- -0.05 dB
Avg RMS: -18.39 dB --- -19.09 dB --- -23.20 dB --- -22.23 dB --- -20.97 dB --- -23.55 dB
DR channel: 15.03 dB --- 14.68 dB --- 16.16 dB --- 17.43 dB --- 16.74 dB --- 18.01 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Official DR Value: DR16

Samplerate: 96000 Hz
Channels: 6
Bits per sample: 24
Bitrate: 7699 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================================================
 
FYI

Here are the DR statistics of the "corrected" mch album. Based on the ARMS values the fronts are now quite balanced unlike the rears. I'd boost the SR channel with 2-3 dB but that would cause clipping. Btw, this album has excellent dynamics.

"...I said DR..
Is there nothing I can take?
I said DR,
To correct the mix mistakes?
Now let me get this straight,
You take the rears and the fronts
And you mix em all together,
You take the centre and the LFE,
You mix em both up.."

:ugham:
 
Here's a description of Elliot Mazur's studio where the Nashville tracks were recorded, from in Sam Inglis's book about Harvest. Emphasis mine.

Mazur: Quad [the name of the studio] was a two-story Victorian-era house. The control room was the porch, the playing rooms were the living room and the dining room which were connected by sliding doors. The living room had wood panels and was [acoustically] lively, the dining room was padded. Neil sat between the rooms in the doorway. Kenny [drummer] was in the living room to his left and the rest were to his right -- bass, steel, piano, second guitar, banjo.

Inglis also writes:

Although each instrument had its own microphone and would have its own track on the 16-track recorder, it meant there was no was of maintaining absolute isolation. The sound of drums was bound to creep on to everything, while it would be impossible to maintain complete aural separation between all the instruments crammed into the dining room. Elliot Mazur knew that this might lead to trouble at the mixing stage, but it was the only way to capture a true live performance: "The leakage gave the record character and we knew we were not going to replace anything."
 
Meant to post earlier, thanks much for the detailed info, ssully!
To me it's fascinating. I may need to get that book.

I'm well aware that most everyone here hates the surround mix on this album but I look at it this way:
I would much rather have Harvest than the best surround mix in the galaxy of 99% of the music out there.
 
Here's a description of Elliot Mazur's studio where the Nashville tracks were recorded, from in Sam Inglis's book about Harvest. Emphasis mine.



Inglis also writes:

SOUNDS like it was recorded and mixed on a POT farm during HARVESTING season with someone bogarting the joint and blowing smoke in yer face:nuke

SURELY, a properly remixed BD~A in 5.1 is in order for one of Neil's truly LANDMARK albums!

And YES, say NO to PoNO!
 
This is my first post here, but I wanted to chime in on this since I recently acquired this disc. I'm still deciding on my vote on the mix though. I ordered this disc with some hesitation due to the claims that the DVD was authored incorrectly.

Regarding the channel authoring error claims that haven been made for this disc here and in this other thread: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...2540-Futzing-with-the-HARVEST-DVD-Audio/page3 (was this excised from this thread at some point and moved to its own thread?), I think the mix you hear on the released DVD-Audio disc is what was intended.

If you compare the original stereo mix to the 5.1 mixes, you'll notice there is some consistency in instrument placement in the 5.1 mix that matches the original stereo mix, but spreads it across the front and back channels. I compared the stereo mix on the dvd as well as the original vinyl to the 5.1 mix on a few songs for the following:

- "Out on the Weekend" - The drums are panned slightly to the left and the acoustic guitar is panned on the right on the stereo version. The 5.1 mix also has the drums panned to the left front and rear channel and the acoustic guitar panned to the right front and rear channels.

- "Harvest" - The drums are panned more in the left channel, with guitar and piano on the right in the original stereo mix. The 5.1 mix mirrors this as well, with the drums on the left front and rear channels, and the acoustic guitar and piano in the right front and rear channels.

- "Heart of Gold" - The drums and pedal steel are panned mostly in the left channel with the acoustic guitar with harmonica panned slightly right. The 5.1 mix has the drums and pedal steel panned the left front and rear channels. The acoustic guitar and harmonica are panned to the right front and rear channels.

- "Needle and the Damage Done" - The audience is in the back left and right channels, where they should be (not in the front channels), in the 5.1 mix.

If you start moving any of these channels around then you mess with the intended 5.1 placement mirroring the original stereo mix.

Also, there was a claim that you can hear all sorts of mix elements other than just bass in the sub channel when it's isolated, proving that the disc was authored incorrectly. If you read the Elliot Mazer article that was linked a few posts up, you'll see that Mazer mixes with the sub channel off at first and then later routes what ever he feels needs to have some bass represented in the mix to the sub: "If you rely on the subwoofer for most of your low-frequency information, your final mix will be bass-light on systems that do not have subwoofers, so I turn the subwoofer off when I am doing my basic mix. When this mix starts to sound like music, I turn on the subwoofer and blend in an appropriate amount from various instruments."
 
Well, I was totally wrong about this disc. After further listening there is definitely a mixing/authoring error on the released surround mix. I ripped each channel into individual wave files for "Out on the Weekend" last night, with DVD-Audio Extractor. I loaded it into Audacity and noticed that the front left and right channels are mainly reverb of the rest of the instruments. These channels should clearly be the surround channels since Neil's voice is coming from the center channel and back two channels on the released mix. For the reverb to sound natural you need to swap the back two channels with the front channels, i.e. Left Surround should now be Front Left, and Right Surround Should be Right Front. This maintains the instrument spread of the original stereo mix, but now the front channels, that are mainly reverb, are now in the back. I didn't try it with the rest of the album tracks, so I'm not sure how many tracks have the channels swapped.

I realize this was mentioned previously in the thread, and it's old news, but just confirming that I'm hearing the same thing. :)

This is my first post here, but I wanted to chime in on this since I recently acquired this disc. I'm still deciding on my vote on the mix though. I ordered this disc with some hesitation due to the claims that the DVD was authored incorrectly.

Regarding the channel authoring error claims that haven been made for this disc here and in this other thread: https://www.quadraphonicquad.com/fo...2540-Futzing-with-the-HARVEST-DVD-Audio/page3 (was this excised from this thread at some point and moved to its own thread?), I think the mix you hear on the released DVD-Audio disc is what was intended.

If you compare the original stereo mix to the 5.1 mixes, you'll notice there is some consistency in instrument placement in the 5.1 mix that matches the original stereo mix, but spreads it across the front and back channels. I compared the stereo mix on the dvd as well as the original vinyl to the 5.1 mix on a few songs for the following:

- "Out on the Weekend" - The drums are panned slightly to the left and the acoustic guitar is panned on the right on the stereo version. The 5.1 mix also has the drums panned to the left front and rear channel and the acoustic guitar panned to the right front and rear channels.

- "Harvest" - The drums are panned more in the left channel, with guitar and piano on the right in the original stereo mix. The 5.1 mix mirrors this as well, with the drums on the left front and rear channels, and the acoustic guitar and piano in the right front and rear channels.

- "Heart of Gold" - The drums and pedal steel are panned mostly in the left channel with the acoustic guitar with harmonica panned slightly right. The 5.1 mix has the drums and pedal steel panned the left front and rear channels. The acoustic guitar and harmonica are panned to the right front and rear channels.

- "Needle and the Damage Done" - The audience is in the back left and right channels, where they should be (not in the front channels), in the 5.1 mix.

If you start moving any of these channels around then you mess with the intended 5.1 placement mirroring the original stereo mix.

Also, there was a claim that you can hear all sorts of mix elements other than just bass in the sub channel when it's isolated, proving that the disc was authored incorrectly. If you read the Elliot Mazer article that was linked a few posts up, you'll see that Mazer mixes with the sub channel off at first and then later routes what ever he feels needs to have some bass represented in the mix to the sub: "If you rely on the subwoofer for most of your low-frequency information, your final mix will be bass-light on systems that do not have subwoofers, so I turn the subwoofer off when I am doing my basic mix. When this mix starts to sound like music, I turn on the subwoofer and blend in an appropriate amount from various instruments."
 
Sorry to be a poser here. I haven't heard this mix, but I will say that the new Neil box set for this album, one of the best of all time, really missed the mark. There is already a surround mix. Why not release it on this? Why not on blu ray? This is a missed opportunity. C'mon, Neil.
 
Yes, they could have corrected the mistakes (if they are mistakes, which I believe they are), and mixed the outtakes in 5.1 as well. Maybe Neil does not think his stuff lends itself so well to surround? There are no other albums of his that got that treatment.
 
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I agree the stereo mix is far superior - this is the only 5.1 disc I have (among many) where I just can't listen to the surround mix - it's too strange and unnatural for me and clearly there was no quality assurance done for the release. The music is great of course.
 
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