HiRez Poll Cowboy Junkies - WHITES OFF THE EARTH NOW!! [SACD]

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Rate the SACD of the Cowboy Junkies - WHITES OFF THE EARTH NOW!!

  • 5:

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 4:

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 3:

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 2:

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 1: Poor Fidelity, Poor Surround, Poor Content

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    24
Dear QQers,

There has been a great deal of debate on the authenticity of the Whites Off Earth Now!! MFSL surround mix, with some going so far as to call it "fake surround." I have been recently reading these debates and posting hereabouts on the topic, but the truth is there does not seem to be any good documentation about the intent of the recording that led to the release on SACD. I therefore took it upon myself to look up the email address for Peter J. Moore, the original engineer on the project and also the man responsible in part for the surround mix, and I sent him this inquiry:

"I am on a surround sound forum where there is great debate as to whether the MSFL 5.1 mix of Whites Off Earth Now!! is a decode or an upmix. It is understood that the recording was made with a "Calrec Ambiosonic Microphone" per the liner notes. The question is, was this UHJ encoded, and if so was it properly decoded for the multichannel mix that appears on the MFSL release?"

He was kind enough to reply, and herewith is the response I received:

"The {Whites Off Earth Now!!} recording was UHJ encoded. When we decoded it for multichannel we were not happy with the result. This led to finding a better way. With some privately funded research we developed a way to "Generate Perfect Surround" or GPS as we now call it. To call it simply an Upmix does not do it justice as the many rave reviews of that SACD we have received would confirm."

-Yours Truly
Peter J. Moore

So this does answer two questions definitively: was the recording UHJ encoded, and was the MFSL release an "upmix" from a stereo master. Yes, it was a UHJ recording, and no, it was not an upmix from stereo.

Now let the debate begin: Since it was not a straight decode, does it qualify as "true" surround or "fake" surround. My opinion is that considering it was recorded using a directional technique, and since the engineer in charge feels as though the presented surround mix is a good representation of the soundstage, I think it can be called a true surround sound mix. I recently listened to the mix again critically and to me it had definite directionality from individual elements. These elements were not as isolated as when a vocal or a guitar is placed exclusively in a single channel, but neither was that the intention.

So clearly this was recorded and decoded with the intent of "real surround." And I think it sounds directional, but not discrete.

Anyone else?

Ken
 
That helps to explain how the GPS decoding came to be funded. And how the album came to be released as a Mobile Fidelity Surround Sound SACD.

I should mention that owners of the Meridian Surround Processors will find those units decode the 2 Channel tracks on this SACD very well in the processor's Ambisonic/UHJ mode. Not surprising given the encoding.
 
Yup. Fixed. Thanks. (I had to laugh though, at least I got the poll correct!)

Kind of cracked me up too. One thing though, still got to lose "the" definite article.

Thanks for all you do Jon, my life is better for it.
 
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Just listened to this disc for the first time, and I must say I'm very puzzled as to why this disc was (up)mixed for surround given that it was recorded on two-track only with such sparse instrumentation.
I like the space and the vibe of the music, but this one seems much better off being played on a turntable or in stereo on headphones.
A '6' from me.
 
Just listened to this disc for the first time, and I must say I'm very puzzled as to why this disc was (up)mixed for surround given that it was recorded on two-track only with such sparse instrumentation.
I like the space and the vibe of the music, but this one seems much better off being played on a turntable or in stereo on headphones.
A '6' from me.


Decoding a stereo ambisonic recording into surround is a far cry from upmixing. IIRC both this album and The Trinity Sessions were recorded with an ambisonic mic / system to stereo. To understand what that means, read this:

YOU ARE SURROUNDED-
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct01/articles/surroundsound3.asp

Haven't heard "Whites...", but the OD decode of The Trinity Session is a thing of beauty in surround.
 
Decoding a stereo ambisonic recording into surround is a far cry from upmixing. IIRC both this album and The Trinity Sessions were recorded with an ambisonic mic / system to stereo. To understand what that means, read this:

YOU ARE SURROUNDED-
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct01/articles/surroundsound3.asp

Haven't heard "Whites...", but the OD decode of The Trinity Session is a thing of beauty in surround.

Correct. The Whites Off the Earth Now! Multichannel SACD features a decoded Ambisonics recording. Also worth mentioning, the Stereo SACD tracks are also encoded. So you can also play the SACD through a Meridian processor with Ambisonic decoding built in or something like the Surround Master.

A fascinating SACD with several ways to play it in surround! :)
 
Decoding a stereo ambisonic recording into surround is a far cry from upmixing. IIRC both this album and The Trinity Sessions were recorded with an ambisonic mic / system to stereo. To understand what that means, read this:

YOU ARE SURROUNDED-
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct01/articles/surroundsound3.asp

Haven't heard "Whites...", but the OD decode of The Trinity Session is a thing of beauty in surround.

Ok Snood a lil tipsey and not thinking clearly - but love me some Cowboy Junkies..............

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut whaaaaaaaaaaaa?? Trinity Session in surround??

Someone please link me - hope we not talking Trinity Revisited which is awesome, but............sounds like ya not talking bout that

Snood hates being a surround noob :violin
 
Snood, it was released by MFSL i believe and run thru some processor and released as a surround disc. Not very good surround and at max it is ambient. Got rid of it, but it may be on a file here in computerland.

Ok Snood a lil tipsey and not thinking clearly - but love me some Cowboy Junkies..............

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut whaaaaaaaaaaaa?? Trinity Session in surround??

Someone please link me - hope we not talking Trinity Revisited which is awesome, but............sounds like ya not talking bout that

Snood hates being a surround noob :violin
 
Snood, it was released by MFSL i believe and run thru some processor and released as a surround disc....Got rid of it, .....
I got rid of mine too, but before it increased in value. Looks like they go for $50 used now. Not that I cared about the surround sound, it was the singing I didn't like. Sort of like Peggy Lee.
 
Looks aa though i'm late to this thread but there is a properly decoded version of this available. I havent heard this commercial faked version but the unofficial version sounds ok to me and it seems that others agree
 
so I've been playing this off and on for the last year

Today I upgraded my computer to a NVMe drive (cloned) and for some reason Foobar plays this like it was still connected to my old receiver

but guess what, it sounds even BETTER

I don't know what happened but, wow, this disc is awesome

One of the, if not the, "fullest" and "richest" frequency spectrum discs I own

State Trooper is quickly becoming one of my favorite songs

BTW, when I was young I was a huge fan of the CJ's version of Lou Reeds "Sweet Jane"
 
so I've been playing this off and on for the last year

Today I upgraded my computer to a NVMe drive (cloned) and for some reason Foobar plays this like it was still connected to my old receiver

but guess what, it sounds even BETTER

I don't know what happened but, wow, this disc is awesome

One of the, if not the, "fullest" and "richest" frequency spectrum discs I own

State Trooper is quickly becoming one of my favorite songs

BTW, when I was young I was a huge fan of the CJ's version of Lou Reeds "Sweet Jane"

^this
 
An album consisting mainly of blues/country blues covers recorded with a single Calrec Ambisonic microphone in a garage converted into a recording studio. The results were unusual interpretations with a utterly unique sound forming the beginnings of the Cowboy Junkies. More importantly, I found the surround mix to be of special character that fits the stark nature of these recordings consisting only a of vocalist, lead guitar, bass and drums.

The multichannel sound is ambient and for me the audio quality is astonishing. The spatial aspects of the surround field are expressively very open allowing for exquisite separation and detail. The first thing of notice is the very deep and rich sound of the bass (I shut my subwoofer off…..no need for it). The lead guitar work from Michael Timmins is played with economy that occasionally resonates with a sharp, crisp tone (listen to Bruce Springsteen’s “State Trooper” with it’s chilling effect). Margo Timmins vocals are beautifully expressed in a quiet voice but haunting quality.

These recordings have a certain intimacy that are well captured in my highly immersive listening experience. Over the years my views on “Whites Off Earth Now” have not changed: I find this SACD release of the album to be a musical and sonic delight.
 
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So, when Silverline does an upmix it is horrific, but when MFSL does it we love it. Got it.

I have the original vinyl of this and love the album, so I will have to seek this one out, but I am puzzled at best by what I am reading. Especially by Peter Moore's explanation. It's not an upmix, it's... ugh... something else. We gave it initials so you know it's awesome. And the bass is so loud that we have to shut off our subs. Coolness. :cool:

I do look forward to comparing it to the vinyl though. But I'm skeptical.
 
Nimbus Records who recorded extensively in Ambisonics [all Classical] released some 4.0 versions of their recordings on MLP DVD~A 4.0 a few years ago and they were all rear ambience .......exactly what one would expect from a single calrec microphone.

IMO, what MoFi released IS absolutely indicative of the Ambisonic format ..... Ambience in the rears.

A scrumptious recording, IMO.
 
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Nimbus Records who recorded extensively in Ambisonics [all Classical] released some 4.0 versions of their recordings on MLP DVD~A 4.0 a few years ago and they were all rear ambience .......exactly what one would expect from a single calrec microphone.

IMO, what MoFi released IS absolutely indicative of the Ambisonic format ..... Abience in the rears.

A scrumptious recording, IMO.
But the engineer said they rejected the Ambisonic decode and did their own thing.
 
But the engineer said they rejected the Ambisonic decode and did their own thing.

Maybe so, but the end result was basically the very same ambience in the rear. When a single CALREC mike is used there are esentially NO multitracks, per se, to choose from. Cowboy Junkies album "The Trinity Sessions" was recorded DDD 16bit/44.1
with a single calrec microphone as well but when Analogue Productions released it a few years ago as a STEREO SACD I was able to decode it Ambisonically via my Meridian 861 v.6 pre/pro which has a built in Ambisonic decoder and essentially what I got was 'ambience in the rear.'

What you might want to do is utilize a more surroundy DSP mode on your receiver which might give you more rear envelopment but you'd have to play it in stereo to achieve that effect. Try it....you might like it MORE!
 
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