What's wrong with Dolby Pro-Logic II?

[kfbkfb]

Any idea why Dolby Pro-Logic II Music Mode "encoding" never caught on?

From the Dolby website:
When broadcasters encode their stereo signals specifically for Dolby Pro Logic II playback,
it allows them to deliver surround and localization effects over stereo services that are
more like discrete 5.1 transmissions...

Kirk Bayne

 

[chucky3042]

The encode sound very non stereo in that it can sound like its in a tunnel

 

[J. PUPSTER]

The encode sound very non stereo in that it can sound like its in a tunnel

SM-V2
Still got my eye on you Chucky

 

[chucky3042]

SM-V2
Still got my eye on you Chucky

Creepy....use your wide angle lens!

 

[~dave~~wave~]

The encode sound very non stereo in that it can sound like its in a tunnel

On my system, once it's dialed in well for 5.1, there are enough adjustments in the DPL-II menu to construct a very satisfying surround field from most of my stereo material.
Varies by title, but seldom do I switch back to straight stereo.

One example I can think of is the Santana Lotus live concert Quad, which is not very discrete in the rears.
When I spin it, I prefer to switch to the hi-res stereo layer and listen in DPL- II Music.
I have a full-range center speaker with a big woofer, and like anchoring the sound stage bass elements there, with a wide front L-R spread.
Often what the processor steers to the rears seems more discrete than ambient.
Works to my ears in my room on my rig on most of my collection, your mileage may vary.

Chucky, of course, preaches that the fifth channel is the devil's work, a phantom center from a proper quad setup is best.

 

[chucky3042]

On my system, once it's dialed in well for 5.1, there are enough adjustments in the DPL-II menu to construct a very satisfying surround field from most of my stereo material.
Varies by title, but seldom do I switch back to straight stereo.

One example I can think of is the Santana Lotus live concert Quad, which is not very discrete in the rears.
When I spin it, I prefer to switch to the hi-res stereo layer and listen in DPL- II Music.
I have a full-range center speaker with a big woofer, and like anchoring the sound stage bass elements there, with a wide front L-R spread.
Often what the processor steers to the rears seems more discrete than ambient.
Works to my ears in my room on my rig on most of my collection, your mileage may vary.

Chucky, of course, preaches that the fifth channel is the devil's work, a phantom center from a proper quad setup is best.

The center channel truly is the root of all evil!

 

[ar surround]

The center channel truly is the root of all evil!

Not necessarily Chuck. Despite me being on my fourth center channel speaker with each one having been bigger than the previous, I've finally developed the Holy Grail solution. I've decided to obtain another 53 inch tall behemoth to match my front speakers and cover it with Harry Potter's Cloak of Invisibility so that I can see the TV. The only remaining due diligence is to contact Rowling Enterprises to determine if the cloak is sonically transparent, because we all know how those speaker grill cloths can muffle high frequencies.

Regarding the initial question as to why Dolby Pro Logic Music encoding never caught on: If you look at many of the Silverline DVD-A's you will see a little note saying that the discs will decode nicely in PLII for those who do not have a 5.1 compatible player.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Any idea why Dolby Pro-Logic II Music Mode "encoding" never caught on?
Kirk Bayne

One big reason was that encoded material was not the main intent of DPL II. This was a collaboration between Jim Fosgate & Dolby Labs to offer an improvement over regular Dolby Pro Logic decoding when playing stereo sources. It is a much improved step up from that. Rapidly other formats of digital discrete took hold so there was no point in trying to promote DPL II encoded music or movies.

As has been mentioned years ago in post around here somewhere DPL II can be adjusted for very similar decoding to Sansui QS. That would be music mode with dimension set all the way to the back, panorama off & center width set to wide so no center front it is extremely close to QS. Using test signal made in Adobe Audition I hear very little leakage except for some bass and playing the Quadrafile QS test record verifies this. In practice I usually set the center width to mid point as it's just not about adding something center front but what is also removed from the two front speakers. I also like to use the center back X option for the same reason. The Panorama control does not offer wrap around surround similar to QS Synthesis or Tate 101A surround mode. But it is pretty easy to rip music, apply out of phase cross blending of -7.6 dB in Adobe Audition whatever. Then you will have that horse shoe 240 deg wrap around effect just like QS stereo synthesis.

Per Chucky:

The encode sound very non stereo in that it can sound like its in a tunnel

I can't say as I ever listned to any music DPL II encoded. Can you name some titles? In trying to learn about DPL II coefficients I find the available material rather obtuse & confusing. I have never found a patent relevant to that either. Could you shed some light on the encoding parameters?

 

[JanBakker]

One big reason was that encoded material was not the main intent of DPL II. This was a collaboration between Jim Fosgate & Dolby Labs to offer an improvement over regular Dolby Pro Logic decoding when playing stereo sources. It is a much improved step up from that. Rapidly other formats of digital discrete took hold so there was no point in trying to promote DPL II encoded music or movies.

As has been mentioned years ago in post around here somewhere DPL II can be adjusted for very similar decoding to Sansui QS. That would be music mode with dimension set all the way to the back, panorama off & center width set to wide so no center front it is extremely close to QS. Using test signal made in Adobe Audition I hear very little leakage except for some bass and playing the Quadrafile QS test record verifies this. In practice I usually set the center width to mid point as it's just not about adding something center front but what is also removed from the two front speakers. I also like to use the center back X option for the same reason. The Panorama control does not offer wrap around surround similar to QS Synthesis or Tate 101A surround mode. But it is pretty easy to rip music, apply out of phase cross blending of -7.6 dB in Adobe Audition whatever. Then you will have that horse shoe 240 deg wrap around effect just like QS stereo synthesis.

Per Chucky:


I can't say as I ever listned to any music DPL II encoded. Can you name some titles? In trying to learn about DPL II coefficients I find the available material rather obtuse & confusing. I have never found a patent relevant to that either. Could you shed some light on the encoding parameters?

Thanks for this, I tried this on my travel set (Logitech Z-5500) and it sounds much better than the standard setting. On my home rig I never use PLII because it sounds too narrow and the low level sort of drowns so will try that on my home-rig as well, until now I always use the all channel stereo setting (Onkyo TX-NR808).

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Thanks for this, I tried this on my travel set (Logitech Z-5500) and it sounds much better than the standard setting. On my home rig I never use PLII because it sounds too narrow and the low level sort of drowns so will try that on my home-rig as well, until now I always use the all channel stereo setting (Onkyo TX-NR808).

I listened to it for years with Dimension about mid point and panorama on. When I got a Proton SD-1000 alongside I did some test signal material to compare DPL II with SD-1000. It wasn't long before I was sold on the settings for DPL II I mentioned earlier. The Proton SD-1000 sounds very much like a Fosgate Model 5 & all the other deoders that were mainly for video & kinda sorta had some music modes thrown in. Now the SD-1000 really comes to life usinf a the center back output. Still the my Anthem is more flexible, has all the inputs and is digital clean so I tend to use that.

Let me know what you discover when trying the new DPL II settings at home. Hopefully it is easy to adjust on yor Onkyo. I notice many newer recievers have balance and surround modes buried in the set up menus and hard to adjust on the fly.

 

[JanBakker]

Would be a blast in surround, what a voice!! When I heard this for the first time I thought she was black, she has that kind of powerful voice, heard this on the way to Venice with collegues, 2 old Mercedes Benz (20 years old) because we wanted to go to Italy just over the border from where we were in Austria and then we saw Venice on the streetsighns, looked at eachother and said f*** it's only 500 km let's go, that feelin..........

Edit: sorry wrong thread, intoxicated...........Listening to now.. in fake quad...is the one it should be in

 

[JanBakker]

I listened to it for years with Dimension about mid point and panorama on. When I got a Proton SD-1000 alongside I did some test signal material to compare DPL II with SD-1000. It wasn't long before I was sold on the settings for DPL II I mentioned earlier. The Proton SD-1000 sounds very much like a Fosgate Model 5 & all the other deoders that were mainly for video & kinda sorta had some music modes thrown in. Now the SD-1000 really comes to life usinf a the center back output. Still the my Anthem is more flexible, has all the inputs and is digital clean so I tend to use that.

Let me know what you discover when trying the new DPL II settings at home. Hopefully it is easy to adjust on yor Onkyo. I notice many newer recievers have balance and surround modes buried in the set up menus and hard to adjust on the fly.

I listened to it for years with Dimension about mid point and panorama on. When I got a Proton SD-1000 alongside I did some test signal material to compare DPL II with SD-1000. It wasn't long before I was sold on the settings for DPL II I mentioned earlier. The Proton SD-1000 sounds very much like a Fosgate Model 5 & all the other deoders that were mainly for video & kinda sorta had some music modes thrown in. Now the SD-1000 really comes to life usinf a the center back output. Still the my Anthem is more flexible, has all the inputs and is digital clean so I tend to use that.

Let me know what you discover when trying the new DPL II settings at home. Hopefully it is easy to adjust on yor Onkyo. I notice many newer recievers have balance and surround modes buried in the set up menus and hard to adjust on the fly.

Thanks, will let you know if I remember my Onkyo is from 2010 I think so not so new anymore.

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Earlier I said I don't think I have ever listned to DPL II encoded music. Then I ran across this yesterday:

This was taken from a discrete rip (DVD-Audio) of the 4-channel (Quadraphonic) master tape of DSOTM done sometime earlier last decade. I seperated each channel into separate .wavs and down-mixed them through a Pro-Logic II encoder.

No way to verify if it really was a true DPL II encode. But it does sound a little weired on PC Yamaha speakers in stereo. I will check it later on the big rig.

 

[JanBakker]

Anybody else agree we miss the thanks button? I like a lot of posts but it would be nice to thank someone without reacting to a post

 

[fizzywiggs41]

The center channel truly is the root of all evil!

I agree .

I find the centre can affect one's (mine)..... auditory perception of a good surround mix via the quadrant .

For me.....the four quadrant speakers tell my ears whether or not it's a good surround mix . The centre can interfere..............most especially if it's too fn loud. I turned mine facing backwards and then threw a towel over it.

 

[fizzywiggs41]

Earlier I said I don't think I have ever listned to DPL II encoded music. Then I ran across this yesterday:




No way to verify if it really was a true DPL II encode. But it does sound a little weired on PC Yamaha speakers in stereo. I will check it later on the big rig.

Strange that pic. I don't think I'd upmix my DSOTM DVDA for matrix, but to each his/her own.




Don't know how relevant to the enquiry this is , but the .....

Aphex/Proton decoder used the Pink Floyd DSOTM cd as a demo for their SQ decoding in 85/86.

 

[chucky3042]

Here is a possible one.

Really great stuff with Sheryl Crow doing a recent Burt Bacharach composition (about his autistic daughter who did suicide. Burt's in his 90,s here. Its listed as Dolby and you can hear excessive echo or ambience in the stereo.



I had another one that has dissapeared from Youtube - again Sheryl Crow with Burt doing -"One less bell to answer", wish I could find it but its on my other computer that just died, sounded like it was recorded in a tunnel.

 

[chucky3042]

here is one
Trouble - Lindsey Buckingham (HD / Dolby Pro Logic II)



Once again you can hear excessive ambience/ echo stuff

 

[chucky3042]

and now in vanilla stereo

 

[Sonik Wiz]

Ooops. I'm having trouble with the Lindsey Buckingham video Trouble. It just says video unavailable. I will look for on youtube after this.
To be able to do a DPL II encode you would need to start off with a discrete mix. I am not aware of anything Buckingham has done in quad before. If so, where did the original discrete come from?