Why DV Didn't Select Blu-ray Audio

[sjcorne]

Using Micro SD as the delivery format for Hi-Res files has actually already been done - they call it 'MQS SD'.

Techmoan did a video on it a few years ago:

 

[ubertrout]

This thread is probably making Michael want to jump through his monitor and shake something or someone. His main customer base, the customers that have been supporting Dutton-Vocalion since its inception, long before we discovered him and his affection for surround music, are primarily purchasing his product because it plays in their CD PLAYERS. If he were to change and ask those folks to instead go out and get a BluRay player, no matter how cheap it might be, is an instant way to lose a large portion of his clientele.

Folks on "The Internet" always profess to know what's best and/or better for companies and corporations, but in reality those entities know what their customers want, and in this case, the 4.0 SACD layer is basically a "gift" for us, the motley crew here at QQ and the few other wackos that like this stuff. The CD layer is what it's all about at D-V, and that, my friends, is the heart of the matter.

I think/hope he knows that most of these quarter-baked ideas are just that, and not meant to be taken seriously. Single disc issues for surround are on SACD, boxsets and other reissues in deluxe format use blu-ray. Pretty much anything else is just a bunch of nerds tinkering on the internet.

 

[timbre4]

I get the reality of the backwards compatibility factor. Here’s another reality; the value of these discs become such that the last thing I’m going to do is risk loss or damage carrying them around ‘cause they play like CDs. They don’t leave the building and the office cats are charged with defending them.

 

[Q-Eight]

This thread kinda reminds me of a joke about women. The joke goes: "Women don't burp or fart. Therefore they must bitch or else they'll explode."
People bitched that there was no multichannel releases, so they gave us DTS and Dolby Digital.

"Whaaaaaaa! That's not good enough!"

Then came SACD and DVD-Audio.

"Whaaaaaaa! That's not good enough!"

Blu-Ray and Atmos and God knows what's next....

"Whaaaaaaa! That's not good enough!"

Well then what the hell do you want? Shy of reanimating the decomposed corpse of Johnny Winter and having him play live in your own living room, there doesn't seem to be any pleasing some people. It's like that dried-up old hag I used to have to work with. She'd bitch about a sunny day.


FFS, we're getting vintage Quad mixes in a Lossless format in 2020. They're being mastered properly using the best sources possible and delivered in a nice little package with groovy liner notes at a discount price. That's nothing short of a fucking miracle. Some of y'all just need to clam up and don't bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[Simon A]

The following is not directed at one person, so please don't take it as a personal attack.

I find it interesting that almost at the same time, people have chosen to use threads about Vocalion releases to bash SACD, both here and at SH.tv (where one member in particular just loves denigarting Mr. Dutton's mastering). I guess people are really getting bored so they behave like this.

I personally do not have any interest in the Atmos format yet you don't find me in Atmos related threads purposely antagonizing people whom love and enjoy it. The same goes for the whole Record Store Day phenomenon. In these challenging times, I am glad others have something more that brings pleasure into their lives.

Other reissue companies have been using SACD before Vocalion did like Mobile Fidelity and Analogue Productions. Why are people focusing on Vocalion? I hope none of these companies will stop releasing SACDs and opt for a new format. That is my personal opinion, obviously and my favourite format. I understand that as long as companies put out competing formats that this argument will always come up. At the end of the day, each of us has a choice on whether to purchase a product or not based on the format it's released on.

I've been buying releases from Vocalion for over fifteen years now I hope I get to do so for another fifteen years. I enjoy the many CD releases I own from them and even more so their SACD releases.

 

[jaybird100]

One advantage of a DV (type) company using Blu-ray (or DVD)
is the multiple (possibly Surround Sound) soundtrack option
on both formats.

For example, a DVD could contain the (1970s Quad) content as
4.0 Dolby Digital, 4.0 DTS and 2 channel (2.0 DD or 2.0 DTS or
2.0 PCM).

Blu-ray could also add 4.0 Dolby TrueHD and/or 4.0 DTS-MA.

An additional option would be to involve Involve Audio
(been waiting to type that) by providing a QS encoded
version of the (1970s Quad) content for the 2 channel
soundtrack.

This QS encoded content could be decoded using DynaQuad,
(original) Dolby Surround, no logic QS or full logic QS.


Kirk Bayne

Better yet, receiver and amplifier manufacturers should include Involve's SM circuitry in their products, allowing for that 2-channel layer, if QS-encoded, to deliver the goods with loads of separation. In addition, receivers and pre-pro units should also include multichannel analog inputs for those of us who still have old-school universal players that don't have HDMI outputs. And let's not forget a phono input! Music enhancement is important, too!

 

[Eggplant]

I actually haven't had a single SACD fail yet, tempting fate I know!

I have.
Neither Elton John discs GYBR nor CFATBDC play reliably on either my Sony Pioneer. Though at first it was dirty lenses on my hardware, but It’s not. GYBR now won’t play in MC on either.

Bricked and irreplaceable.
Out $100.
I would be very surprised if there weren't more in my collection.

 

[Eggplant]

While I still think that Blu-ray Audio is great, a super fantastic format in fact. A Blu-ray disc can hold so much and all in high - Rez! I'm still happy with DV's use of SACD, compatibility of hybrid SACD's with a regular CD player is important and cost is important as well. I would of thought that most people would have a Blu-ray player by now but what I'm reading here is that most don't. So that's another reason to go with SACD.

It’s hard to argue with something affordable that works.
In a perfect world where BD’s didn’t rot or charge big up-front licensing fees and allowed easy, quick, headless audio playback, I’d prefer a one-format-for-all approach. But we don’t live there, as it’s becoming clear. And BD’s are now far from state-of-the-art either.

And frankly, discs are over. Outside of collector box sets and niche markets like ours, there’s no interest or need for them anymore. I don’t want them either. They’re “stuff,” things to be stored and dusted and worried about. I want lots less of that now.

We’ll see if the Atmos/Tidal streaming model works for multichannel. I’m skeptical, but history shows only suckers bet against Dolby Labs. Yes, it’s annoying how streamed content disappears regularly. But it also reappears elsewhere equally often — and sometimes sporting a free upgrade to better quality. For me, this model without the expense of discs and their management is a welcome tradeoff.

 

[timbre4]

The Dutton Vocalon releases are always very well done and I do support them to get quads. So please pump the brakes that my comment was any kind of attack. The point I was making was that given the investment and the inevitable rarity when they go out of print simply informs where these precious discs get played. In fact, what I said is also true of rare CDs; I will make 3 copies for playback in vehicles and/or play that music on iPad jukebox if that makes sense for the setting.

 

[fredblue]

several responses have summed up pretty much how i feel already (DV's existing customer base comprising of CD buyers is really the clincher imho., why would they alienate them!) i will briefly just say as a former "DVD-A til i die" person who fell for the anti-SACD hype, once i tried stuff like the EJ SACDs and realised how good the format could be for surround, i was hooked and SACD has to my surprise become my favourite "modern-day" surround music format, you just pop it in with your crazy flipper fingers and the player does the rest!

above all, i hope DV continue to utilise it for their new releases and to long exploit the Surround aspect in particular!! come on Papa Dutton and the Elves! lets be 'avin' a corona-defying bitchin' batch of mega-Quaddy SACDs - a biyatch of EPIC (Columbia, PIR and T-Neck) proportions!! preferably this side of Chrimbo, pretty please with Atmos
on top!!

 

[Scott65]

several responses have summed up pretty much how i feel already (DV's existing customer base comprising of CD buyers is really the clincher imho., why would they alienate them!) i will briefly just say as a former "DVD-A til i die" person who fell for the anti-SACD hype, once i tried stuff like the EJ SACDs and realised how good the format could be for surround, i was hooked and SACD has to my surprise become my favourite "modern-day" surround music format, you just pop it in with your crazy flipper fingers and the player does the rest!

above all, i hope DV continue to utilise it for their new releases and to long exploit the Surround aspect in particular!! come on Papa Dutton and the Elves! lets be 'avin' a corona-defying bitchin' batch of mega-Quaddy SACDs - a biyatch of EPIC (Columbia, PIR and T-Neck) proportions!! preferably this side of Chrimbo, pretty please with Atmos
on top!!

I held back on sacds and Dvd-a until an affordable mulltidisc player became available in Australia (2006) and have enjoyed both equally since( and multi-channel blu rays too!).

 

[Eggplant]

Again, which cheap Sony Blu-Rays will play Multichannel SACD’s thru HDMI? Not a one I’ve seen mentions that capability. I already own two of them.

 

[kfbkfb]

(USA) Sony BDP-s6700 plays the MCH-SACD layer and
outputs it thru HDMI (the package doesn't mention
MCH-SACD capability, I checked the online manual
before I bought it).

After checking the online manual, I bought a (USA)
Pioneer VSX-534 A/V receiver, which will decode a
MCH-SACD datastream input via HDMI.

This is all for my simplified Home Theater setup, with
just a UHD Blu-ray player, a Blu-ray+SACD player, an
old HD-DVD player for DVDs and a VHS VCR.


Kirk Bayne

 

[kfbkfb]

I prefer lossless audio systems, but since DVD Video players don't offer
4 channel PCM (and many early players don't pass thru the DTS
datastream), using 4.0 Dolby Digital would be a way to provide
discrete Quad (from the 1970s Quad masters) for a large number of
people (maybe use the marketing model of UHD Blu-rays, include a
Blu-ray of the same movie in the same package, except that 1 disc
could be a Blu-ray Audio w/a lossless soundtrack + a DVD w/ 4.0 DD).


From 1995 - Minimum configuration for PCM for "complete transparency":

http://meridian-audio.info/public/coding2[2520].pdf#page=19^^^
"PCM 20 bits 58 kHz"


Kirk Bayne

 

[Eggplant]

(USA) Sony BDP-s6700 plays the MCH-SACD layer and
outputs it thru HDMI (the package doesn't mention
MCH-SACD capability, I checked the online manual
before I bought it).

After checking the online manual, I bought a (USA)
Pioneer VSX-534 A/V receiver, which will decode a
MCH-SACD datastream input via HDMI.

So the situation is that only very specific receiver and AVR models do it, and then hide that fact deep in the manual? If modern, mainstream equipment won’t do it, I’ll just have to pass.

 

[kap'n krunch]

Again, which cheap Sony Blu-Rays will play Multichannel SACD’s thru HDMI? Not a one I’ve seen mentions that capability. I already own two of them.

https://www.220-electronics.com/sony-bdp-s6700-region-free-blu-ray-player-4k-smart-wifi-3d.html

 

[atrocity]

So the situation is that only very specific receiver and AVR models do it, and then hide that fact deep in the manual? If modern, mainstream equipment won’t do it, I’ll just have to pass.

I think it's actually common, just not talked about much because relatively few care or understand.

Or at least that's my assumption, having had three different receivers going back to 2000 or so that happily accepted multichannel DSD bitstreams. The first was a Pioneer that pre-dated HDMI and took the bitstream over Firewire. Can't remember what silly name Pioneer gave it, but it paired nicely with their Elite universal player of that era.

 

[kfbkfb]

There's always an option to create a new MCH disc format:

Maybe a CD-ROM with Dolby Digital Plus (at the highest
data rate) in order to take advantage of digital audio
codec advances since (original) Dolby Digital and DTS
were developed over 2 decades ago.


Kirk Bayne

 

[Eggplant]

There's always an option to create a new MCH disc format:

Just what the world needs in 2020: another disc format.
Yes, I’m sure that’s the answer.