DMM and Super Vinyl or the Keysor/Century hard vinyl would have been what CD4 needed to keep that carrier signal long lasting. When CD-4 is mastered and pressed correctly with no short cuts in manufacture or production, it is the best Quad on records.
Lou Dorren on his CD-4 45rpm record, and FM Quadraplex
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flavio81
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On the other hand, CD4 worked right away for me, at the first attempt (of course i had to adjust the separation pots, but that's because i just bought the demodulator!).
I didn't have to change cables, i didn't have to move the antiskate, as for the tracking angle, in fact it isn't fully correct. I don't subscribe to the "vertical angle was extremely critical", by the way, unless your setup is extremely wrong. And my cartridge wasn't a quad cartridge nor it had a Shibata. In fact, i thought it wasn't going to work at all because of the cartridge, but it did. At first attempt.
Somebody mentioned that the main reason people had problem with CD4 was because of the cable capacitance, and perhaps he was right. Also you need a half-decent tonearm, obviously.
There is an AES paper in which Saint Norio Shibata evaluates how CD4-compatible a cartridge can be, and groups them into A,B,C,D categories. Only the "D" category was unable to play back CD4 records, and believe me, the figures for the "D" cartridges were really appaling. Cartridges in category "C" didn't have Shibata styli nor fancy cantilevers or low inductances. Shibata included graphs of how those cartridges (category C) introduced nasty intermodulation distortion on the CD4 carrier... yet the demodulation circuits were able to successfully do their job.
I think as long as you have a turntable with low capacitance cables and you are able to setup your turntable so it has zero audible distortion at all parts of the record, you are practically ready for CD4.
Sadly many vinylphiles today have silly beliefs like "inner distortion is unavoidable" (thus they conform to a bad alignment), "sibilance is something you have to live with" (thus they conform to broken tonearms or mediocre catridges or lower-than-safe vertical tracking forces), "more than 1.5 g of VTF wears down the record" (thus opening a can of worms problem-wise), etc.
They also rely on antiskate to achieve proper tracking, which is a very bad practice, sadly common.
My TT was setup in a way that records played sounded perfectly with no distortions. This was enough for CD4 to work.
Doug G.
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Although I completely agree that CD-4 is not nearly as finicky as some matrix proponents insist and I even go so far as to say some of them still lie about CD-4 (since my experiences with it are so far removed from what is asserted), I don't think we want to give the impression to newcomers (I HATE the term "newbies") that you can just grab any cartridge and have it work with CD-4 because that simply isn't true.
In fact, most cartridges specified for regular stereo records will not be successful at tracking the ultrasonic frequencies. It is mainly serendipitous that some of them do and they are almost always ones with line-contact styli or other variations of the Shibata.
I also disagree with relying on anti-skate being bad practice as it was developed after it was discovered that both styli and groove walls were being worn unevenly without it. It is even more critical with CD-4 since both walls must be tracked very closely for successful tracking and demodulating.
Doug
In fact, most cartridges specified for regular stereo records will not be successful at tracking the ultrasonic frequencies. It is mainly serendipitous that some of them do and they are almost always ones with line-contact styli or other variations of the Shibata.
I also disagree with relying on anti-skate being bad practice as it was developed after it was discovered that both styli and groove walls were being worn unevenly without it. It is even more critical with CD-4 since both walls must be tracked very closely for successful tracking and demodulating.
Doug
flavio81
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Hi Doug,
Perhaps i didn't explain myself well. What i meant is that a better practice is to apply as much VTF is needed for cleanly tracking of the signals using zero antiskating, and THEN applying antiskating so stylus tip walls wear evenly over time.
As opposed to the common practice of relying on antiskating to improve tracking, particularly at light tracking forces.
Doug G.
2K Club - QQ Super Nova
Aha! OK gotcha!
Doug
Doug
how heavy do you track at before applying anti skate..
actually which cartridge do you use
flavio81
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Stanton 681 cart body with Pickering D750E stylus, which is a 0.3x0.7 mil elliptical. I track it at 2.0 grams. Specs say 0.75-1.5, but since it's a 70s stylus compliance probably has hardened a bit. It did work at 1.5g until i heard closely with headphones and detected a slight mistracking on some records. 2.0g works perfectly.
It also seems to work with CD4 but my decoder needs servicing, so i can't comment on how good is it for CD4.
Time to revive another old thread......by any chance, anyone out there have the Bean Whistle Rag CD-4 45? I must own, or at least borrow one.
[video=youtube;Ieka_UKQEe8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ieka_UKQEe8[/video]
[video=youtube;Ieka_UKQEe8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ieka_UKQEe8[/video]
I remember that one. A CD-4 Single on SoundBird record (Brad Miller's label).
Just great.
Sold my copy to Gary Thilgen years ago.
I think I might have eBay'd mine 15 years ago. I'll look tomorrow.
There really are some incredible threads here in the bowels of QQ.
Very nice performance and recording, actually.
I hope those aren't synths I heard in the middle section.
How is the quad mix?
I hope those aren't synths I heard in the middle section.
How is the quad mix?
You can get an idea of what the quad mix is like from this
[video=youtube;UfboTxWxFLo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfboTxWxFLo[/video]
Unfortunately, I don't think the test record that is used here includes the entire track.
Thanks.
That 3" vinyl moat near the center brings back memories.
?
That 3" vinyl moat near the center brings back memories.
?
ndiamone
600 Club - QQ All-Star
Does it have to be vinyl? IIRC that track is on one of the QR demo tapes I lent you when you were out here.
I was referring to the youtube of the CD-4 disc, but I think you have me confused with another cat.
I haven't been "out there" (Silicon Valley) to visit a quaddie, ever.
Not yet, at least.
I haven't been "out there" (Silicon Valley) to visit a quaddie, ever.
Not yet, at least.
That message was for me, about trying to find a copy of the 45.
I'm fairly certain none of the tapes I borrowed included that track. I thought I managed to borrow anything quad we found, but then again there were a lot of tapes we went through and that could have easily been overlooked if you think you have a copy of that on a reel. Also, we never did play any of the 1/2" stuff, although the only thing I recall you had on 1/2" that I was interested in was the Mrs. Miller outtakes.
I'll review my files though and see if that turns up somewhere, possibly I recorded in a tape and forgot that was on it.
I'm fairly certain none of the tapes I borrowed included that track. I thought I managed to borrow anything quad we found, but then again there were a lot of tapes we went through and that could have easily been overlooked if you think you have a copy of that on a reel. Also, we never did play any of the 1/2" stuff, although the only thing I recall you had on 1/2" that I was interested in was the Mrs. Miller outtakes.
I'll review my files though and see if that turns up somewhere, possibly I recorded in a tape and forgot that was on it.
Sorry Jonathan, but I do not still have the blue labeled "Bean Whistle Rag" CD-4 45. I just looked high and low. Found some interesting stuff, but no Soundbird 45. Oh well.
Sorry Jonathan, but I do not still have the blue labeled "Bean Whistle Rag" CD-4 45. I just looked high and low. Found some interesting stuff, but no Soundbird 45. Oh well.
Find any interesting quad stuff?
The only quad stuff I found was a few of those ABC Quad Jukebox EPs, an Ovation Bonnie Kolac 45, and a Columbia SQ 45 with Billy Joel on one side and Art Garfunkel on the other.
Plus all of my Beatles and Apple stuff. Should have probably sold most of it 15 years ago when it was hot.
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