Deep Purple - MACHINE HEAD (UK - Quad Mix) [SACD]

[Disclord]

The only audio bonus track on DVD-A is Blind Man that would be watermarked. Since the track was also used on the 2003 SACD there is a non-watermarked version available. There is no reason tho think that the 2011 SACD is watermarked in any way; it would be out of spec for SACD.

Again the other two "bonus" tracks on the DVD-A are VIDEO and watermarking doesn't apply whatsoever.

The SACD spec specifically prohibits watermarking? I recall an interview with Sony engineers - in Stereophile I think - where they mention that Watermarking isn't required or prohibited - it's up to the individual record companies but they (Sony) felt that SACD's various methods used to prevent copying made watermarking a non-issue. Were the spec's changed to prohibit watermarking?

[timbre4]

Whatever. I'd never seen SACD and watermarking in the same sentence nor heard any mention of it. I never associated the two ideas based on that.

[Green]

I have the small hinge copy. Its still sealed.

[sukothai]

Yes, but my question is did Sony take those two "alternative mixes" as well as Blind Man that appear on the original SACD directly from the original DVDA release?

I haven't done a detailed comparison of the alternative mixes on the 2003 SACD with the DVD-A, but I have noticed some sound queues on the SACD alternative Lazy mix that led me to think it came from the DVD-A mix. I'd say there is a good chance it is the DVD-A mix. I doubt if any watermarking would be passed through.

[Neb-Maat-Re]

The only audio bonus track on DVD-A is Blind Man that would be watermarked. Since the track was also used on the 2003 SACD there is a non-watermarked version available.

It has been suggested to me that that the 2003 SACD version of Blind Man does contain watermarking when converted back to DVD-A.

it would be out of spec for SACD.

That is what I thought would be the case - but t has been suggested otherwise.

Again the other two "bonus" tracks on the DVD-A are VIDEO and watermarking doesn't apply whatsoever.

Just to clarify, I was asking if the "alternative" mixes on the 2003 SACD could be the "standard" mixes of those two songs from the DVD-A. I know they wouldn't be from the videos.

EDIT: I have located a another conversion done by someone else back in 2009. That would pre-date the current PS3 ripping method. However, that conversion also has reports that the 3 bonus tracks trigger watermark-detecting players.

Thanks for your input, everyone.

[sukothai]

However, the general consensus seems to be that the SACD tracks shouldn't contain DVD-A watermarking.

But they do. I just confirmed it. Both of the alternative tracks on the 2003 SACD converted to DVD-A do not play past 30 seconds on a watermark honoring DVD-A player.

This also means it is a pretty good bet they came from the DVD-A mix.

- Ben

[Neb-Maat-Re]

But they do. I just confirmed it. Both of the alternative tracks on the 2003 SACD converted to DVD-A do not play past 30 seconds on a watermark honoring DVD-A player.

I agree - and it appears it's not just my conversion.

[floydflush]

The bonus tracks are definitely watermarked !!
If converted to DVD-A and played through a watermark detecting player only the main album tracks run without problem.

[JonUrban]

So that woulg suggest that the master tapes were watermarked, since an SACD doesn't care about watermarks, the only reason the audio on the SACD would have it was because it was already there.

[floydflush]

Yes, it seems so.

[ssully]

Finally heard the original Quad mix (DTS conversion from the SACD) today and:

1. I like it much better than the DVD-A 5.1 mix -- it's drier and thus more faithful to the MH I know and love.

2. The bonus 'Lazy' and 'Maybe I'm A Leo' are definitely from the DVD-A mixes. They're 5.1 (center channel is active) with same added 'verb, same instrument placement. (the DVD-A .ac3 is quite a bit louder though)

3. BUT: on the quad, there is about 12 sec of music missing from the final guitar solo in 'Lazy'! One of my favorite licks too. Verified by comparing the lengths -- it's 7:06 on the quad and 7:22 on the 'alternate mix' (which is the DVD-A 5.1 mix) . The missing section on the shorter version is 6:08 to 6:22 on the longer version. Is this a bug or a feature??

[cupboy]

...on the quad, there is about 12 sec of music missing from the final guitar solo in 'Lazy'! One of my favorite licks too. Verified by comparing the lengths -- it's 7:06 on the quad and 7:22 on the 'alternate mix' (which is the DVD-A 5.1 mix) . The missing section on the shorter version is 6:08 to 6:22 on the longer version. Is this a bug or a feature??

Someone with the quad reel or Q8 may be able to check this out.

[bmoura]

Finally heard the original Quad mix (DTS conversion from the SACD) today and:

1. I like it much better than the DVD-A 5.1 mix -- it's drier and thus more faithful to the MH I know and love.

2. The bonus 'Lazy' and 'Maybe I'm A Leo' are definitely from the DVD-A mixes. They're 5.1 (center channel is active) with same added 'verb, same instrument placement. (the DVD-A .ac3 is quite a bit louder though)

3. BUT: on the quad, there is about 12 sec of music missing from the final guitar solo in 'Lazy'! One of my favorite licks too. Verified by comparing the lengths -- it's 7:06 on the quad and 7:22 on the 'alternate mix' (which is the DVD-A 5.1 mix) . The missing section on the shorter version is 6:08 to 6:22 on the longer version. Is this a bug or a feature??

On #3, that's one reason that some of the 5.1 Surround Sound mixes differ from the '70's 4.0 Quad mixes. When things went missing, bands and artists wanted to see them return in the newer Surround releases.

[grill]

3. BUT: on the quad, there is about 12 sec of music missing from the final guitar solo in 'Lazy'! One of my favorite licks too. Verified by comparing the lengths -- it's 7:06 on the quad and 7:22 on the 'alternate mix' (which is the DVD-A 5.1 mix) . The missing section on the shorter version is 6:08 to 6:22 on the longer version. Is this a bug or a feature??

I checked a Q8 conversion. Lazy is 7:13 and that guitar solo is there starting from 5:57.

[ssully]

7:13 seems short too....checking the versions I have, the complete tune (stereo or multichannel) should be 7:20, give or take a couple of seconds.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not talking about an entire guitar solo being missing -- I'm talking about just ~12 seconds missing from the final guitar solo. If you know the tune well, the absence of those few bars is startling.

Was there more than one 4.0 mix of this, back in the day?

[grill]

I guess the Q8 transfer was done at a slightly faster speed. I compared the Q8 conversion with the DVDA and the UK SACD so I think I identified the missing part you meant. Anyway, your musical memory is excellent.

[winopener]

Yes, the two quad mixes, UK and USA, are different. The first SACD release featured the UK quad mix, the new SACD release feature the same 5.1 mix of the DVD-A. The USA quad mix is still officially unreleased in digital form, only on analog cd4, q8 or qr.

[ssully]

By 'back in the day' , I meant alternate 4.0 mixes dating from the 1970s, sorry. (I'm aware that the newer SACD features the 2002 DVD-A 5.1 mix)

So, I'd still like to know --

1) was there more than one 4.0 mix back in the day? Perhaps one with a 'complete' guitar solo and one with an edited solo?

2) is the complete solo on the UK SACD itself? If the answer to that is YES, it suggests something went wrong in converting the DSD to DTS.

3) is the solo on the Q8 complete or not? (it's unclear to me from grill's replies)

[georgeshannon]

3) Track 6 - Lazy from the Q8 is 7:06 minutes in length. The end of the song has a guitar solo starting at 5:54 and lasting until 6:54. Hope this helps to answer your question.

[grill]

The Q8 and the UK SACD are definitely different mixes. I could (imperfectly though) align those guitar solo parts in Lazy from these two mixes (marked). They are ca. 25 and 13 secs in Q8 and SACD, respectively. Btw, both transfers are 4.1.

[ssully]

I'm afraid I can't tell what the answer is, from these answers.

How about this. Here's an mp3 I've made of *just* the ~12 sec section I'm talking about. It's the part that missing from my DTS file. I've taken it from the stereo mix of Lazy (this happens to be from the DVD-A lossless stereo track,where it constitutes the audio from about 6:08 to 6:21).

http://www.mediafire.com/?eq1x9e9ofi84kkb

Is this part is to be found on the UK SACD, or the Q8, or both, or neither?

[grill]

It is only on the Q8 exactly where I marked.

[ssully]

Thanks!

[ssully]

Voting now, docking it 1 pt for the unfortunate edit in 'Lazy'.

[winopener]

By 'back in the day' , I meant alternate 4.0 mixes dating from the 1970s, sorry. (I'm aware that the newer SACD features the 2002 DVD-A 5.1 mix)

So, I'd still like to know --

1) was there more than one 4.0 mix back in the day? Perhaps one with a 'complete' guitar solo and one with an edited solo?

Yes. UK and USA quad releases are different 4.0 mixes.
Will try to dust off both version today and check out the Lazy solo on both.